I gotta hand it to my Chiefs, they sure are finding a way every week to *earn* that high draft pick! Beatdowns, giving up big leads, bad special teams, awful defense, they do it all, they find a way to lose when they could win! Ugh. Clark Hunt, PLEASE fire everybody. You have a GM who hasn't put together a team that has won a playoff game since the 93 season, and is widely hated by the fanbase. A coach who came in preaching defense and mocking the "circus act" offenses of the Vermeil era, whose defense after 3 years is the worst in the league. Player personnel people who can't scout and draft. Just clean house already.
That said, Tony G is still the best tight end in the game and anyone who says otherwise is dead wrong.
Wow, I guess Plax was sort of a big part of the Giants offense. I was really hoping the Giants would stick the fork in the Boys, but no such luck.
Can someone please tell Arizona that the season doesn't end once you win the division, there are still games left.
What the hell happened to Washington? They were once looking like a threat to losing to the Bengals.
Great hard hitting game between the Stillers and Ravens. That was not a TD though.
I think I'll adopt the Panthers as my teams to root for in the playoffs this year. Why? I've always like Delhomme and Steve Smith(who played a large role in winning me a fantasty football league in his first big year). And their colors.
I'm not touching next weeks Monday night game between the Packers and Bears with a ten foot pole. Just have the feeling Tony K will be in rare form with the Aaron Rodgers/Bret Favre thing.
I was listening to a KC sports talk radio show today which frequently has on CBS announcer Kevin Harlan. He told the a story about how the Raiders gave Jamarcus Russell a DVD which supposedly had film of their next opponent. When asked if he watched it he said he had, and that he had everything on the team figured out. The DVD was blank. Ladies and Gentlemen, your 2008 Oakland Raiders!
That said, Tony G is still the best tight end in the game and anyone who says otherwise is dead wrong.
- You can make a case for a handful of guys
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A PERSON TRY
Think about it this way: Tony G. plays two games each against San Diego, Denver and Oakland. I'm not sure where those overall defenses rank in the league, but I'd bet it would be near the bottom. He is also the primary receiver on his team, so the offense is more designed around him.
Now look at a guy like Jason Witten. He plays against defenses such as the Giants, Redskins and Eagles and competes for receptions with guys like T.O. Will he get fewer catches and TDs than Gonzalez? Sure, but put a guy like Witten in a situation that is more condusive to high offensive production and I'd bet he'd excel just the same. Despite the broken rib.
To a lesser extent: Gates, Cooley. Stats are important in this discussion, but so is the player's environment.
Dick Jauron should have been fired after the horrendous play calling that cost Buffalo the season. Run the ball when your quarterback sucks and you have the lead with 2 minutes to go. This looks like the Giants that played down the stretch in '06 and for most of the second half of '07. They could be playing their way to the #3 seed. Peterson has resigned from the Chiefs, so Herm should be following him out the door. Since I doubt the Saints will lose to the Lions this week: Have the Packers quit enough that they will lose at home to the Lions, who never win in Green Bay, to prevent 0-16?
