Originally posted by StaggerLeeBut, other than Paul Heyman, I wouldn't have anybody else running a company for me if I owned one.
Preach it brother! When he was in charge, OVW (Ohio Valley Wrestling) was AWESOME!!!
"You are going to get a certain amount of snarkiness on the Internet no matter what, and my rule is that you don't post anything that you wouldn't say to someone's face." Marc Andreyko (Writer of DC Comic's "Manhunter")
Originally posted by StaggerLeeBut, other than Paul Heyman, I wouldn't have anybody else running a company for me if I owned one.
Yeah, I am a big fan of misanthropic people holding important positions in multimillion dollar international businesses, too.
In all honesty and due respect, Cornette, like a large majority of these old timers circling the drain of the indies, is a shill for whomever is signing his latest check. If it wasn't the NWA, it was the WWF...then OVW, TNA and now ROH. But I suppose that's just a part of working promotions, especially in the 'rasslin' business.
Originally posted by Jim CornetteUgh! It’s wrestling! And here’s the most likable, talented, young guy, and a darling of all the real diehard wrestling fans...
I guess I'm not a die-hard wrestling fan because I'm not in the streets protesting in anguish and screaming, "It's still real to me dammit!" (Speaking of which, I wonder how long it will take the "darling the wrestling"--and maybe some of those die-hard fans--to realize that wrestling is a work. And that wrestling a 75-minute match full of chops, flips, highspots and finishing moves-for-finishing moves doesn't make you a great wrestler or the "best in the world," it makes you a mark for yourself. Especially when guys like Hulk Hogan and John Cena made and will make 100 times the money for doing 100 times less in just 10 minutes. Terry Funk and Bobby Heenan's words, not mine.)
Some of what Cornette says is certainly true, but there are some holes in the logic of his arguments. He can bury Vince McMahon all he wants and say Dana White is beating him at his own game, but what does it matter? Vince is the one who invented the game, its rules and designed the playing board. Certainly, if Dana White, ROH or any other fighting/wrestling organization can find success by poaching aspects of what made wrestling hot in the '80s and late '90s, you better believe it can be stolen back by Vince McMahon and presented in a much prettier production package just like he did before; that's the benefit of being an icon of pop culture.
Despite popular belief (in the IWC), Vince McMahon is not as insulated or unaware of what goes on in his industry as some would like to assume. He may be stubborn, but he's not oblivious of every trick, talent and trend of the moment. It is his industry, no matter if he's overtaken in the future, and Cornette knows and hates that fact.
And that wrestling a 75-minute match full of chops, flips, highspots and finishing moves-for-finishing moves doesn't make you a great wrestler or the "best in the world," it makes you a mark for yourself.
I agree that Cornette is a bitter loon whose hating things and swearing has totally worn out its welcome. And I agree with the above poke at acclaimed indy wrestling in general. But it's unfair and inaccurate when it comes to Danielson.
Originally posted by JustinShapiroI agree that Cornette is a bitter loon whose hating things and swearing has totally worn out its welcome. And I agree with the above poke at acclaimed indy wrestling in general. But it's unfair and inaccurate when it comes to Danielson.
Two out of three ain't bad.
Re: Danielson--Well, agree to disagree. I am certainly open to a convincing argument, however.
I think the charges levied -- 75-minute match full of chops, flips, highspots and finishing moves-for-finishing moves -- are more applicable to someone like AJ Styles than Danielson. Danielson doesn't really do a lot of highspots or acrobatics, just that one springboard dive into the crowd he does in every match. And his finishes are a submission, a small package, and elbows to the face, so he can't really contribute to a finisher-fest. Match length is kind of self-indulgent but I think that just goes with the ROH territory. Shawn Michaels and Regal and Jericho really like him and I think they'd be among the first to knock internet-rep indy wrestlers for not doing things the right way and whatnot.
Making fun of the rest of ROH and its fans, though, I am right there with you. Fuck's sake, powerbombs on the floor in the opening 20 minute match and such.
Originally posted by JustinShapiroI think the charges levied -- 75-minute match full of chops, flips, highspots and finishing moves-for-finishing moves -- are more applicable to someone like AJ Styles than Danielson. Danielson doesn't really do a lot of highspots or acrobatics, just that one springboard dive into the crowd he does in every match. And his finishes are a submission, a small package, and elbows to the face, so he can't really contribute to a finisher-fest. Match length is kind of self-indulgent but I think that just goes with the ROH territory. Shawn Michaels and Regal and Jericho really like him and I think they'd be among the first to knock internet-rep indy wrestlers for not doing things the right way and whatnot.
