Billy Gunn. I'm curious. Seriously. He's not like world title material or anything, but he's really not that bad in the ring. He's one of the better sellers around, and makes most of his moves look good (just not his finisher, and if he went back to the Tornado DDT that would be fine too). Anyway, he's not Hogan, he doesn't "hold people down" as far as I can tell, and he's not bad in the ring. I just don't see why most people consider him so terrible.
Okay, here's my take. And keep in mind this isn't the case with EVERYONE, all right? And keep in mind I'm neither defending nor bashing Billy Gunn.
Part of the "I hate Billy Gunn" situation is something that pervades the 'net as whole for just about everything out there -- heck, I see it more often than not in my area of "expertise;" Comics.
It's a combination of "The Big Lie" and an online mob mentality. The Big Lie phenomenon came from, IIRC, Richard Belzer. He said if someone repeats something enough, no matter how untrue, more and more people will believe said statement and then those people will repeat said statement, getting more and more people to believe it and so on.
You don't like Billy Gunn or the Undertaker? Keep harping on how much you hate him with a variety of reasons -- no matter how accurate -- and other people will dislike him, too.
The second part of the equation comes with WHO is making these statements. I think it was Scott Keith and Dave Meltzer/Bryan Alvarez who both started with anti-Billy Gunn rhetoric in their material when Gunn returned last summer. I'm not implying they have anything against Billy, I'm just saying they don't care for him personally. Nothing wrong with that, to each his own.
At any rate, because Keith's and Meltzer's audience basically has a good degree of overlap, many fans took on the mentality "Well if Dave and Keith are saying this, it MUST be true." It's funny, one thing Gunn's critics are still stuck on is the fact that he pulled off a sloppy move against Chris Benoit during their feud -- something both Keith and Alvarez took MORTAL offense to and carried on about at great length in their material. And that is ALWAYS brought up when online fans criticise him. No doubt 95% of those very same critics wouldn't have even noticed the slip-up unless Keith and Alvarez pointed it out.
Many fans repeat "expert" opinions -- even if, deep down they don't agree or care -- for fear of being made fun of or considered less knowledgable by others and wanting to be part of the "majority."
I would bet $20 that many people that get enjoyment out of bashing Gunn were huge fans of his during the New Age Outlaws days or really didn't mind seeing him in the ring at all up until they heard otherwise.
In short, I think a lot of online fans let other people determine their opinions for them.
Jason Baldwin Head Writer, 4-Color Review And the guy behind PAPER CUTS! TRUTHFUL comic book commentary Every Thursday, only at 4-Color Review http://4colorreview.com
I never really liked Billy Gunn, but I never minded him when he was a "Smoking Gunn". Then there was the mess that was Rockabilly, and I couldn't stand the gimmick, and that transmuted into a dislike of the man playing him.
Now, yes, I did like the Outlaws. I thought that both guys complemented each other very well, and they fit very well into the tag division.
Then Billy got a big singles push and showed (to me anyway) that he didn't really fit in the singles divisions. This is before I'd consider myself a "smark", and even then I could tell that he was just another bland, gassed up blonde guy, and nobody really special. It didn't help that he almost killed everyone he wrestled after his shoulder surgery.
I don't mind him in his current gimmick.
I could care less about Billy the tag wrestler. Good for him. It hides his weaknesses and plays to his strengths. I don't like Billy the singles wrestler.
However, I think the average internet fan -- and I'm not being condescending or elitist or anything here, I'm far from an expert on pro wrestling -- wouldn't have given it a second thought had Keith and Alvarez gone overboard with their criticisms.
And you have to admit, both guys tend to go into histrionics about certain individuals -- Keith with the Undertaker, Alvarez with the Big Show.
Originally posted by Excalibur05
It didn't help that he almost killed everyone he wrestled after his shoulder surgery
Even though I said my above example is not entirely the case with every Billy Gunn detractor, you're proving my point for me here by making the exact criticism I was talking about above.
Provide me with more than three concrete examples of how he "almost killed everyone he wrestled" and I'll be quiet.
Jason Baldwin Head Writer, 4-Color Review And the guy behind PAPER CUTS! TRUTHFUL comic book commentary Every Thursday, only at 4-Color Review http://4colorreview.com
About he botched Tilt-a-whirl slam that "no one would notice unless Keith/Meltzer pointed it out..."
Not to sound totaly "jerk-off"ian but I WAS THERE LIVE! Me and the incomparable Quez were on the second level of the BJCC at Armageddon. They were kind of catty corner seats with the enterance, which ended up being pretty cool seats. We had a perfect view of Billy screwing up that slam and almost ending Benoit's career. Probably the scariest moment I ever experienced at a wreslting event.