No need for a new thread, so here are the playoff seedings after week 15:
Teams marked by +++ are eliminated from the playoffs
AFC 1. Tennessee (12-2) SOUTH CHAMPION, 1st round bye, will clinch home field advantage with a win over Pit 2. Pittsburgh (11-3) NORTH CHAMPION, 1st round bye
3. NY Jets (9-5) East leader, beat NE and Mia on head-to-head (2-1), split head-to-head with NE, beat NE on Div record (4-1) 4. Denver (8-6) West leader, will win the Div with a win or tie, OR a SD loss or tie 5. Indianapolis (10-4), will clinch a wildcard with a win OR many other things happening involving Bal, Mia, NYJ, & NE 6. Baltimore (9-5) Beat Mia
7. Miami (9-5) lost to NYJ and NE on head-to-head (1-2), split head-to-head & Div record with NE (3-2), beat NE on Conf record (6-4) 8. New England (9-5) lost to NYJ and Mia on head-to-head (2-2), split head-to-head & div record with Mia, lost to Mia on Conf record (6-5) 9. +++Houston (7-7) 10. +++Buffalo (6-8) Beat SD 11. San Diego (6-8) Lost to Buf
NFC 1. NY Giants (11-3) East CHAMPION, Beat Car on Conf record (8-2), will clinch home field advantage with win over Car, will clinch 1st round bye with Min loss 2. Carolina (11-3) South Leader, Lost to NYG on Conf record (7-3), will clinch home field advantage with win over NYG
3. Minnesota (9-5) North leader 4. Arizona (8-6) WEST CHAMPION 5. Dallas (9-5) Beat TB 6. Tampa Bay (9-5) Lost to Dal, split h-t-h & Div record (3-3) with Atl, beat Atl with conf record (8-4)
7. Atlanta (9-5) split h-t-h & Div record (3-3) with TB, lost to TB with conf record (6-4) 8. Philadelphia (8-5-1) 9. Chicago (8-6) 10. Washington (7-7) Beat NO 11. +++New Orleans (7-7) Lost to Was
12. +++Green Bay (5-9) Beat SF on Conf record (4-6) 13. +++San Francisco (5-9) Lost to GB on Conf record (3-7) 14. +++Seattle (3-11) 15. +++St. Louis (2-12) 16. +++Detroit (0-14)
1st round byes: #1 NY Giants (11-3), #2 Carolina (11-3) Wildcards: #6 Tampa Bay (9-5) @ #3 Minnesota (9-5) #5 Dallas (9-5) @ #4 Arizona (8-6)
The NFC is 28-29-1 (0.491) vs the AFC
Divisional Strength by out of division record: NFC South 25-9 (0.735) NFC East 25-10-1 (0.708) AFC South 24-12 (0.667) AFC East 23-13 (0.639)
AFC North 16-19-1 (0.458) NFC North 12-24 (0.333) AFC West 8-26 (0.235) NFC West 8-28 (0.222)
(edited by Zeruel on 16.12.08 0035)
-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --
"...Oh, the band is out on the field!! He's gonna go into the end zone! He's gone into the end zone!! -- Joe Starkey -- November 20, 1982 -- The Play --
Originally posted by redsoxnationSince I doubt the Saints will lose to the Lions this week: Have the Packers quit enough that they will lose at home to the Lions, who never win in Green Bay, to prevent 0-16?
Although this has been just about the most frustrating season ever to be a Packers fan, I've got to believe that my team wouldn't lay down against the shitty, shitty Lions. That would just be humiliating.
Of all the people Asante could've taken advice from on TD celebrations he had to choose DeSean. What's up with that?
Thankfully the Browns are so hideous at this point that the odd boneheaded play in an otherwise fine display didn't matter. Less boneheaded plays in future would still be nice though.
Originally posted by MUTigermaskCan someone please tell Arizona that the season doesn't end once you win the division, there are still games left.
You can tell them what you like, but it won't stop them being a deeply cruddy team, lucky enough to play in one of the top-to-bottom cruddiest divisions in recent memory.
Originally posted by djpThe Giants were still world beaters without Plax but without Jacobs they are merely human.
Still world beaters? The Philadelphia Eagles are out of this world!
Seriously, they're still a very good team minus Plax, but without him they're much more beatable. It would still take a good team playing well to do it, but they'll find it much tougher to run over teams without his deep threat.
Originally posted by djpThink about it this way: Tony G. plays two games each against San Diego, Denver and Oakland. I'm not sure where those overall defenses rank in the league, but I'd bet it would be near the bottom.
Oakland's pass defense is pretty solid, but overall, sure, the division's defenses stink. BUT if you look at the league's top pass defenses, the Chiefs have played against 4 of the 11 best units. Gonzalez has averaged 7 catches for 95 yards in those games. It's not like he's just padding stats against crappy teams.
