I love that Griffey got the honors, because a lot of people had him completely written off. Here's hoping HE breaks Hank Aaron's record, although he'd have to avoid the injury bug for the next 10-odd years, which is pretty doubtful.
On the other end of the spectrum, fuck Jason Giambi! For as many players that get scrutiny over having taken steroids, Giambi gets an AWARD for making a comeback while likely still juiced? Bob Wickman and Richie Sexson deserved this award a lot more than Giambi did, but I guess that's what happens when you put this in the hands of the fans.
And you thought selling Amway was his career lowlight?
He came back from a serious illness. AND he played better this season than he had the previous two while "on the juice". If you think he isnt being tested regularly, you are on crack.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeHe came back from a serious illness. AND he played better this season than he had the previous two while "on the juice". If you think he isnt being tested regularly, you are on crack.
Okay so he was dumb to take the stuff to begin with then.
So they gave to the award to an idiot and a cheater. Much better. I'm not saying he's still using, I'm saying it doesn't matter to me. I still wouldn't give him that award. And if you think because he's being tested means he definatly isn't taking anything, then you haven't been paying attention (Human Growth Hormone ring any bells?).
Originally posted by StaggerLeeHe came back from a serious illness. AND he played better this season than he had the previous two while "on the juice". If you think he isnt being tested regularly, you are on crack.
Okay so he was dumb to take the stuff to begin with then.
So they gave to the award to an idiot and a cheater. Much better. I'm not saying he's still using, I'm saying it doesn't matter to me. I still wouldn't give him that award. And if you think because he's being tested means he definatly isn't taking anything, then you haven't been paying attention (Human Growth Hormone ring any bells?).
It's amazing that I still see people pretending that Jason Giambi, Barry Bonds, and a handful of others are the only professional athletes on the entire planet that use steroids. I guarantee you that a very good number were on steroids that you don't even know about (most likely guys you have respect for), and a lot probably still are since the current tests they use don't detect more recent anabolics developed. As far as the NFL goes, don't even get me started.
I hate to break the news, but guys that use steroids aren't diabolical villains who are just out to shatter records and destroy the memories of your youth. They're normal people who were/are placed in a highly competitive environment where in many cases juicing was not only allowed, but encouraged. I hate to use the "don't hate the player, hate the game" cliche, but it's still appropriate.
My point is, cut Jason Giambi some slack. As much as everyone wants to scream about him being a cheater and a liar, he was the only - ONLY - guy to come out and be a man about it. He went in front of everyone, admitted he did it, admitted that he had cheated and did so with a tremendous amount of shame and humility. He sincerely apologized and didn't expect admiration, or a pat on the back, for his apology (unlike most other "apologies" you see in sports).
Everyone needs to give Giambi a break and get off their soapbox. Of the "cheaters" mentioned, he's the only one who was a stand-up guy about it. If you can't respect that, then I don't know what to tell you.
Originally posted by Deputy Marshall It's amazing that I still see people pretending that Jason Giambi, Barry Bonds, and a handful of others are the only professional athletes on the entire planet that use steroids. I guarantee you that a very good number were on steroids that you don't even know about (most likely guys you have respect for), and a lot probably still are since the current tests they use don't detect more recent anabolics developed.
I have doubt that you're right (see: Palmeiro, Rafael), but the fact is that Jason Giambi was proven to be a user while other higher profile players have not been caught. It's fair to criticize any player that gets caught using banned substances, especially a superstar of Giambi's caliber. The fact that other players do the same thing doesn't absolve Giambi of being a cheater nor does it mean that we should paint all players with same broad brush because of unproven suspicions (and again, I fully agree that many, many other players are still using PED).
I hate to break the news, but guys that use steroids aren't diabolical villains who are just out to shatter records and destroy the memories of your youth. They're normal people who were/are placed in a highly competitive environment where in many cases juicing was not only allowed, but encouraged. I hate to use the "don't hate the player, hate the game" cliche, but it's still appropriate.
But steroid use was not allowed even if it may have been tacitly encouraged by Selig, MLB, and the organizations. I understand that there is a certain culture around baseball where there is pressure to get a leg up any way you can, but that doesn't mean that using steroids is OK or that it was any less of a personal choice made on the part of Giambi and other cheaters.