I don't collect tapes so I can't give you specific examples of his screwing up. But I know for sure he's messed up a Gorilla Press before, in that "post surgery" window. I believe it was before the "Benoit incident" because I told myself "He needs to slow down or he's going to kill someone..." But I gaurantee you most his matches after the surgery were pretty sloppy. He came back way to soon.
As for the NAO, Billy was entertaining in that group because back then he actually had some good offense (Remember him doing a victory roll on Animal once to get out of the Doomsday device..very cool.) and he had the Roaddog to back him up on the mic. Billy, even though he has the WWF look is basically a "tag team wrestler." He's better teamed up with someone, than by himself.
Nothing is better than X-pac! It's all in the inflection...
It was pretty obvious Papercuts!, I can't remember but I think the crowd started a "You fucked up" chant. I have the tape I'll have to take a look again to see exactly WHAT the move was (something like a tilt-a-whirl backbreaker I think), and damn near dropped him on his head. Then I think he was close to doing something similar the night after on RAW.
For me, I didn't mind the Smoking Gunns, The Outlaws were good at the beginning, then they got stale and I it went downhill from there for my person likings of Billy Gunn. He SUCKS as a single wrestler. (He also seemed to blow up pretty quickly (not as quick as Tazz though))
And the Ambigously Gay Team does nothing for me right now, I'm just left wondering why they're on my TV Screen every time I see them. (Although that Kane headband skit WAS funny)
That doesn't change my point in the slightest. Internet fans would not have the hive-mind dislike for him if Keith, Meltzer et. al, wouldn't harp on him so much. Obviously the casual fan doesn't care about him being "injury prone" (what appears to be the leading reason why internet fans don't like him) because he's over with them. They cheer for him -- heck, Alvarez used to carry on on WOL about how he couldn't understand why the crowd popped for him so much.
Originally posted by lmo911
I don't collect tapes so I can't give you specific examples of his screwing up. But I know for sure he's messed up a Gorilla Press before, in that "post surgery" window. I believe it was before the "Benoit incident" because I told myself "He needs to slow down or he's going to kill someone..." But I gaurantee you most his matches after the surgery were pretty sloppy. He came back way to soon
To play Devil's Advocate here and simplfy your argument, you said Billy was sloppy when he came back (I don't think he has been in quite some time). According to your memory, he messed up TWICE, once being the highly-publicized "near murder" of Benoit.
Therefore the anti-Billy Gunn sentiment is justified, even though he didn't do it before he was injured and hasn't since?
Another poster said he nearly killed EVERYONE he wrestled when he came back. If that's the case, it should be pretty easy to recall, right? What did he do to Eddy Guerrerro that nearly ended his life?
If he had the track record of Ahmed Johnson, I would say your opinon -- if that is your opinion: "Billy Gunn is sloppy and injures everyone" -- is justified. But he doesn't.
Again, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here.
If he had such a FLAGRANT track record of being sloppy, it should be pretty easy to recall his screwups -- like with Ahmed Johnson or Rob Van Dam. Where's all the outcry over Van Dam, who injured three people in three weeks?
EVERY wrestler makes mistakes in the ring, more often than not. They're only human. I think everyone pays close attention to what Gunn does because people like Alvarez and Keith have made them hyper-sensitive to what he does.
Jason Baldwin Head Writer, 4-Color Review And the guy behind PAPER CUTS! TRUTHFUL comic book commentary Every Thursday, only at 4-Color Review http://4colorreview.com
There *is* a hive mentality at work. It's hard to be blind to it once you see it. I attempt to do my bit by both (a) constantly repeating things that are the opposite of what the hive mentality says, when I think what they say is true; (b) cultivating my OWN particular hive with my own constantly repeated comments. I'm a little more insidious, however - I tend to constantly repeat *positive* things, so they usually fly underneath the smarky smark smark radar and I don't get called on it as much. Now I'm not gonna point out THOSE examples 'cause if you don't see 'em I'm not gonna call attention to 'em ;-) but I will say that the one that DOES get me curious looks is my constant praise of the Undertaker. I should add at this point that I'm not necessarily just saying any of these things to gain a cult following or "influence the product" or even any other agenda you can think of except that I actually *believe* what I'm saying so it's easy for me to do it. After all, when you're only telling the truth, there's a whole lot less to keep track of, right? At the same time, I realise that I tend to get a better/bigger response when I actually MAKE opinions, so of course it influences my OWN "product."
