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The W - Movies & TV - Game of Thrones 4x4 "Oathkeeper" (Page 2)
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Amos Cochran
Lap cheong








Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 3375 days
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.30
I don't think you quite grasp how to engage with complexity in dramatic fiction. Like, I'm not trying to ouright slam you here, although it will likely come across that way, but the way you discuss these things - the face/heel references, the dismissal of Brienne, the entire mishegoss with Jamie - you're smoothing things over rather than engaging with it.

I mean, if Jamie weren't a complex character, him raping Cersei wouldn't be anywhere near as troubling to the viewer as it was. It would be unpleasant to watch, but as a bad guy it would be a cut and dried "this is what he does" thing. He's a fascinating character, often repellent, but fascinating. His "kingslayer" moniker alone - how he got it, the public's misconception of the act that earned him the name, how he feels about it - would be enough to weave a compelling character from, but there's the relationship with his sister and father, his desire to do right in the worst of situations, his love for Tyrion. He's a great, great character.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 2562 days
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.74
Why in the world has this turned into such a big deal? Rape/Not, don't care. Makes absolutely no difference to me, Jamie is incredibly interesting as a character.

On to more interesting things; that last scene!!!!! Did HBO slip up in their recap by calling the Great Other by The Night's King? Man I almost hope it's true. Former Night's Watch Lord Commander and Stark(I think I recall that right).

Now he leads the "Others". Are they unable to reproduce or are they still holding to their vows as men of the Night's Watch? Only taking male babies. Are they the real watchers, coming forth now to stop a threat to the world by fire(A Song of Ice and Fire)? Why didn't they come before now then? Prophecy?

Martin has stated he doesn't do pure good versus evil in his stories. Will be interesting to see who the Others really are and what they want.
Shadowhendrix
Linguica








Since: 27.6.08

Since last post: 3578 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.01
    Originally posted by lotjx
    If it were Joffery instead of Jamie doing what he did to say Marg, would people feel differently about it.


Its like you completely ignore the arguments everyone made to make statements that no one is really disagreeing with in the first place.

Joffery and Marg don't have a history of sexual encounters where one of them is at least ACTING like they are resisting and protesting. There would be no mitigating circumstances to discuss from a character motivational standpoint. So of course, people would feel differently about it.

    Originally posted by lotjx
    This whole notion of Jamie is complex is bullshit. He is all smoke and mirrors, he is a shallow fuck with a nice smile and a charisma score of 18. That is it. He interacted with Brie to save his ass and is only doing what he is doing now, because he would make him look like a total ass.


So...shallow fuck Jamie...saved his captor/escort from being gang raped by lying to armed men (a continuation of this type of lie which would eventually cost him his sword hand), then RETURNED to save her from a pit fight with a BEAR after he has already procured safe passage to Kings Landing? You know, his ultimate objective over the course of the past 2 books/seasons? He risked all of that because he was ...worried about looking like a total ass? To whom, exactly? The girl who would have otherwise been eaten by the aforementioned bear would have been the only witness. He would have been clear to return to Kings Landing and under no pressure to return the now missing stark hostages.
He threw all of that away to...save face?


Or are you referring to the present interaction with Brie, when he has armor custom made for her and gives away a blade of legendary quality to honor an oath he swore to an enemy of his family who happens to now be dead? He is concerned with doing these niceties to save face...to whom exactly? And what is he saving face for? Raping his sister? No one knows about that but his sister, who would probably be disgusted with him for honoring the debt to the Starks.

The more I think about this, the less I understand what your point is.

Look, I'm not disputing the actions of Jamie are among the most vile in the series. Regardless of whatever corners he may attempt to turn later in his life, he will never escape the fact that he pushed a 10 year old kid out a window, fathered three illegitimate children with his sister, murdered various people during his desperate escape to get back to his sister, etc. Those events will be his ultimate legacy. But to ignore/dismiss the other half of what he has done and what is unfolding currently in the story just seems incredibly short-sighted, and I question what you enjoy about this series at all, because the complex characters are really its defining feature.