My point is, cut Jason Giambi some slack. As much as everyone wants to scream about him being a cheater and a liar, he was the only - ONLY - guy to come out and be a man about it. He went in front of everyone, admitted he did it, admitted that he had cheated and did so with a tremendous amount of shame and humility. He sincerely apologized and didn't expect admiration, or a pat on the back, for his apology (unlike most other "apologies" you see in sports).
Everyone needs to give Giambi a break and get off their soapbox. Of the "cheaters" mentioned, he's the only one who was a stand-up guy about it. If you can't respect that, then I don't know what to tell you.
Giambi absolutely did not stand up and take responsibility about anything. Giambi continually denied any accusations of steroid use for years. Remember when he showed up to Spring Training significantly lighter than he had been the year before and claimed that he had only lost "four pounds"? Is that what you consider honesty?
The fact is that Giambi only admitted steroid use when he was forced to under oath in a courtroom under an agreement for immunity and with the expectation that his grand jury testimony would be kept confidential. It isn't like he had much of a choice about telling the truth.
And you thought his apology was appropriate? Are we talking about the one where he never actually mentioned steroids and just kept apologizing for something which he never named? That's being a man - not even having the guts to say what you are talking about? When was he ever forthright about what happened?
Giambi is a cheater, and he always will be, at least as far as I am concerned. It's a travesty that he got the comeback player of the year award, and it's a shame that people defend him.
You said that it's fair to criticize players who used substances, and I would agree. However, what isn't fair is to assume that Giambi is still on roids, which in my opinion isn't the case but then again it's just that - my opinion. To come back from such controversy (and a pretty bad illness last season) to have the season he's had is tremendous. So no, Giambi doesn't get a pass on past use, but there's got to be a point where you allow a man to move on from previous indiscretions. Hell, if you yourself had made a colossal mistake in your life, I would hope that others wouldn't feel consistently compelled to break down any further accomplishments you had made just because of your past.
Major League Baseball never came out and said "use steroids," but they must have been fully aware of the situation and didn't address it. Hell, when I saw how big Bonds got over a few seasons years and years ago, the word "steroid" was the first one that popped into my mind. I think you'd agree that it'd be ridiculous to say that owners, managers, and the front office of Major League Baseball wasn't aware that steroid abuse was occurring. Tacid encouragement is still encouragement. Nobody held a gun to the head of Jason Giambi or any other player who used steroids, but there was also no threat of retribution for those that WERE using it, even if there was a very weak and un-enforced policy present.
That being said, you're right in saying that it was a personal choice. Giambi was still in the wrong, even if there were other elements surrounding him that may have contributed to that decision being made. I have to put emphasis on the fact that I wrote he was in the wrong.
The fact that the word "steroids" wasn't mentioned in his apology doesn't matter, in my opinion. I knew what he was addressing, and every single person who heard that apology knew what he was addressing. You'd have to be pretty daft to not realize what he was talking about.
There's two other words that count more than "steroids," and that's "I'm sorry." It came from a man who was completely broken down; a man whose legacy has been and will forever be tarnished by this controversy. Is it his own fault? While there are other factors, he was compliant in his use and it shouldn't be excused. However, like I said, a man should be given a chance to start anew and when he makes those steps it's more than appropriate to recognize it.
Your approach to this is akin to saying that a convict will always be a convict, no matter how much he does to turn his life around after being released from prison, or how much remorse he has felt for his crimes, or how pious he may become. Another example would be to constantly remind people that an alcoholic, while he's fighting to stay sober and turn his life around, was once a drunk and therefore doesn't deserve anything else that his accomplishments may warrant. I'm not equating steroid use to personal addictions, but what I am equating it to is giving a man his due and a second chance. There are also certain crimes that a man can commit that are unforgivable. I just don't see using a drug that many other players were using as one of them, even if it was wrong.
I would like to think that in your personal life you wouldn't be so steadfastly judgmental of people's past actions, and if you are, than I would really have to pity you. That's not a personal shot, I'm just putting it in perspective. Despite what you may think of his status as an athlete on a world stage, Jason Giambi is still human. We as sports fans all too often forget that, simply because we will always feel that something more is owed to us.
