The Oakland Athletics continued to wheel and deal Saturday, sending starting pitcher Mark Mulder to the St. Louis Cardinals for pitchers Danny Haren, Kiko Calero and catcher Daric Barton, ESPN's Peter Gammons has learned.
Given Mulder's alarming nosedive that at least in large part helped to cost Oakland the division title last season, and the fact that they may not have been able to re-sign Mulder long term (or want to), they may have made a really good deal here if Haren pans out. His current deal expired after the 2005 season, and even hanging onto him for part of next year could've turned out to be a gamble. If he started slow, his value dipped further. They got something that may be of value, rather than something worse, or, possibly, nothing at all had they kept him through '05 and then couldn't afford to hang onto him.
This deal makes sense from Oakland's perspective, and from the Cardinals' perspective. It's surprising, but this is kind of what Beane does. More surprising is if Beane knew he had a deal on the table for Mulder and decided to move Hudson anyway, but this may have just come up and he thought it was too good to pass up. If Haren becomes a solid starter, they'll still have Zito, Rich Harden and Dan Haren next year. But right now I think they're more looking ahead than they are just next year. Harden, at 22, had a nice year in '04 and could emerge as a front-end starter very quickly.
They have to keep ushering in good players through the system and getting back what they can for the players they develop, because the odds of them being able to hang onto them are not in their favor.
I guess this makes sense, but I really didn't want to see Danny go. Sup, I guess. Marquis, sure. But not Haren. After the rough start in Chicago during the first half, he really came around and gave the indication he was going to have a breakout 2005; he was the NL Champs' best pitcher in September.
Calero I'll miss, too. With Kliney gone thanks to arbitration as well as this deal, that bullpen's starting to get weaker. At least King's signed up.
Hierarchy of Deities: Sarah Vowell > Roger Ebert > Albert Pujols > God
So, um, I don't want you to believe everything you hear at the parent-teacher conference, okay, 'cause...they lie. And they exaggerate. That's why they're teachers, right? Those who can't, right, Mom? Those who can't.
This one came out of nowhere. The Cardinals finally have an Ace. 6 months ago, who would have believed that Zito would be in Oakland and the rest of the Big 3 would be gone? And, let's see if "MoneyBall" works without the aces.
There's Moneyball, and that's all well and good, but there's also a little thing called having three aces on your staff, and when you trade two of them, you're not going to be good. Harden and Zito will keep them from totally falling off the face of the earth but it's bye bye A'd for the near future, unless Blanton and whomever else they have down on the farm are really good really quick.
And it warms my heart to see that the A's traded BOTH Hudson and Mulder and the wonderful O's GMs had enough restraint not to pick up a proven ace. Because, you know, picking up an ace certainly wasn't the game plan heading into the offseason. I hate to complain, but by that things are sounding like, we had a chance to get Hudson but wouldn't give up a package of Bedard, John Maine, and Hayden Penn. Why, I do not know, perhaps so as not to jeopardize the fifteen year plan to return to mediocrity.
I don't think that there's anything to be worried about with Mulder. He dropped of pretty badly at the end of last year, but before that he was always stunningly consistent, and a really effecient workhorse. I'm not especially farmiliar with the guys the Cards gave up, but I've never heard that Haren is a great prospect or anything (at least I've never heard that he'd be as good as Mulder is and could be). I'm jst bitter that theO's let another guy get by them.
And IIRC, Mulder's deal expires after 2006, not after this season. Hudson's deal is up after this year and Zito and Mulder are up for renewal in 2006.
Originally posted by odessasteps As I just said elsewhere, maybe Steve Schott is trying to beat Florida and Montreal to Las Vegas.
Not the first place I've heard that. He supposedly wanted to move the team to San Jose anyway, didn't he?
Originally posted by BigSteveThere's Moneyball, and that's all well and good, but there's also a little thing called having three aces on your staff, and when you trade two of them, you're not going to be good. Harden and Zito will keep them from totally falling off the face of the earth but it's bye bye A'd for the near future, unless Blanton and whomever else they have down on the farm are really good really quick.
They're certainly looking weaker next year, but they do have a hell of a young staff. I believe the rotation stands at Zito, Harden, Haren, Meyer and Blanton. And according to Gammo, Beane believes Harden will be a legit #1. The way Beane is gambling on all these young players, I have to believe he sees something in them, and, clearly, he knows something about the game of baseball. While that doesn't guarantee results, I'm not ready to write the A's off yet.
Also, if Beane determined he wasn't re-signing either of those guys, he certainly got more value this way then by simply letting them walk. And maybe Hudson's hip is still bothering him, we don't know.
(edited by PalpatineW on 19.12.04 0039) The master wouldn't approve.
The biggest gamble of all of this is whether Barry Zito wakes up from a terrible 2004. He was only a .500 pitcher and was either sink or swim every time he took the mound. He will need a big bounce back. If we get it, we could be OK...Zito, Harden, and one other guy working out gives us a top three, which is as good as anyone else in the West has. If Zito bottoms out under the pressure and expectations, it could be a very long season.
Zito's big issue is that his old pitching coach left Oakland before 2004. Maybe he's gotten over it, maybe not.
And geez, Billy, you couldn't have dealt one of your aces to your old protege JP in Toronto, eh? We could've offered you....uh...Eric Hinske?
I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits." --- President Jed Bartlett, The West Wing
Originally posted by BigVitoMarkThe biggest gamble of all of this is whether Barry Zito wakes up from a terrible 2004. He was only a .500 pitcher and was either sink or swim every time he took the mound.
