OAKLAND, Calif. (ESPN) -- The Oakland Athletics traded left-hander Ted Lilly to the Toronto Blue Jays on Tuesday for outfielder Bobby Kielty. The A's also got cash or a player to be named.
Lilly went 12-10 with a 4.34 ERA and 147 strikeouts as the Athletics' fourth starter last season. Lilly was 6-1 with a 2.06 ERA in his final seven starts of the regular season while emerging as the most consistent starter in Oakland's powerful rotation during the team's drive to the AL West title.
Kielty hit .244 with 13 homers and 57 RBI last season with Toronto and Minnesota. The Twins traded him to the Blue Jays on July 16 for Shannon Stewart.Kielty has 27 home runs, 117 RBI and a .367 on-base percentage in three major league seasons.
Beane also was working on a trade with San Diego that would send All-Star catcher Ramon Hernandez and disgruntled outfielder Terrence Long to the Padres for outfielder Mark Kotsay, but the deal hadn't been reached by late Tuesday.
According to what I've heard on the local stations, the Kotsay for Hernandez/Long is done except for a couple of contractual things. The Padres will announce it tonight or first thing tomorrow morning. Expect Giles to move to CF with Nady and Klesko playing the corners. Long will spell all three.
Attempted murder... really. Do they give a Nobel Prize for Attempted Chemistry?
Wow, the Jays are putting together a pretty decent staff all of a sudden. If they can win 85 games with those jokers from last year, think of what will happen in 2004.
Let's put this in the plainest terms possible: Darryl Strawberry has no business instructing anybody about anything. He has never done a thing in his life to warrant a position of guidance. Not on the field. Not off the field.-- David Vescey, si.com
This is not exactly the catcher I was hoping for, but it's probably better than it could have been. I was hoping for Pudge, expecting Kendall.
Is Long going to be better than Gary Matthews Jr. off of the bench?
I really hope they pick up some pitching now.
(edited by Guru Zim on 18.11.03 2131) Willful ignorance of science is not commendable. Refusing to learn the difference between a credible source and a shill is criminally stupid.
I know Ted Lilly is only a career .500 or so guy, but after Mulder got hurt this year Lilly was invaluable down the stretch. For Bobby Keilty? Egad.
It's the Hernandez trade that really pisses me off. This guy is a very underrated player, one of the top 5 or 6 catchers in the big leagues. Solid offensive numbers in the regular season, a reliable defensive catcher, and one of the few guys who didn't fold his tent when the regular season ended.
I hope this is the start of some sort of Billy Beane master plan, because neither one of these trades make me happy in the least. We got taken on both deals, plain and simple.
Originally posted by GrimisActually, who is going to catch for Oakland now?
They have Melhuse and Mark Johnson (who if you read Moneyball, Beane seems to have this homoerotic thing going for him). Johnson I think needs just a chance to play regularly and he will be a pretty good player. I, too, do not understand trading Hernandez but as someone already stressed on this board, in Moneyball Beane comes out and states that he feels catchers are not very important. They also have that kid in the minors Jeremy Brown who mauled the ball. Since he is a college player, he will prolly be ready next year or in 2005. Also, doesn't Long make ridiculous money (something like 4.5 a year). Kotsay will be a nice player that they can stick into their lineup and he is pretty good in the field also. I think his salary is a little high but I would rather pay him an extra 1 million than have Long.
Trading Ted Lilly for Kielty is a stupid move. Kielty will be a good player once he gets 500 ABs (I mean he was an MVP in the Cape League for crying out loud), but he isn't worth, at least to me, a budding #3 starter who the Jays can bank probably 15 wins with. Lilly was great for them down the stretch and into the playoffs against the Red Sox. I know the As have all sorts of pitching, but they should have got Kevin Cash, Phelps or Jayson Werth (all of whom could have provided power for a team starving for it) for this guy. The student (Riccardi) may have surpassed the teacher (Beane).