So consider the situation as if he wasn't a player in Major League Baseball. We shouldn't forget, because there are very important lessons to be learned from this entire situation. At the same time, however, there is a time to forgive not just so that we can move on with our lives as sports fans, but more importantly so that a person whose only crime was cheating at a game can be allowed to move on with his.
Look, here's where your point is failing Deputy. If he had come forward on his own because he wanted to correct the bad he had done then ok, I can respect that at least a bit.
But he didn't. He got caught. Of course he was sorry. That he got caught. He wasn't willing to come forward on his own or even stop use until he was backed into a corner and forced to do so. That's not to say he can't be a respectable person in the future, but it certainly means we have a right to take his confession with a large grain of salt.
Had he not been forced into this point, there's about a 99.9% chance he'd still be using. Why can I say that? Cause he had been using for a long time already and would have had zero reason to stop.
Lastly, yes I can forgive him for having used steroids. He may be a very nice man. But being forced to stop using them and then having a good season after that in no way should make people give him EXTRA credit for said season. He should not have won this award because what he "came back" from is bullshit.
Wmatistic, do you think that losing a season, and being diagnosed with a pituitary tumor MIGHT have given him cause to stop using? Or is it ONLY because his testimony (that is supposed to remain confidential) was leaked to the press?
Either way, he said he was sorry. Did he say "FOR USING STEROIDS?" No, but I am sure if OJ had a press conference and said "Hey, I am sorry for any harm I brought to anybody, I was wrong" most people would KNOW what he was talking about without him having to say it.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeWmatistic, do you think that losing a season, and being diagnosed with a pituitary tumor MIGHT have given him cause to stop using? Or is it ONLY because his testimony (that is supposed to remain confidential) was leaked to the press?
Either way, he said he was sorry. Did he say "FOR USING STEROIDS?" No, but I am sure if OJ had a press conference and said "Hey, I am sorry for any harm I brought to anybody, I was wrong" most people would KNOW what he was talking about without him having to say it.
(edited by StaggerLee on 10.10.05 0812)
Quite honestly I don't believe for a second it was any reason other than the testimony forcing it out in the open. If he had been doing it for a while before that, what other reason would he have it to stop? Think about the mindset of someone using. They think they have to use it to stay competitive. That's why they started in the first place. If they have a bad year, the last thing they will think is "hey I should stop." No, they're much more likely to think stopping would put them out of the sport altogether. He was relying on it. He quit because he was forced to.
I'm not the one who complained about him not saying the specific thing, although yes that was pathetic anyway. My point was that he was more sorry he was caught and had to admit it to the world than he was for actually using steroids. At least that's how I saw it. None of us can know for sure, but the circumstances before and after lean me to my conclusions.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeWmatistic, do you think that losing a season, and being diagnosed with a pituitary tumor MIGHT have given him cause to stop using? Or is it ONLY because his testimony (that is supposed to remain confidential) was leaked to the press?
Either way, he said he was sorry. Did he say "FOR USING STEROIDS?" No, but I am sure if OJ had a press conference and said "Hey, I am sorry for any harm I brought to anybody, I was wrong" most people would KNOW what he was talking about without him having to say it.
(edited by StaggerLee on 10.10.05 0812)
Quite honestly I don't believe for a second it was any reason other than the testimony forcing it out in the open. If he had been doing it for a while before that, what other reason would he have it to stop? Think about the mindset of someone using. They think they have to use it to stay competitive. That's why they started in the first place. If they have a bad year, the last thing they will think is "hey I should stop." No, they're much more likely to think stopping would put them out of the sport altogether. He was relying on it. He quit because he was forced to.
I'm not the one who complained about him not saying the specific thing, although yes that was pathetic anyway. My point was that he was more sorry he was caught and had to admit it to the world than he was for actually using steroids. At least that's how I saw it. None of us can know for sure, but the circumstances before and after lean me to my conclusions.
Perhaps by glorifying a very good season by the major league player I'd say is one of the least likely to be on the juice at this point, MLB is sending the message to kids and fans that Giambi's previous mindset (that he had to use steroids to remain competitive) was a foolish one.
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