It's a real shame his body hasn't allowed him to showcase himself year in and year out - because if he'd played full seasons his whole career I have no doubt he'd have set the standard for career goals, assists, points, and points in a season.
I believe the year he racked up 199 points he missed something like 18 games.
He's simply a thrill to watch on the ice. And the plus he has over Gretzky (who I do not wish to demean - he's a class act and a legend) is that he is capable of taking care of himself on the ice.
It's a real shame his body hasn't allowed him to showcase himself year in and year out - because if he'd played full seasons his whole career I have no doubt he'd have set the standard for career goals, assists, points, and points in a season.
I believe the year he racked up 199 points he missed something like 18 games.
He's simply a thrill to watch on the ice. And the plus he has over Gretzky (who I do not wish to demean - he's a class act and a legend) is that he is capable of taking care of himself on the ice
Oh, PLEASE, Mario is NOT the greatest. Great? Yes. Not THE Greatest. If you're going to talk about a big-time scorer who can take care of himself on the ice, then I don't see how you could place Mario ahead of Gordie Howe (the man even came out of retirement to play on the same team WITH HIS SONS in New England!). It doesn't matter whether or not the player can take care of themselves on the ice, it doesn't make them any greater if they could or if they have their teammates be the enforcer. (By the by, didn't Mario complain about constant clutching and grabbing in the NHL when he left?)
I'll get to Gretzky in a moment, but first, how could you place Mario ahead of Bobby Orr (greatest offensive D-man ever, one of the great leaders in hockey, changed the game for a lot of D-men), Terry Sawchuk backstopped Detroit and helped them heavily to many Stanley Cups while simply stoning the other NHL squads. Granted, these aren't forwards so the comparison may not be fair, but it is important to note.
Now, how can you diss Gretzky? Did Mario ever expand the scope of the game? No. Did Mario ever influence the play of centers and wingers today (Gretzky's move was skating with the puck behind the net and then pass it out in front for the goal)? No. Did Mario make hockey a big-time sport in places where hockey was seemingly out of place (California, which now has THREE NHL teams)? No. Did Mario even break 200 pts. in a season? No, he came close with 199, but Wayne did it multiple times. Did Mario ever lead a goodwill team to play in other countries during the 94-95 NHL lockout? No, that was Wayne, again. It is a shame that Mario didn't play many full seasons, but you just can't say "what if" to something you don't know will happen. In that year when Mario got 199 pts., it was feasible that if he played more games, he still would have had 199 pts.
I'm not saying Mario isn't great. But he's not the greatest.
...Some fear the Pink... ...But many fear....THE MOUNTIE! (He's handsome, he's brave, and he's strong, you know)
I don't remember dissing Gretzky at all. I do remember praising him as a class act and legend however.
I'm NOT judging Mario on What If. I'm judging him on what he has done. It's one thing to take a guy who scores a hat trick on opening day, gets injured, and say "wow, if he'd been healthy he'd have scored over 250 goals!" I think it's quite another to take a guy who's collected more than 650 goals in some 800 odd games, which when averaged out is LESS than 10 full seasons!
He AVERAGES 2 points a game - and this is a man who's played on some REALLY shitty clubs. He rebuilt a team that was as good as dead and turned them into two time Stanley Cup Champions.
Gordie Howe came out of retirement to play with his sons? Why, he MUST be better than Mario for that alone. That's the only argument you've presented me for Howe, though I am fully aware of his dozens of other accolades. (He's another man who I am quite fond of, and he was good friends with my Grandfather whom he caught up with at the presentation of the Emery Edge award several times over the years prior to his death and the award's death.) Gordie was a legitimate tough man who could score LOTS of goals. He also played in a very different era.
Lemieux scored 161 points one year after retiring in 1995-96 when NO ONE in the league was scoring anything NEAR that!
Lemieux has played with awesome players (Francis, Jagr), and he's played with cruddy ones. He's still remained consistent.
Gretzky was wicked in Edmonton - but I'll maintain that after leaving a franchise where about 4 or 5 guys are headed to the hall he wasn't quite the same.
I'm not going with "what if" here... I'm simply going with the thunderous impact he leaves every single time he steps on the ice.