You have a link in your signature to your reviews of other types of entertainment media, but I don't know how you'd ever expect anyone to listen to your thoughts if they are all either incredibly dismissive or nothing more than simply observational in nature.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 12 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.69

Jamie is the only character in the entire franchise who has undergone such a transformation - from apparent lead villain in his confrontations with Ned Stark to attempting to protect the remaining Stark children from his once lover/sister Cersei. He is easily the most complicated character in the entire story, which is probably why the 'lowest common denominators' struggle so much with his storyline.

    Originally posted by Shadowhendrix
    Its like you completely ignore the arguments everyone made to make statements that no one is really disagreeing with in the first place.


It's a noble endeavor you've undertaken here, Shadowhendrix - but believe me when I tell you that it is a futile exercise.

    Originally posted by Shadowhendrix
    I don't know how you'd ever expect anyone to listen to your thoughts if they are all either incredibly dismissive or nothing more than simply observational in nature.


I think his gimmick should be to list his thoughts in some sort of list. Like a Top Ten list... may be a Professional Top Ten list... (no, that's not it... I'm sure I'll come up with something...)

Shadowhendrix
Linguica








Since: 27.6.08

Since last post: 3578 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.01
I'm aware I'm fighting an uphill battle here. I had him pegged as a pessimist/jaded type in most of the other threads, which I take no issue with.

It just bugs me when I (quasi-professional devil's advocate) can't make a remotely rational argument to justify the complaints of these types, so that's usually when I start posting. That or when they make tasteless "tranny" remarks that get me fired up, apparently.

For what it is worth, this episode, and entire series has been great for me. I'm only into book 4 (but know how the series plays out through all of the published books so far), and its pretty amazing watching this episode with my roomate (huge fan of the books), who consistently throws his hands up and says "I have no idea which book we are even remotely in anymore!" any time we leave King's Landing.

[He loves the series too, since he is constantly surprised by the deviations from the source material he has been following for over a decade.]
Madame Manga
Boudin rouge








Since: 16.1.02
From: Silicon Valley

Since last post: 2804 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

Jaime is probably the grayest character in the whole story - capable both of honorable acts and of appalling crimes. He's remarkably clear-sighted about his own hypocrisy and that of his culture. In that sense he's a human key for the whole series. One of his most important establishing lines was in the first episode.

'The things I do for love...' *pushes Bran out the window*

He acts out of love - a twisted, damaged love for his sister, and for love of his idea of personal honor. What he does has consistent grounding if you don't try to cram him into an artificial character type with a clear alignment or a plot-dictated 'direction'.

I thought the show-runners understood that, from how they've treated him up until recently. There have been a lot of deviations from the book storyline, but generally in character and in service of the overall themes. Some things they've changed were great improvements over the books. Sometimes they've gone a touch overboard with the sex and torture, but ehh, it's cable TV.

Then that rape scene, out of nowhere. It's obvious from their comments that the writers and the director lacked any clue how that was going to come across to the vast majority of viewers. It's not that you can't ever introduce rape into a drama, especially one like GoT. It's not that Jaime is incapable of violating people - hell no. What fucking appalls me is that they apparently didn't even realize what they were doing. Just 'amping up the drama' or something, like adding in more bare butts and flayings.

Rape is a nuclear option in fiction. It unbalances everything, just as it does in real life. There's no use pretending there's no such thing as fallout, but that's exactly the mistake they seem to be perpetuating. Like Cersei being 'hateful' justifies whatever Jaime might do to her, so they can make out it was only more of the same where these diseased lovebirds are concerned and maybe she hits the bottle a little harder and snarks at him a little more, but no biggie, she was doing that anyway. This gets worse every time I think about it. The show has lost my trust on fundamentals, and I'm not sure yet if they're ever getting it back.

I like Brienne, and I like her relationship with Jaime, and the scene where he gives her the sword and the armor and an honorable quest he can't fulfill on his own should have been one of the high points of the series. It bugs the shit out of me that I couldn't enjoy it as much as I wanted to.
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 1681 days
Last activity: 1520 days
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.34
    Originally posted by Shadowhendrix
      Originally posted by lotjx
      If it were Joffery instead of Jamie doing what he did to say Marg, would people feel differently about it.