It's not just Dave or Wade or me or Scott, though. Hang out in any "community" long enough and you'll spot all the patterns. DVDVR, tOA, Delphi, even here (hive mind at work: "Raven is really smart, the NWO should say 'mission accomplished,' I can't WAIT for the Canadian Horsemen, I want to marry Benoit and let him violate me" All of which I have to read on here on a daily basis)
Hmm, what was my point? Oh yeah. Don't dismiss PaperCuts! so easily - his words carry that ring of truth.
i remember when austin had to find a partner to face UT and Kane with and vince had Rock/Angle and someone else wrapped up in a fight..... austin came out to the ring.... stood there looking at the brothers... then the dx music hit.... who is it?... who is it?... out comes bad ass.... nobody expected that... it got a huge pop... the two (austin and bad ass) stared at each other then attacked UT and Kane... that was a kewl moment.... of course i dont remember how the match was....
I AM THE BEST there is, was and ever will be!!!! Dont you wish that you were me??? no?.... i've got two words for ya!
EDIT: Sorry guys , I think may have gotten a little carried away with this post... been kind of on edge today. But I'll leave to probably be ripped to shreds.
Personaly I find it disturbing that you would not consider three (between Me and Loosie) seperate "hey I almost killed someone in front of millions of people because I didn't wrestle safely" moments NOT enough evidence. By using moves that his injury would not allow him to do safely or to his best ability, Billy (and the WWF for allowing him to do them) showed a pretty scary disregard for the safety of the other wrestler in the ring. This isn't D'lo screwing up the running powerbomb. This is someone who knew he was injured, knew he probably shouldn't have been doing those moves and did them anyway. Personally I think this is one of my major issues with Billy Gunn and probably a lot of peoples too.
Speaking of, How many Billy matches do you actually remember? Where's your Evidence that Keith is influencing these people? Me and Loosie have three specific examples of exactly why we don't like Billy Gunn that have nothing to do with Keith's ranting and I could bring up others like his KOTR match against X-pac(the crowd that slowly dies as the match progressed and the slow/sloppy top rope Famasser spot totally ruined that match.) and some of his more recent wrestling (Everything except his matchs against Tajiri and Dreamer on Heat basically.)...you have none! Just some conjecture! Maybe most of these Internet wrestling fans have the same examples as I do or just haven't been impressed by his ring work. They may actually agree with Keith instead of being influenced by him! I know it's hard to believe, but I guess everyone can have one moment in the sun, can't they? And even if they were influenced by him, is it really that bad a thing? The more people we can educate to Billy's shortcomings, maybe the better. It could force him to be more entertaining (like he recently has been.) or to not take risks like he did with Benoit. I have rarely seen a tilt-a-whirl slam from Billy lately and if there is, it's usually very well done.
I can't speak for most of the internet fans, but my problems with Billy's wrestling do not stem from any recapper saying what's wrong with him. They come from my own experience. I've watched Billy for most of his WWF career (a decade of...well Billy being in the WWF.) I saw his promise when he was in the Smoking Gunns, I saw him get wasted in Rockabilly, get redeamed in my eyes in the NAO, then totally flub up his singles run and almost kill Benoit. After that much time and that much letdown, I can understand people turning their back on Billy Gunn. You ask me to give specific matches, I can't because it's all pretty much ran togeather into a dark blur of Billy failing. This is the slow degregation of an individual that I think many people had higher hopes for. And the "Benoit Incident" was the last straw for many of them. I know it was for me.
For many it is probably due to the "I want to be smart" stuff. But for me....it's not.
Nothing is better than X-pac! It's all in the inflection...
Personaly I find it disturbing that you would not consider three (between Me and Loosie) seperate "hey I almost killed someone in front of millions of people because I didn't wrestle safely" moments NOT enough evidence. By using moves that his injury would not allow him to do safely or to his best ability, Billy (and the WWF for allowing him to do them) showed a pretty scary disregard for the safety of the other wrestler in the ring. This isn't D'lo screwing up the running powerbomb. This is someone who knew he was injured, knew he probably shouldn't have been doing those moves and did them anyway. Personally I think this is one of my major issues with Billy Gunn and probably a lot of peoples too.
But people don't say "Man. Gunn sucked right after the injury", they say he sucks and is dangerous NOW.