Most points per game ever? Not really all that much if you play a little more than 800 games, in comparison to Gretzky's career. Please, name me how many players had gotten over 2,000 pts. in their career in the NHL. Exactly. Only Wayne Gretzky accomplished that goal with 2,857 pts. in 1,487. In fact, Wayne Gretzky has more assists (1,963) than everyone else has in points (Mario now only has 1,594 pts. Could he pull within a thousand? Simply, no.). And Gretzky's main job was helping his wingers score, which is why he has that many assists. In addition, has anyone else scored more than 90 goals in a season? Only Wayne had done it in 1981-82. Mario may have saved the Pens twice, but do you really think there would be teams in San Jose and Anaheim if Wayne's awesome skills didn't put so many asses in seats in LA? I think not.
And what about the playoffs? 382 pts. (122 G, 260A 1.837 pts./game) in 208 playoff games is pretty damn good. Much better than Mario's 172 pts. (76 G, 96 A. 1.607 pts./game) in 107 playoff games, in my opinion.
Simply put, Wayne > Mario.
...Some fear the Pink... ...But many fear....THE MOUNTIE! (He's handsome, he's brave, and he's strong, you know)
There is a reason why Mario doesn't have as many assists as Wayne....LOOK AT HIS TEAMMATES!!!!!
Gretzky:
Messier Kurri Robitaille Glenn Anderson Esa Tikkanen
There are more but this is off the top of my head.
Lemieux:
Jagr Francis Nedved Kovalev Mullen
Switch the lists and Mario has a LOT more points.
Hmm. Let's look at the stats of all of these wingers who supposedly made it easy for Gretzky to be the only player to shatter the 2,000 pt. mark and get all of those assists and goals.
Esa Tikkanen's best offensive year (67 GP, 31 G, 47 A, 78 P) was in 1988-89 with the Oilers (OK, he has comparable stats to his 86-87 season, but his 88-89 season had him with more points per game), while Gretzky was already traded to the LA Kings. Glenn Anderson did have his best offensive numbers while he was the Oilers with Gretzky, but Gretzky's numbers blow everyone else on that team (and pretty much the whole NHL, 4 200+ pt. seasons!) away. Mark Messier's best offensive totals (79 GP, 45 G, 84 A, 129 P) came in 1989-90 with the Oilers-Gretzky was in LA then. Robitalle's best season was in 92-93 with Gretzky (84 GP, 63 G, 62 A, 125 P), but Gretzky was injured for most of that season (only 45 GP for the great one) Jari Kurri's best offensive totals were when he was with Oilers from 1980-81 to 1989-90, BUT he was traded to LA for the 91-92 season where Gretzky was playing at the time and played there with Gretzky until Gretzky was traded to the Blues; Kurri's point totals from 91-92 onward were 60, 87, 77, 29 (lockout year), and 40 with the Kings before being traded to the Rangers in 95-96. Nowhere NEAR his 100+ pt. seasons he had with the Oilers, so Gretzky didn't always have Kurri to supposedly look good. Yes, Gretzky got a lot of assists from setting up these guys (and many more, how come you didn't mention Paul Coffey?)
And I think Gretzky would have done FINE with Mario's wingers. First off, you should be kicking yourself for noting Petr Nedved instead of Kevin Stevens (and Nedved got 99 pts. playing with Mario in 95-96, but whatever). Anyways, Francis' best years were with playing with Mario (119 pts. in 95-96), Jagr's best years were with Mario (149 pts. in 95-96), Mullen's best year was in CALGARY (110 pts. in 88-89) not Pittsburgh (still, his 87 pt. 91-92 season was pretty good), and Kovalev's best year was last season BUT it was because of playing with Robert Lang and Martin Straka (he didn't play with Mario, he was on the KLS line). So, I question you, would Mario have gotten his 1,500 pts. without HIS wingers?
In either case, if you think Mario is that much better than Gretzky, why in the world are you saying that Gretzky only got his records due to his wingers? Gretzky had great wingers, so did Mario; but Gretzky took it to that next level and used his great playmaking ability to not only step up his game, but his TEAM's game.
So, Wayne is still better than Mario in my opinion.
...Some fear the Pink... ...But many fear....THE MOUNTIE! (He's handsome, he's brave, and he's strong, you know)
Here's the best way I can put it: Gretzky is better than Mario overally. Has Mario been better when he played? Probably. But the simple fact is Gretzky's career has to be looked at as better. He stayed healthy, for the most part. Mario didn't. You can rip that all you want, but you can't be great when you aren't on the ice. Also, and maybe I didn't read close enough, but it seems that all the pro-Mario guys want to forget the fact that Gretzky didn't play his whole career within that Edmonton dynasty. He was on some bad LA King hockey teams that he made good on his own, just like Mario in Pittsburgh. I guess my argument would be Gretzky was better because he was more durable. I consider them to be about equal in terms of talent, but Mario has had too many health problems and being durable is part of being the "greatest"
Granted if I were picking the "greatest" I would pick Patrick Roy, but that's just me.