    Its like you completely ignore the arguments everyone made to make statements that no one is really disagreeing with in the first place.

    Joffery and Marg don't have a history of sexual encounters where one of them is at least ACTING like they are resisting and protesting. There would be no mitigating circumstances to discuss from a character motivational standpoint. So of course, people would feel differently about it.

      Originally posted by lotjx
      This whole notion of Jamie is complex is bullshit. He is all smoke and mirrors, he is a shallow fuck with a nice smile and a charisma score of 18. That is it. He interacted with Brie to save his ass and is only doing what he is doing now, because he would make him look like a total ass.


    So...shallow fuck Jamie...saved his captor/escort from being gang raped by lying to armed men (a continuation of this type of lie which would eventually cost him his sword hand), then RETURNED to save her from a pit fight with a BEAR after he has already procured safe passage to Kings Landing? You know, his ultimate objective over the course of the past 2 books/seasons? He risked all of that because he was ...worried about looking like a total ass? To whom, exactly? The girl who would have otherwise been eaten by the aforementioned bear would have been the only witness. He would have been clear to return to Kings Landing and under no pressure to return the now missing stark hostages.
    He threw all of that away to...save face?


    Or are you referring to the present interaction with Brie, when he has armor custom made for her and gives away a blade of legendary quality to honor an oath he swore to an enemy of his family who happens to now be dead? He is concerned with doing these niceties to save face...to whom exactly? And what is he saving face for? Raping his sister? No one knows about that but his sister, who would probably be disgusted with him for honoring the debt to the Starks.

    The more I think about this, the less I understand what your point is.

    Look, I'm not disputing the actions of Jamie are among the most vile in the series. Regardless of whatever corners he may attempt to turn later in his life, he will never escape the fact that he pushed a 10 year old kid out a window, fathered three illegitimate children with his sister, murdered various people during his desperate escape to get back to his sister, etc. Those events will be his ultimate legacy. But to ignore/dismiss the other half of what he has done and what is unfolding currently in the story just seems incredibly short-sighted, and I question what you enjoy about this series at all, because the complex characters are really its defining feature.

    You have a link in your signature to your reviews of other types of entertainment media, but I don't know how you'd ever expect anyone to listen to your thoughts if they are all either incredibly dismissive or nothing more than simply observational in nature.


I enjoy the series til Book 5 and you will see why. Unless, they change it. Which is what they fucking did here. They changed it exactly like Madame said to up the drama of the show. It is not short sighted to point out the utter bullshit with the he is a complex character. It bullshit to say "Well...looking at the few good things he did, I guess we will give him a pass here." Which is what you are doing. You got bullshited like Brie did into liking this guy, because he is good looking and charming. You believe he is this deep pool when its just a long deep end.

So, if I said it was Sansa instead of Marge would that have made it better? No, either way its rape. There is no getting around it. The fact they choose to ignore shows how clueless they are. There will be no repercussions for this unless they change the story like they did the first time.

Also, I enjoy the shows I review for the most part. Yet, I am not going to be blind when a show fucks up. I am not going to give a character or show a pass when they colossal screw something up. GoT has a game plan, a game plan that is laid out for them. Where stuff is literally laid out for them to pick and choose from to film. Yet, they choose to do this for no other reason than shock value. The fact the production seems blind to this is troubling.


(edited by lotjx on 29.4.14 1840)

(edited by lotjx on 29.4.14 1841)

http://comicbookspotlight.wordpress.com/

Now reviewing Shield, Arrow and something called Winter Soldier.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 12 days
Last activity: 6 days
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.79

I'm getting way too old to get into a pissing contest on an internet message board with a moron.... but I've had a pretty shitty day and I really feel like taking it out on someone... so congrats, lotjx, I'm your huckleberry.

    Originally posted by lotjx
    It is not short sighted to point out the utter bullshit with the he is a complex character. It bullshit to say "Well...looking at the few good things he did, I guess we will give him a pass here." Which is what you are doing.