Speaking of, How many Billy matches do you actually remember? Where's your Evidence that Keith is influencing these people? Me and Loosie have three specific examples of exactly why we don't like Billy Gunn that have nothing to do with Keith's ranting and I could bring up others like his KOTR match against X-pac(the crowd that slowly dies as the match progressed and the slow/sloppy top rope Famasser spot totally ruined that match.) and some of his more recent wrestling (Everything except his match against Tajiri and the one against Dreamer on Heat basically.)...you have none! Just some conjecture! Maybe most of these Internet wrestling fans have the same examples as I do or just haven't been impressed by his ring work. They may actually agree with Keith instead of being influenced by him! I know it's hard to believe, but I guess everyone can have one moment in the sun, can't they? And even if they were influenced by him, is it really that bad a thing? The more people we can educate to Billy's shortcomings, maybe the better. It could force him to be more entertaining (like he recently has been.) or to not take risks like he did with Benoit. I have rarely seen a tilt-a-whirl slam from Billy lately and if there is, it's usually very well done.
I guarantee you Austin, Benoit, Jericho, etc. have made plenty of noticeable mistakes (I can't really name any, mainly because I don't pay attention enough to this sort of thing). The difference is, for those guys it's a "mistake", while for Gunn it's a "shortcoming."
For many it is probably due to the "I want to be smart" stuff. But for me....it's not.
How convenient. What are the odds...someone not able to admit they were manipulated. I don't know about you personally, but when someone is manipulated like this, they aren't likely to just realize it and shout out "I AM INCAPABLE OF FORMING MY OWN OPINIONS!"
I wrote a Guest Column several months ago, around KOTR, trying to defend Gunn by making these same points, but due to my inability to focus on a topic for 5 minutes at a time, it wasn't as well thought-out as Papercuts' here. If I knew how to link on this board, I'd give you a link to the column in the Slash archives, but...what was I talking about again?
"A lot of guys on this team have a lot of bark, but no bite. Guys have to just shut up and play." -- WR Keyshawn Johnson, following the playoff loss to Philadelphia
Yeah, the singles push was very blah. But, other than my least favorite gimic ever, he wasn't THAT bad singles. In either case, the guy is a fantastic Tag wrestler, and can help a lot to get a team (like Billy & Chuck) over as heels. And I do think a lot of people swallow others opinions, probabaly because they don't want to look to "markish" and feel that they need to be a "smart." Hey, like what you like, don't feel compelled to like what someone else says. Btw, I never saw the move in question, but he didn't seriously injure anyone with it, right? Yet these same people that condemn him for that one fuck up jizz themselves over D'Lo, and he put a guy out. Nothing personal against D'Lo, by the way.
Eh, I was getting too carried away anyway. Sometimes I get this feeling I have to doubly protect my opinon when their shared by the "majority." Really a bad habbit.
I'll just line up with the sheep and watch my cred burn (if I even had any) Baaaaaah!
As for D'lo, alot of people liked D'lo because he was a larger guy who could do some decent flying moves. Also to me, he kind of filled a gab in wrestling styles on the roster at the time. Then the Radicals came in and with the after math of the Invasion, there really isn't that much of a gap anymore. I think people are more leniant on him because the botched move kind of happened out of the blue. To my knowledge D'lo had no injury that would have stopped him from doing the move and he had been doing the running powerbomb as one of his signature moves and had no real problem doing it. Like when Angle botched that moonsault and broke Bob Holly's arm. I don't think anyone really saw that coming.
When it came to Billy, it was more of a "I could see something bad might happen" situation. Atleast for me.
Nothing is better than X-pac! It's all in the inflection...