Making fun of the rest of ROH and its fans, though, I am right there with you. Fuck's sake, powerbombs on the floor in the opening 20 minute match and such.
(edited by JustinShapiro on 20.6.10 1642)
I don't think that's fair to a guy like Styles. I guess earlier in his career it might have a modicum of truth. I think he's developed into a really well rounded performer. Kurt Angle called him the best in ring performer in a recent interview.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeBut, other than Paul Heyman, I wouldn't have anybody else running a company for me if I owned one.
Yeah, I am a big fan of misanthropic people holding important positions in multimillion dollar international businesses, too.
I really do not care about somebody's personality behind the scenes if what they produce for my consumption is enjoyable. (as long as they are not breaking any laws)
I guess I'm not a die-hard wrestling fan because I'm not in the streets protesting in anguish and screaming, "It's still real to me dammit!" (Speaking of which, I wonder how long it will take the "darling the wrestling"--and maybe some of those die-hard fans--to realize that wrestling is a work. And that wrestling a 75-minute match full of chops, flips, highspots and finishing moves-for-finishing moves doesn't make you a great wrestler or the "best in the world," it makes you a mark for yourself. Especially when guys like Hulk Hogan and John Cena made and will make 100 times the money for doing 100 times less in just 10 minutes. Terry Funk and Bobby Heenan's words, not mine.)
He can bury Vince McMahon all he wants and say Dana White is beating him at his own game, but what does it matter?
So if Indy Wrestler A isn't important because Big League Wrestler A makes more money, why isn't Promoter A (Dana White) not more important because he makes more money than Promoter B?
And really, I think it's stupid to base any argument at all on how much money a person makes, unless you are arguing who the highest paid performers/promoters/entertainers, etc are.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeBut, other than Paul Heyman, I wouldn't have anybody else running a company for me if I owned one.
Yeah, I am a big fan of misanthropic people holding important positions in multimillion dollar international businesses, too.
I really do not care about somebody's personality behind the scenes if what they produce for my consumption is enjoyable. (as long as they are not breaking any laws)
Well, Jim spit in Ed Ferrara's face, slapped Santino Marella, and threatened to murder Vince Russo. He's mental. He's really smart about wrestling, but he's totally mental. I thought his ranting schtick was cool and insightful ten years ago and five years ago but I think his criticisms lose their luster when he 1) doesn't actually watch WWE TV, and 2) finds TNA so unbearable but worked there for years and it was alright enough ... until they blindsided him with the firing at which point it became the living embodiment of Shutter Island. I respect Cornette's smarts but I find it hard to take him SHIT FUCKEN GODDAMN seriously anymore.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeI really do not care about somebody's personality behind the scenes if what they produce for my consumption is enjoyable. (as long as they are not breaking any laws)
Well, that sure explains a lot...
...Anyway, that's your prerogative if you want to consume products and services made by total jerkwads; that's perfectly fine and within your rights.
The scenario you initially presented, however, and my response, were in regard to employing jerkwads in my company to produce content; it had nothing to do with consumption.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeSo if Indy Wrestler A isn't important because Big League Wrestler A makes more money, why isn't Promoter A (Dana White) not more important because he makes more money than Promoter B?
Because Promoter B (Vince McMahon) is the promoter--of all-time. If Cornette's argument is that Dana White is using McMahon's own tactics to gain market share (without really adding anything to those tactics, like McMahon did with production values, merchandising, household-name characters and culture...twice) then really, White's just the flavor of the month. He can be the man of the moment all he wants, that's the nature of life and business, but he'll never be McMahon. (At least until he has his own series of Hogans, who are known worldwide and in the most remote area of Zimbabwe for years and years.)
Originally posted by StaggerLeeAnd really, I think it's stupid to base any argument at all on how much money a person makes, unless you are arguing who the highest paid performers/promoters/entertainers, etc are.
It's professional wrestling, how much money you make is the WHOLE point of the business; it's not at all about how many subjective, arbitrarily-rated "5-star" matches you have. So no, it's not a stupid argument. In fact, there is no argument; success in professional wrestling, by its nature, is measured by the money you make and the number of butts you keep putting in the seats. That's what it means to be a good worker. In that regard, there's much about the business that's black and white. Bryan Danielson, A.J. Styles, Davey Richards, et al. are not better workers than Hulk Hogan...or John Cena, The Rock, Steve Austin or Andre The Giant. Maybe they will be eventually, but they sure are taking their sweet time to get to that day. (Who is the top draw on the indy scene, anyway?)