And I think you're fat. So how do you like me now?
Are you guys SERIOUSLY saying that Lemieux would have more points if JARI KURRI was on his wing instead of JAROMIR JAGR?? COME ON!!!
Lemieux saved the franchise, yes. Gretzky saved the WHOLE DAMN LEAGUE when he went to L.A. Not to mention he's the best ambassador for hockey you'll EVER see in your lifetime.
But, none of that has anything to do with hockey ability. Gretzky is the best player ever. Period. I happen to think Lemieux is the best pure goal-scorer ever. But as a player, nobody - NOBODY - touches Gretz. Don't make me get into the whole "more assists than anybody else has points" thing again.
As is usually the case, Brew is correct. Woooooo!!
Wayne Gretzky is the best hockey player to ever play the game. In fact, Gretzky is probably the best player ever in any sport! He so dominated the league, it is not even close. Don't say Michael Jordan either.
He's Rolie Polie Olie - and in his world of curves and curls, he's the swellest kid around.
You can also say that Gretzky could have easily played another couple of seasons instead of retiring in '99 (eventhough that WAS his number).
After he went to NYR, he could have also had a lot more points added to his totals if he only had someone who could put the puck in the net. Which makes things even more amazing when you consider that Gretzky was an assist machine in his later years, realizing that it was time to let others shine and giving them the chance to score.
BobHollySTILLrules is right....Gretzky was on some horrible Kings teams. And the 1993 Los Angeles Kings, who went to the Stanley Cup Finals, are the perfect example of a bunch of journeymen (Pat Conachar, Tomas Sandstrom, Tony Granato) hockey players being led by the greatest.
Statistics mean shit. It's that simple. Numbers can be twisted, turned, manipulated, lit with a blowtorch, hammered into a hole in the ground, beat with the end of a phillipshead screwdriver, burned by boiling hot lava and thrown into Lake Okachobee with a weight attached until they present the argument you want. Numbers can tell both sides of any argument.
Basically what this thread boils down to is this: If you think Mario would have gone on to have a better career than Gretzky were it not for his health, as I do, than you think he's the greater of the two.
However, I do think Gretzky is by far the most influencial player the game has seen, both in terms of changing the game and providing a figurehead for the league that mainstream media can associate with the NHL, much like they do Michael Jordan in the NBA.
Well, of COURSE you're (I mean Bucs and Xavier) going to tell me statistics lie and whatnot. They clearly show that Gretzky's that much of a better player than Lemieux Since stats are one of the few clear-cut ways to measure ability (since ability usually yields results), you can't honestly sit here and tell me they're meaningless.
And if you're not going to use stats and assume that Mario being healthy would have increased his stats (An Aside: you see, I don't like playing what if because you could say that about almost ANY player.), how in the world can you say Mario has the best pure hockey talent ever? Have you seen every player to have played the game? How do you measure that?
...Some fear the Pink... ...But many fear....THE MOUNTIE! (He's handsome, he's brave, and he's strong, you know)
Well, of COURSE you're (I mean Bucs and Xavier) going to tell me statistics lie and whatnot. They clearly show that Gretzky's that much of a better player than Lemieux Since stats are one of the few clear-cut ways to measure ability (since ability usually yields results), you can't honestly sit here and tell me they're meaningless.
But...they don't. Did you read my whole post? I clearly said the stats could support either side of the argument, not just Gretzky and not just Lemieux.
I always love the Wayne vs. Mario debate because it let's me throw in this tidbit...
Remember Gordie Howe? For the vast majority of his career he played in a six-team league, meaning, on any given night, he was facing one of the best five goalies in the world, facing four of the best twenty-four defensemen in the world, facing one of the six best TEAMS in the world.
For a point in the '50s, every goalie Howe scored against ended up in the Hall of Fame.
When Wayne and Mario played, they may have been facing one of the top sixty or seventy goalies in the world.
Having said that, I'm still a huge Mario fan, but it doesn't cloud my judgement.
Q: If you could have interviewed Marvin Gaye, where would you have proposed to meet and what would you have asked him?
A: I would have met anywhere as long as it was before his father shot him. I would have asked him, "Hey, don't you think there's some chance that your father might shoot you? To death, I mean?"
Mats Sundin signs with Vancouver, ending the drama as to where he's gonna end up. (sports.yahoo.com) As a diehard Toronto fan, I can say good riddance to a bad, egotistic ass.
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