It is ENTIRELY short-sided to dismiss the development of an entire multi-seasonal arch of a character without offering a SHRED of insight to backup your claim. Which means 1) either we're all missing something on which you're picking up yet you're deciding to not share , or 2) Martin is swerving everyone big time and you're just guessing, or 3) you're just being a dick.

    Originally posted by lotjx
    Yet, they choose to do this for no other reason than shock value. The fact the production seems blind to this is troubling.


How can it be 'just for shock value' when you already think Jamie is a crappy guy swerving everyone?

It totally plays into your narrative that Jamie IS NOT such a nice guy after all and - maybe he gave Ned's sword to Brienne because SCREW NED and SCREW BRIENNE THE TRANNY WILL GET SANSA KILLED ANYWAY? Of course, then you have to explain why he risked his life to save Brienne. Maybe he's changed his mind? He is the Kingslayer, so he's known for betraying people at the drop of a hat, so maybe that's his game plan?

See, I've already provided more insight in one parody paragraph than you have in... what, three posts now?

lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 1681 days
Last activity: 1520 days
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.34
    Originally posted by Leroy

    I'm getting way too old to get into a pissing contest on an internet message board with a moron.... but I've had a pretty shitty day and I really feel like taking it out on someone... so congrats, lotjx, I'm your huckleberry.

      Originally posted by lotjx
      It is not short sighted to point out the utter bullshit with the he is a complex character. It bullshit to say "Well...looking at the few good things he did, I guess we will give him a pass here." Which is what you are doing.


    It is ENTIRELY short-sided to dismiss the development of an entire multi-seasonal arch of a character without offering a SHRED of insight to backup your claim. Which means 1) either we're all missing something on which you're picking up yet you're deciding to not share , or 2) Martin is swerving everyone big time and you're just guessing, or 3) you're just being a dick.

      Originally posted by lotjx
      Yet, they choose to do this for no other reason than shock value. The fact the production seems blind to this is troubling.


    How can it be 'just for shock value' when you already think Jamie is a crappy guy swerving everyone?

    It totally plays into your narrative that Jamie IS NOT such a nice guy after all and - maybe he gave Ned's sword to Brienne because SCREW NED and SCREW BRIENNE THE TRANNY WILL GET SANSA KILLED ANYWAY? Of course, then you have to explain why he risked his life to save Brienne. Maybe he's changed his mind? He is the Kingslayer, so he's known for betraying people at the drop of a hat, so maybe that's his game plan?

    See, I've already provided more insight in one parody paragraph than you have in... what, three posts now?




You are really a nobody to me. He risked his life for Brie at times out of self preservation. A few times he does it, because he likes Brie, but make not mistake about it, he is using her. He is using her to get home, because he knows Cat made a shitty deal with him. He does like her, but it doesn't change anything about his character.

I think Jamie is a shitty character on the show. In the books, he is just ok. I don't want to give too much away, but unless they change things, he has one more good so-called noble scene and that is for him. Even in that scene, its revealed he is a complete asshole. There is another scene, but it won't be filmed due to events from last season. The rape scene going for shock value just amps up my problems wit the Jamie character. He is a rapist, murder and potential child killer. That is who he is and no matter of good works is going to change that.



http://comicbookspotlight.wordpress.com/

Now reviewing Shield, Arrow and something called Winter Soldier.
Shadowhendrix
Linguica








Since: 27.6.08

Since last post: 3578 days
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.01
In addition to Leroy's remarks, I have to ask:

Are you suggesting that the POV chapters from Jaime in the books are done with the intention of providing the readers with false inner monologue, and that he is just working everyone? Is Jamie the Deadpool of Westeros, realizing he is in a fantasy story, and is using this to deceive the readers? This is about the only way I could see your interpretation of this "shallow" character remotely working out.

Also, major props to Manga's analysis. I don't find my trust in the show shaken like she apparently does, but I don't find her position remotely unreasonable either. That's why I won't end up debating her on it, because I see how people could reasonably come to the conclusion that she did. That's all you can really ask of people discussing subjective fictional works.