Like most things in life, the answer exists in the middle. So that doesn't mean you can't have good wrestling, hold-for-hold matches, but the underlying mindset needs to switch from, "OMG, how can I fit 25 super highspots into my match?" to "OMG, how can I make my character and promos draw money so I don't wind up a broken-down, miserable, drugged-out never-was who didn't get that three punches, a foot and a leg drop mean more in the long term than 45 minutes of mango salsa planchas?"
(edited by Whattaburger on 21.6.10 1627) This is all serious business.
Originally posted by Whattaburger...Anyway, that's your prerogative if you want to consume products and services made by total jerkwads; that's perfectly fine and within your rights.
Thanks again to everyone for continuing to visit The W!
Originally posted by Whattaburger The scenario you initially presented, however, and my response, were in regard to employing jerkwads in my company to produce content; it had nothing to do with consumption.
Why does any company PRODUCE any product? For it to be CONSUMED. It's the basis of capitalism. And, its safe to say that if I haven't got the money to run a wrestling promotion by this point in my life, I never will, so it's all theoretically anyway.
Because Promoter B (Vince McMahon) is the promoter--of all-time. If Cornette's argument is that Dana White is using McMahon's own tactics to gain market share (without really adding anything to those tactics, like McMahon did with production values, merchandising, household-name characters and culture...twice) then really, White's just the flavor of the month. He can be the man of the moment all he wants, that's the nature of life and business, but he'll never be McMahon. (At least until he has his own series of Hogans, who are known worldwide and in the most remote area of Zimbabwe for years and years.)
Don King would beg to differ if Vince is THE promoter of all time. And while you're busy swinging from VKMs nutsack, Dana White has a 'household name' in a movie that's made more than any WWE backed project.
It's professional wrestling, how much money you make is the WHOLE point of the business; it's not at all about how many subjective, arbitrarily-rated "5-star" matches you have. So no, it's not a stupid argument.
SO, if making money is the name of the game, and it's why you think Vince is so much head and shoulders above Dana White, you might want to know that UFC passed WWE in revenue back in 2006, and they aren't even holding 300 shows a year like WWE.
In fact, there is no argument; success in professional wrestling, by its nature, is measured by the money you make and the number of butts you keep putting in the seats. That's what it means to be a good worker. In that regard, there's much about the business that's black and white. Bryan Danielson, A.J. Styles, Davey Richards, et al. are not better workers than Hulk Hogan...or John Cena, The Rock, Steve Austin or Andre The Giant. Maybe they will be eventually, but they sure are taking their sweet time to get to that day. (Who is the top draw on the indy scene, anyway?)
I think you have WORKER and DRAW confused. Because somebody has people pay money to see them beat somebody up, or to see somebody get beat up, doesn't mean they are a good worker. If that's the case, Honkeytonk Man would be the second guy in the WWE Hall of Fame.
Like most things in life, the answer exists in the middle. So that doesn't mean you can't have good wrestling, hold-for-hold matches, but the underlying mindset needs to switch from, "OMG, how can I fit 25 super highspots into my match?" to "OMG, how can I make my character and promos draw money so I don't wind up a broken-down, miserable, drugged-out never-was who didn't get that three punches, a foot and a leg drop mean more in the long term than 45 minutes of mango salsa planchas?"
(edited by Whattaburger on 21.6.10 1627)
And that's the entire point of what Cornette is about. He's about story telling. Compelling reasons to watch a match. Logical feuds. Creating characters that people care about. And, not sure how much ROH you've seen, (and I am a new fan, so I can only speak to the last month or so) but all the flipping and cruiser weight stuff isn't there as much as other indy feds.
For the sake of being civil, let me just say now that maaaaaybe we're debating passed each other. But in case we're not...
Originally posted by StaggerLeeWhy does any company PRODUCE any product? For it to be CONSUMED. It's the basis of capitalism. And, its safe to say that if I haven't got the money to run a wrestling promotion by this point in my life, I never will, so it's all theoretically anyway.
(Sigh) Again, my point wasn't about WHY it's being produced or WHO is consuming; it was about WHO is producing content and why I wouldn't want jerkwads in my company. Repeat: It had nothing to do with consumption. (And Zed, you're welcome.)
Of course it's all theoretical. Obviously, my initial comment was still too subtle for your delicate sensibilities. Please accept my humblest apologies for making you believe that I actually believed you had the billions of dollars necessary to start an international pro wrestling company. Truly, my mistake.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeDon King would beg to differ if Vince is THE promoter of all time. And while you're busy swinging from VKMs nutsack, Dana White has a 'household name' in a movie that's made more than any WWE backed project.
Don King, huh? Yeah, moving on...