Originally posted by djpHe is also the primary receiver on his team, so the offense is more designed around him.
You could just as easily spin that argument in Tony's favor. If the offense is designed around him, defenses know who they have to key on. It's not like he benefits because the defense is shifting their coverage towards someone else. When teams are planning their defensive coverage, they know they have to focus on stopping Gonzalez
When they played the Raiders a few weeks ago, Nnamdi Asomugha covered Tony. Champ Bailey has been on him before when they play Denver. That is the kind of attention he gets. And he still puts up the numbers he does.
Originally posted by djpNow look at a guy like Jason Witten.
Witten is a great player, no doubt about that. But is he the primary focus of defenses who play the Cowboys? I suspect he's not. So could case be made that he benefits from defenses focusing their attention more on others? I suspect it could. This is not a luxury Gonzalez has.
Originally posted by djp(Witten) competes for receptions with guys like T.O.
Tony competes for catches, too. Dwayne Bowe actually has 15 more receptions than T.O.
Originally posted by djpWill he get fewer catches and TDs than Gonzalez? Sure, but put a guy like Witten in a situation that is more condusive to high offensive production and I'd bet he'd excel just the same.
Witten has one of the league's best receivers on the outside to draw away defenders. Now he has Roy Williams, too. And at no point is Witten going to be the primary focus of a defense's efforts. Compared to Gonzalez, I would think Witten's situation is already more conducive to high production.
I think the choice is clear. And I won't even mention the difference in the quality of QBs that guys like Witten and Gates have, compared to the rogue's gallery of freaks and losers that Gonzalez catches passes from.
Originally posted by redsoxnationSince I doubt the Saints will lose to the Lions this week: Have the Packers quit enough that they will lose at home to the Lions, who never win in Green Bay, to prevent 0-16?
Although this has been just about the most frustrating season ever to be a Packers fan, I've got to believe that my team wouldn't lay down against the shitty, shitty Lions. That would just be humiliating.
I absolutely believe we would. It's been that kind of season, and that kind of November/December.
It is the policy of the documentary crew to remain true observers and not interfere with its subjects.
If you wanna reach the Co-op, boy, you gotta get by me.
Originally posted by djpThink about it this way: Tony G. plays two games each against San Diego, Denver and Oakland. I'm not sure where those overall defenses rank in the league, but I'd bet it would be near the bottom.
Oakland's pass defense is pretty solid, but overall, sure, the division's defenses stink. BUT if you look at the league's top pass defenses, the Chiefs have played against 4 of the 11 best units. Gonzalez has averaged 7 catches for 95 yards in those games. It's not like he's just padding stats against crappy teams.
Originally posted by djpHe is also the primary receiver on his team, so the offense is more designed around him.
You could just as easily spin that argument in Tony's favor. If the offense is designed around him, defenses know who they have to key on. It's not like he benefits because the defense is shifting their coverage towards someone else. When teams are planning their defensive coverage, they know they have to focus on stopping Gonzalez
When they played the Raiders a few weeks ago, Nnamdi Asomugha covered Tony. Champ Bailey has been on him before when they play Denver. That is the kind of attention he gets. And he still puts up the numbers he does.
Originally posted by djpNow look at a guy like Jason Witten.
Witten is a great player, no doubt about that. But is he the primary focus of defenses who play the Cowboys? I suspect he's not. So could case be made that he benefits from defenses focusing their attention more on others? I suspect it could. This is not a luxury Gonzalez has.
Originally posted by djp(Witten) competes for receptions with guys like T.O.
Tony competes for catches, too. Dwayne Bowe actually has 15 more receptions than T.O.
Originally posted by djpWill he get fewer catches and TDs than Gonzalez? Sure, but put a guy like Witten in a situation that is more condusive to high offensive production and I'd bet he'd excel just the same.
Witten has one of the league's best receivers on the outside to draw away defenders. Now he has Roy Williams, too. And at no point is Witten going to be the primary focus of a defense's efforts. Compared to Gonzalez, I would think Witten's situation is already more conducive to high production.