Look at the Jays' rotation now: Cy Young winner Roy Halladay Cy Young winner Pat Hentgen Josh Towers Ted Lilly And the fifth man will be either Kelvim Escobar, Mark Hendrickson or Pete Walker (barring another deal)
Originally posted by wordlifein Moneyball Beane comes out and states that he feels catchers are not very important.
Far be it for me to question the man that put a winning team in my favourite small market, but regardless of what you think of catchers how do you trade one who had more than 20 HRs and 80-some RBIs away from a team that was desperately lacking for power without getting some pop in return?
Maybe he wasn't happy with how he handled the staff?
For me, at least (and why I disagree with Beane on this count), the catchers' primary role is make sure that the pitchers pitch the best they can on any given day. They churn every last ounce of goodness out of the pitcher when he takes the mound. Anything they do at the plate is just awesome at that point. If these catchers that Oakland has in the system can call a good game (and wield a decent stick), then that's great.
To me, this is why Pudge is so valuable. Sure, he can hit - but his real value lies in his ability to get the most out of pitchers. That's why the Marlins did as well as they did (and why they won't repeat if he doesn't sign).
Quite frankly, Toronto would be best suited to let Escobar go. I have a feeling he's a "contract year" sort of pitcher, i.e. he'll return to his usual crappy self once he gets his big-money deal. If he's going to suck, I'd rather it be in St. Louis or Seattle or anywhere besides Toronto.
What the Jays should spend their money towards instead are relievers. Signing the best 2-3 free agent relievers available would cost the same as signing Escobar, that would give the Jays more bang for their buck. That leaves Halladay/Hentgen/Lilly/Towers/Walker as the starting staff, with Hendrickson as another potential fifth man or long reliever. That's a better staff than Boston, at least.
(edited by Big Bad on 20.11.03 0011) Let's put this in the plainest terms possible: Darryl Strawberry has no business instructing anybody about anything. He has never done a thing in his life to warrant a position of guidance. Not on the field. Not off the field.-- David Vescey, si.com
Cy Young winner Pat Hentgen indeed. Lefty Grove was a pretty good pitcher, but that doesn't mean I'd go out right now and try to sign him.
And let's not get too hasty Mr. Big Bad. Pedro/Lowe/Kim/Wakefield/Somebody is a pretty decent rotation, and definitely better than Toronto. And the question marks surrounding Pedro's health and Lowe's return to form are matched by the question marks surrounding everyone but Halladay on the Toronto staff. Towers has looked very promising in the past, and will likely develop into a good pitcher, but I wouldn't bet the house on a great year by Hentgen, Lily, Walker, Hendrickson or anyone else there. Not to mention Toronto has no bullpen to speak of.
I'm a Jays fan and hate to be a wet blanket but 1996 was a long time ago and his last three seasons, starting from '03 he had a records of 7-8, 0-4 and 2-3 and has been injury plagued throughout... Sure he was playing for the brutal O's but I wouldn't bet the house (actually wouldn't bet too much at all) on him being a solid #2 guy.
I like Lilly, lefties are always good to add to the mix. Towers has potential to be solid who's also a real young arm.
Originally posted by Freeway420Look at the Jays' rotation now: Cy Young winner Roy Halladay Cy Young winner Pat Hentgen Josh Towers Ted Lilly And the fifth man will be either Kelvim Escobar, Mark Hendrickson or Pete Walker (barring another deal)
To toss out the fact that Pat Hentgen is a Cy Young winner is completely meaningless. He won it in 1996. 8 years ago. If Tom Seaver came back tomorrow and signed a contract with the Mets, I wouldn't be singing his praises as a bonefide number 2 starter by saying "Hall of Famer, Cy Young winner, best player to ever wear a Mets uniform Tom Seaver". Towers hasn't proven that he can pitch at an exceptional level for an entire season. Lilly held down the fort for the A's last year, but he is not a stud by any stretch of the imagination. Escobar is gone. Hendrickson and Walker are there to give Halladay more rest in between starts. Halladay is the only real pitcher the Jays have.