Yep, I set up a tire-swing on them (LOLZ u implied i wuz teh gay). But seriously, what kind of argument is that? So, because Rampage Jackson is in the "A-Team," then Dana White surely has surpassed Vince McMahon. OK, let's go with that; here's my answer to that logic: The Rock.
By the way, let me know when Dana White's UFC produces (among other things): ice cream bars, a two-season Saturday morning cartoon show, breakfast cereal, a branded event culturally on par with mainstream Championship finals and employees known by generations of people living in the most remote areas of the world.
Originally posted by StaggerLee
It's professional wrestling, how much money you make is the WHOLE point of the business; it's not at all about how many subjective, arbitrarily-rated "5-star" matches you have. So no, it's not a stupid argument.
SO, if making money is the name of the game, and it's why you think Vince is so much head and shoulders above Dana White, you might want to know that UFC passed WWE in revenue back in 2006, and they aren't even holding 300 shows a year like WWE.
No, sir, you've clearly misunderstood the first part of that statement. In PRO WRESTLING, how much money you make is the whole point of the business. And it is also the only objective criteria for judging the strength/quality/status of talent; it's not about choreographed, pre-determined "5-star" matches.
But, sure...when UFC reaches that same level of pop cultural significance WWE and pro wrestling have, then hooray for them. They definitely seem to be on their way, but they haven't met all of WWE's explicit and implicit standards.
You seem to think I didn't say Dana White isn't doing a good job. He is doing a great job, no doubt; he's the man. That's great that UFC surpassed WWE four years ago in 2006. I'm sure Kobe has surpassed Jordan on many levels, too, but the adage is still, "I wanna be like Mike." I don't think WWE is losing that much money, and I don't think Vince feels his business is that threatened; he has a television show with television stars. In terms, of entertainment significance, that's a little higher up on the ladder. The point is, and my objection to Cornette's logic, was that if Vince tomorrow decided to use the same techniques White "stole" (as well as a few other small changes), he'd be right back in the thick of competition because he has the infrastructure already in place. There's obviously a market for what WWE produces, which is why it is the way it is.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeI think you have WORKER and DRAW confused. Because somebody has people pay money to see them beat somebody up, or to see somebody get beat up, doesn't mean they are a good worker. If that's the case, Honkeytonk Man would be the second guy in the WWE Hall of Fame.
No, that would be Randy Savage, along with Bruno Sammartino and whole host of other guys. (Are you really serious with that point, knowing the nature of the WWE Hall of Fame?)
Yeah, I guess I am confused between what a WORKER and a DRAW are. Let's have Bobby Heenan clear this up, he's of some repute in the business:
Originally posted by Bobby Heenan, 2002 RF Video Shoot Guys that are always underneath, will always be underneath. If guys want to be champion, they'll get there; if they don't they won't. Other guys think, "I can work"...that doesn't mean you can put asses in the seat--that's what a worker is...It all boils down to money; if you're in this business for anything more than money, you're a fool. Monsoon told me that.
Everyone is a worker, but a GOOD worker is the one that DRAWS MONEY. Austin > Hogan > Danielson.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeAnd that's the entire point of what Cornette is about. He's about story telling. Compelling reasons to watch a match. Logical feuds. Creating characters that people care about. And, not sure how much ROH you've seen, (and I am a new fan, so I can only speak to the last month or so) but all the flipping and cruiser weight stuff isn't there as much as other indy feds.
Yes, we can agree. I didn't say Cornette didn't have a few points, he just has some big holes in certain parts of his logic.
As for ROH, what I've seen is guys doing big money moves and still not winning the match. Not saying this is the totality of what they are, but I certainly wasn't impressed. Nor was I impressed by their fans, with the whole, "We're smart fa-aans! >clap, clap, clapclapclap!< We're smart fans! >clap, clap, clapclapclap!<"
You are nice to throw in The Rock. The Rock never made as much money as Dwayne Johnson, and Dwayne Johnson is nowhere near where Rampage Jackson will be when the totals for The A Team are in.
As for ice cream, saturday morning cartoons, and the like, is something that's 25 years ago really relevant? We've seen more season of The Ultimate Fighter than we did Tuff Enough.
MMA has more companies that are producing more shows that make money, than Pro Wrestling.
It used to be there were seven or eight indy feds around St Louis, now I think they're down to two. But, I can see MMA every Friday night.
I have just started catching this show on Univision, or Telemundo, whatever the spanish speaking channel is. (the one with less hot chicks on all the shows) Anyhow, I was suprised at reaction for La Parka. HUGE is an understatement as to how over he is....
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