I think the choice is clear. And I won't even mention the difference in the quality of QBs that guys like Witten and Gates have, compared to the rogue's gallery of freaks and losers that Gonzalez catches passes from.
AND...Has Jason Witten ever saved a man's life? Didn't think so. Tony Gonzalez is a super-hero.
Well, I guess this is my (and all Chiefs fans) early Christmas present from Clark Hunt. Lets just hope they get the right guy to take over. Herm being gone isn't a done deal yet, but I'd put his chances of returning as very low.
Thanks SEADAWG for pretty much making every argument I'd have come up with for me. And I never said that he was FAR AND AWAY the best, as there are guys like Witten, Gates who are very good. He is still better than those guys. He's 32 and still having the best season of any tight end, and this is with a still weak O-line, not much of a run game, and Brodie Croyle, Damon Huard, and Tyler Thigpen(who has shown some ability) as his QBs. Defenses also have been putting good coverage guys on him, as well as frequently bracketed by multiple defenders, yet he still makes great catches in traffic.
And also, he's not CONSPIRING with the QB to get the ball like Witten! :)
Well, I guess this is my (and all Chiefs fans) early Christmas present from Clark Hunt. Lets just hope they get the right guy to take over. Herm being gone isn't a done deal yet, but I'd put his chances of returning as very low.
Thanks SEADAWG for pretty much making every argument I'd have come up with for me. And I never said that he was FAR AND AWAY the best, as there are guys like Witten, Gates who are very good. He is still better than those guys. He's 32 and still having the best season of any tight end, and this is with a still weak O-line, not much of a run game, and Brodie Croyle, Damon Huard, and Tyler Thigpen(who has shown some ability) as his QBs. Defenses also have been putting good coverage guys on him, as well as frequently bracketed by multiple defenders, yet he still makes great catches in traffic.
And also, he's not CONSPIRING with the QB to get the ball like Witten! :)
While we're on the subject of the Chiefs, what's up with Glen Dorsey? What do the local talking heads say about how's been a zero factor this season?
It really speaks to the (lack of) quality in the NFC West that the Chargers are still alive at 6-8. I do hope that it comes down to the final game (Chargers vs. Broncos), winner take all, just so there is some drama in the final week.
Originally posted by redsoxnationSince I doubt the Saints will lose to the Lions this week: Have the Packers quit enough that they will lose at home to the Lions, who never win in Green Bay, to prevent 0-16?
Although this has been just about the most frustrating season ever to be a Packers fan, I've got to believe that my team wouldn't lay down against the shitty, shitty Lions. That would just be humiliating.
I absolutely believe we would. It's been that kind of season, and that kind of November/December.
If you're in the neighborhood of Lambeau Field on 12/28, I'm sure you'll be able to find tickets for under $20.
It's not that we'll lay down for them, but we're not playing good football right now. We're definitely in danger of losing to the Lions. Ugh.
Originally posted by The GoonIt really speaks to the (lack of) quality in the NFC West that the Chargers are still alive at 6-8. I do hope that it comes down to the final game (Chargers vs. Broncos), winner take all, just so there is some drama in the final week.
To get that game, you would need the Bills to go to Denver and win. After the way they lost the Jet game, it's more likely to be 42-3 Denver than a Bills victory.
Originally posted by SEADAWG I think the choice is clear. And I won't even mention the difference in the quality of QBs that guys like Witten and Gates have, compared to the rogue's gallery of freaks and losers that Gonzalez catches passes from.
Now, now - I picked up Thiggy in FFL when Romo went down with a bwoken wittle fingy and he's almost single-handedly kept me in the hunt.
You make very valid points, and Gonzalez may very well be the best, but you can't say a case can't be made for Witten.
But enough about tight ends; who is the best line judge in the NFL? For my money, it's Byron Boston. That guy is ALL OVER illegal substitutions.
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