If you space out Mark Mulder's total worthlessness down the stretch over the entire season, he and Barry Zito had pretty much the exact same year.
ERA WHIP W L IP K ERA+ Zito 4.48 1.39 11 11 213 163 105 Mulder 4.43 1.36 17 8 225 140 106
Harden, in fact, was better than either of them.
ERA WHIP W L IP K ERA+ Harden 3.99 1.33 11 7 189 167 117
So I think the A's should be okay if one of the other three (Haren, Meyer, Blanton) produce, Harden continues to improve, and Zito could even repeat his 2004 performance. Pitching-wise, anyway.
Originally posted by BigSteveAnd it warms my heart to see that the A's traded BOTH Hudson and Mulder and the wonderful O's GMs had enough restraint not to pick up a proven ace. Because, you know, picking up an ace certainly wasn't the game plan heading into the offseason. I hate to complain, but by that things are sounding like, we had a chance to get Hudson but wouldn't give up a package of Bedard, John Maine, and Hayden Penn. Why, I do not know, perhaps so as not to jeopardize the fifteen year plan to return to mediocrity.
With the offense they developed last season, wouldn't it have made some sort of sense this off-season for the Orioles to focus on acquiring front line pitching instead of trying to get more hitting? They aren't going to outslug Boston and New York, and even if they could, both have good enough pitching to shut down the Orioles enough for their hitting to take advantage of the O's pitching staff (outside of B.J. Ryan). Of course, even though Sosa is on the downward slope, he might be the exception to getting pitching over hitting, just on the principle that getting rid of an arsonist like Julio is an upgrade. Imagine Julio and Hawkins in the Cubs bullpen. Suicide rates among Cubbie fans would skyrocket.
Sory RSN. I should be more clear when I'm being sarcastic :). (If you wree disagreeing with me that is...)
I totally agree with what you say. I don't neccessarily want Sosa, but if the Cubs are willing to pay a significant portion of his salary, and we don't have to give up a ton to get him, then I wouldn't complain. But my concern is, if they get Sosa, they can't make a run at Magglio Ordonez, who seems to be the only guy left on the free agent market that's worth getting excited over. Obviously there's Beltran, but it seems he's all but certainly going to New York or Houston.
Originally posted by redsoxnation Imagine Julio and Hawkins in the Cubs bullpen. Suicide rates among Cubbie fans would skyrocket.
If Hawkins is setting up, there won't be any problems. He's proven a couple of times that he's a top notch set-up man. He has also proven that he's disastoruous as a closer. I see no reason why the Cubs would want to trade for Julio. I realize has had the "Closer" label for the last couple of years, but They already have a guy with a ten cent head and a million dollar arm that gives up too many gopher balls in Kyle Farnsworth. Just make him the closer and save the crappy trade. The Cubs also have little use for Hairston, unless they want to piss off T. Walker. I do not want Hairston as our regular left fielder. That would be an epic mistake.
Originally posted by redsoxnationWith the offense they developed last season, wouldn't it have made some sort of sense this off-season for the Orioles to focus on acquiring front line pitching instead of trying to get more hitting?
Management wanted another RH bat to stick into the lineup. They also wanted somebody else who can play 1B since the plan is to keep Palmeiro around 50 games and to have Javy Lopez play 25-30 games there.
Originally posted by redsoxnationThey aren't going to outslug Boston and New York, and even if they could, both have good enough pitching to shut down the Orioles enough for their hitting to take advantage of the O's pitching staff (outside of B.J. Ryan).
True, but the Orioles have been in on the action on Radke, Clement, Pavano, and Hudson. They didn't overpay for the free-agents and they refused to give up their prospects without a 72-hour window to negotiate with Hudson, when just about everybody knew Hudson wanted to be in Atlanta in 2006 anyway. We need the pitching, but I'm glad they haven't overpayed.
If we can get Sosa for Julio and Gibbons, like the rumor is, then I pull the trigger. Gibbons will be non-tendered tomorrow anyway.
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men....that's the meaning of Christmas, Charlie Brown. - Linus van Pelt
Originally posted by GrimisHIf we can get Sosa for Julio and Gibbons, like the rumor is, then I pull the trigger. Gibbons will be non-tendered tomorrow anyway.
This is the second place I've heard this rumor. I hope its true, just because Gibbons would be better return than Hairston.
Originally posted by WhitebaconI hope its true, just because Gibbons would be better return than Hairston.
Either one has risks. Both have a propensity to injury. Gibbons got bulky and forgot how to hit last year. Hairston at least can play 2nd and the outfield.
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men....that's the meaning of Christmas, Charlie Brown. - Linus van Pelt
Originally posted by Abmulabmu"If you space out Mark Mulder's total worthlessness down the stretch over the entire season, he and Barry Zito had pretty much the exact same year."
That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You belong here with talk like that.
Why is that, exactly? At least Scott brought some numbers to back up his statement. You bring nothing except a dogmatic response and a wise-ass comment? WTF? Please elaborate.
“To get ass, you’ve got to bring ass." -- Roy Jones Jr.
"Your input has been noted. I hope you don't take it personally if I disregard it." -- Guru Zim
I of course had to play against Green this week. Oh yeah, and the guy I'm playing has Unit (he's classic), Derek Lowe AND Odalis Perez. Yes, I'm getting smoked.
Thread rated: 6.03
#
#