And Big Bad is so sure that this rotation of one superstar, one average pitcher, and a bunch of below average pitchers is better than the Boston rotation? Let's line it up. Pedro/Halladay. I'd take Halladay because he's younger, but it's a toss up. Hentgen/Lowe. Lowe without even thinking about it. Hentgen is 8 years removed from doing anything meaningful on the mound. Lowe is one season removed from being absolutely dominant. Wakefield/Lilly. Wakefield. His strikeout numbers prove his worth year in and year out. Plus he's infinitely more versatile than Lilly. Wakefield can pitch on two days rest, come in for relief work, close out a game, or pitch 8 strong innings in a start. Kim/Towers,Walker, whoever. I'd take Kim. As long as it's not the post-season, the kid just strikes people out. He had some rough outings in Boston following the trade, but I think he'll get used to playing in a different league and a different city. If that happens, he's a very solid number 4 or 5 starter.
"What you don't understand, you can make mean anything." -Palahniuk
This is not exactly the catcher I was hoping for, but it's probably better than it could have been. I was hoping for Pudge, expecting Kendall.
Is Long going to be better than Gary Matthews Jr. off of the bench?
I really hope they pick up some pitching now.
(edited by Guru Zim on 18.11.03 2131)
According the the San Diego UT this morning, the A's are still balking because of Kotsay's back. The Padres have given Oakland until tomorrow to say yes or no.
Hernandez isn't the guy I was looking for either. I was really hoping for Kendall, but the Pirates must be asking for someone we won't give up, or they won't cover enough of Kendall's salary.
Attempted murder... really. Do they give a Nobel Prize for Attempted Chemistry?
Originally posted by Freeway420Look at the Jays' rotation now: Cy Young winner Roy Halladay Cy Young winner Pat Hentgen Josh Towers Ted Lilly And the fifth man will be either Kelvim Escobar, Mark Hendrickson or Pete Walker (barring another deal)
To toss out the fact that Pat Hentgen is a Cy Young winner is completely meaningless. He won it in 1996. 8 years ago. If Tom Seaver came back tomorrow and signed a contract with the Mets, I wouldn't be singing his praises as a bonefide number 2 starter by saying "Hall of Famer, Cy Young winner, best player to ever wear a Mets uniform Tom Seaver". Towers hasn't proven that he can pitch at an exceptional level for an entire season. Lilly held down the fort for the A's last year, but he is not a stud by any stretch of the imagination. Escobar is gone. Hendrickson and Walker are there to give Halladay more rest in between starts. Halladay is the only real pitcher the Jays have.
And Big Bad is so sure that this rotation of one superstar, one average pitcher, and a bunch of below average pitchers is better than the Boston rotation? Let's line it up. Pedro/Halladay. I'd take Halladay because he's younger, but it's a toss up. Hentgen/Lowe. Lowe without even thinking about it. Hentgen is 8 years removed from doing anything meaningful on the mound. Lowe is one season removed from being absolutely dominant. Wakefield/Lilly. Wakefield. His strikeout numbers prove his worth year in and year out. Plus he's infinitely more versatile than Lilly. Wakefield can pitch on two days rest, come in for relief work, close out a game, or pitch 8 strong innings in a start. Kim/Towers,Walker, whoever. I'd take Kim. As long as it's not the post-season, the kid just strikes people out. He had some rough outings in Boston following the trade, but I think he'll get used to playing in a different league and a different city. If that happens, he's a very solid number 4 or 5 starter.
Point taken. The Jays used to be a great team with great batters and great pitching. Now they're a pretty good team with good batters and iffy pitching. Big difference.
FLAMES: 9-8-0-2; 20pts SURVIVOR: PEARL ISLANDS: 7 Remain [Tijuana, Darrah, Jon, Christa, Sandra, Burton & Lillian] TOP 10 FILMS OF 2003 [So Far]: Mystic River, Lost In Translation, Finding Nemo, Seabiscuit, Kill Bill V1, X2: X-Men United, Open Range, Pirates of the Caribbean, Matchstick Men & Dirty Pretty Things
This thing is neat, in concept, but still very flawed. It doesn't seem to know past players (like the legendary Mike Greenwell), and when I ask about Mo Vaughn, it tells me about Mariano Rivera.
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