I have to take issue with the idea that people on the net are so easily swayed that we can't make our own opinion. Just a couple of random thoughts which hopefully will tie together: -In general the people who frequent sites like slash, smarks, torch, observer, dvdvr, etc. are to various degree more into workrate than they are into image. Some are more hardcore than others, like the DVDVR folks, but generally we all have issues with slow, unoriginal and/or sloppy wrestlers. Because of this, certain wrestlers who are not particularly adept in the ring will not have much of a following, like Gunn, Taker, etc. -We in the net herd tend to have longer and more comprehensive memories of things wrestling-related. Thus to most of us, it *would* be really amusing to hear the nWo say "mission accomplished" because we have a collective memory 5-6 years long at least. It's the same reason why we still joke about the DDP's benefactor or the WCW Hummer storylines, because we all remember them and they have a meaning to us. -We have more knowledge of backroom dealing than the average fan. I am sure we are not as smart about what goes on as we think we are, but I think there is some truth the idea that where there's smoke there's fire. When story after story comes out about HHH or the Undertaker using their position of respect in the WWF to hold people back, and then we see what at least *could* be perceived as evidence of such things happening on our tv screens, I don't believe it's unreasonable for us to come to a conclusion this could be likely without needing our hands held by the Keiths and Meltzers of the world. -We think about wrestling more than other people and more passionately than most people. When we don't like something that is going on, it really bothers us, because for many of us this is one of our primary interests. If it weren't we wouldn't be posting here, or taking time to read what some Canadian or Californian has to say about a wrestling program. Because of this, if for the above reasons someone decides they don't like UT, or they think they want more RVD on tv, they are going to have something to say about it and they're going to be quite vehement in this opinion. Because of this, I don't think it's fair to say we're being led by people. I think the problem is that in many ways we're a relatively like minded group of people to begin with. The Meltzers and Keiths and others of the world are pretty much just preaching to the choir when it comes to the net audience. If they do anything, I think it's that they rile people up about things they may already believe, which is why opinions they say may get more abundant after they say them. When someone with a lot of exposure says something, it causes debate. At that point a lot of people will tend to come out of the woodwork with their same opinions because the issue is now in play on the net. In the end I don't like Undertaker. Not because Keith or Meltzer tell me not to, but because he bores the piss out of me. I don't like Billy Gunn, he is not a very good wrestler and his character doesn't interest me. I love watching Chris Benoit. Not because I'm a net fan so I'm supposed to get hard watching him wrestle, but because his matches are almost always exciting and fun to watch. And that's how I would feel regardless of if I ever used the internet.
Hey, didn't really notice that EDIT bit before your post, IMO911, otherwise I'd have probably just let that go...
As for D'Lo Brown, I was never really a fan of his, and (although I'm not saying anyone here is doing this) I hate when people try to excuse D'Lo for paralyzing Droz by pointing to other injuries inflicted by other wrestlers. To justify Brown's mistake by saying Angle hurt Holly's arm, or Gunn did this or that, or RVD busted a guy open is like saying a murderer should get to walk away because some people get away with shoplifting.
That being said, if he is still being kept off WWF TV due to the Droz incident, I think he has done his time and been punished enough, so he chould get another chance.
"A lot of guys on this team have a lot of bark, but no bite. Guys have to just shut up and play." -- WR Keyshawn Johnson, following the playoff loss to Philadelphia
Personally, I have not had my opinion manipulated by these people who do columns. If you think i'm lying then fine, but when L-Mo told me about this thread he said something about Keith and I said "Keith who? I don't listen to Toby Keith, i'm more of a Tim McGraw fan." And he informed me that it was Scott Keith they were talking about. Truth is I don't know anything or even read the columns by Keith, or whoever, I don't even read CRZ's (sorry! don't hurt me! I love your message board though, please don't hurt me!). So these are my opinions and my opinions only.
When Billy was in the Smoking Gunns he was alright, I was a actually a fan of the Smoking Gunns. New Age Outlaws were good too. But then came the time when he got his singles push. At that point I think two things might have happened. First of all he could have gotten big headed about his singles push and started getting sloppy and lazy. Second of all he suddenly got huge, and at the same time his wrestling skills went down the crapper. Coincidence? Maybe, but could also be that he was more worried about his look than his wrestling. Now he did make some bad mistakes when he came back from injury and probaby was because of his injury. I really haven't noticed him nearly kill anyone lately but I still don't like him, because his matches aren't entertaining, not because he's sloppy or injures people.
But I don't think that people should be called sheep just because they agree with these column writers or whoever. Some people just agree on things. If everyone who agrees with someone makes them a sheep then I guess everyone on this thread is a sheep for agreeing with Papercuts.
"Yeah, the singles push was very blah. But, other than my least favorite gimic ever, he wasn't THAT bad singles. In either case, the guy is a fantastic Tag wrestler, and can help a lot to get a team (like Billy & Chuck) over as heels."
Exactly. While I don't like Billy Gunn at all, I DO like Chuck and Billy. I liked the New Age Outlaws. Hell, to a degree, I liked the Smokin Gunns. that's because in a tag team, Gunn's weaknesses are hidden. That's why RVD and the WWF are a perfect match - the WWF's match styles hide almost all of RVD's in-ring weaknesses.
Just so long as they don't try to push him down our throats as a singles wrestler, I'm happy.
And to those that think Billy really IS gay, I'll suggest that he really isn't interested in men by pointing out that he only ever wanted to be friends with Chyna. That alone should confirm his heterosexuality for any who doubted it.
No matter how bad things may get, just imagine what would happen if Vince Russo was booking again, and you will feel better.
Thread ahead: What would be you're biggest nWo markout Next thread: Is Jackie the WWF's first female referee? Previous thread: Bring Russo Back to the WWF!
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