You seem stuck on this idea that everyone is talking about the moral alignment of Jamie. No one here is denying he has performed absolute evil. No one here is arguing that his recent deeds have absolved him of his prior sins. What we are arguing is that his current place in his journey is COMPLEX, and COMPELLING, because he is continually behaving in ways that contradict everything we had previously come to know about the character. No one here is saying they like Jaime because he is handsome and a smooth talker (seriously, what is your obsession with that?) We are instead drawn in by the journey of this asshole who realizes more and more that he can no longer lean on his sword hand to back up the evil things he has done, and now that he can no longer easily partake in those evil things, the sister that was once his greatest desire ends up fading away as the primary objective of his life. He's still an asshole though, and ruthless when he has to be (book 5).



    He risked his life for Brie at times out of self preservation. A few times he does it, because he likes Brie, but make not mistake about it, he is using her. He is using her to get home, because he knows Cat made a shitty deal with him. He does like her, but it doesn't change anything about his character.



The following statements are in bullet points this time to emphasize that these statements are directly in conflict with the premise you have offered:

-He attempts to escape from Brie, in the process duels her, telling her she must kill him and break her vows or be killed by him. Their duel is interrupted by Hoat's men.

(From this point forward, sociopath Jaime who killed his own relatives to stage an escape from Robb has absolutely ZERO use for her. None. He is a captive of Hoat/Bolton.)

-He prevents her from being gang raped by offering a lie about Sapphire Ransoms, a continuation of this lie using the gold of his own family costs him his hand. (What was his motivation here? Why would he save the woman he just tried to kill?)

-After he is free and clear to return to Kings Landing, he orders his caravan back to save her from the bear pit, risking the entire effort to return to his family for this girl. (Why did he return when he had a clear path to get back to his sister, his primary objective for the duration of the series to this point?)

-At King's Landing, Loras Tyrell, new ally of the Crown, still holds a grudge towards Brie for her "role" in Renly's murder. It would have been child's play for the Lions to offer her head to the Tyrells to placate them and further their new alliance. Jamie goes out of his way to protect her during this, and make sure it does not happen. (Why did he put this lowly woman ahead of the possible political interests of his family?)

-He gives Brie a weapon of legendary quality, a new tailored suit of armor, etc, and sends her on a quest to uphold a promise he made to a dead woman that is directly contrary to the interests of his own family. (Why did he uphold honor to a dead woman and a family that is all but destroyed in the north? Why did he go through the trouble of giving away one of the rarest weapons in the land that his house had always wanted?)

All of those cannot be dismissed with the blanket statement that he simply likes Brie and/or is using her for something. There are too many competing interests at play there.



(edited by Shadowhendrix on 29.4.14 2114)
Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong








Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 61 days
Last activity: 30 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.80
Lotjx, if you're going to continue to discuss books, could you first learn to read?

Because in just the last two posts you've made, I see three instances where you flat-out read wrong:

1) You said Shadowhendrix was giving Jaime a pass for his actions, which SH actually called "among the most vile in the series". I suppose you could be claiming here that acknowledging that he's also done good things amounts to giving him a pass on the bad things, but if so you need to say so, not to mention provide some justification for it.

2) You ask whether SH would consider it rape if you had said Joffrey would have the same thing to Sansa instead of Margery. This completely misses the fact that SH *DID* say that Joffrey doing the same thing to Margery would be rape, and that in fact there would be no difference in his logic whether it were Margery or Sansa. There's no rhetorical point you're making here, as far as I can tell--you just straight up didn't understand what SH was saying.

3) You repeat your assertion that Jaime was nice to Brienne just to assure his way back to King's Landing, but it's already been pointed out that he went back to save Brienne when he already had clear passage to King's Landing. So that makes no sense.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it's frustrating to see you keep up a debate without being willing and/or able to understand and address the points being made.

On a lighter note...is it just me, or does Karl kind of look like John Cena? There were moments where I half-expected him to do You Can't See Me to Jojen. B^)
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