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The 7 - Movies & TV - Doctor Who Dark Waters and Death in Heaven spoilers.
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lotjx
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#1 Posted on 9.11.14 1209.58
Reposted on: 9.11.21 1212.06
Danny Pink is dead. That happens in the first five minutes of Dark Waters. The rest of the episode is him in heaven while Clara goes batshit. So, batshit, the Doctor has to drug her before she does something stupid. Eventually, they go to 3W, a company that specializes in the afterlife. We see they are able to contact the dead after some white noise stated not to cremate people. In heaven, Danny meets the kid he killed in the Middle Eastern Wars. This brings him to a decision to end his new afterlife. In the land of the living, 3 Ws is actually a Cyberman base created by Missy.

Missy...ok...stop and think about it, because some of this makes sense and some of it doesn't. Missy is the Master. Who regenerated after the events of Day of the Doctor not End of Time. He switched genders to further fuck with the Doctor. She releases the Cybermen from St. Paul Cathedral, nice nod. Oswin is left alone with a Cyberman and that is the end of Dark Water.

Now we go into the finale where people are taking selfies with the Cybermen. Missy laughs about it til we find out they are UNIT with Brig's Daughter who have weapons to stop the Cybermen. I guess, we never see them fire anything at them. We do see the Cyberman rocket off and destroy themselves to create rain clouds. The clouds are filled with Cyber-Tech to make the dead into Cybermen. Thus allowing Danny to become one. He saves Clara and puts her in a graveyard for some reason. The Doctor is told, he is the President of Earth in these emergencies. Missy is brought with them, but she gets out and kills Osdin, the girl from the Day of the Doctor that everyone should love. At this point, I am emotionally out of this thing.

Speaking of emotions, Danny reveales he is a Cyberman to Clara. The Doctor and the Tardis appear after escaping a Cyberman attack that kills the Brig's Daughter. The Doctor needs to know what Missy has planned, but to do that they have to turn Danny into a full Cyberman. Clara does it after The Doctor has a bit of a breakdown. Missy pops down like Mary Poppins and gives the Doctor the ability to control the Cybermen. The Doctor can stop any bad guy and save the day, but to do so, he must use the dead as well as murder everyone in his way. The Doctor has a bit of a realization and gives the controller to Danny. Danny decides to have the Cybermen sacrifice themselves to destroy the cloud.

When this is done, Clara takes Missy's weapon and wants to kill her. The Doctor won't let her, because he is going to do it. Missy tells him he knows where Gallifery is. It stops him for a bit, but it appears that a random Cyberman kills the Master. It also saved the Brig's Daughter. The Doctor realizes it was actually the Brig himself and salutes him. Cyber-Brig blasts off.

Two weeks later, Clara gets a visit from Danny. The controller can do a one way trip to anyone in Heaven. He pops the boy he killed in Clara's apartment. Later we get Clara and the Doctor having a chat where they both lie to each other. Clara says her and Danny her fine. The Doctor says he found Gallifery. Neither is true. The Doctor leaves her. Now this would be the end if not for a knock on the Tardis door where a voice says neither Clara or the Doctor are fine. In pops Nick Frost as Santa Clause. Yep, Santa.

Let me start with my utter hatred with the death of Osdin. Sure, she was a minor character, but she made Day of the Doctor at times. Now, it could be her Zegon clone or whatever, it sucked. I am kinda ok with Missy being the Master even the gender swap, because Time Lords can do that. What was not really answered was how he stopped from disappearing like in the End of Time. His Cyber-Zombie plan is more evil if he think he designed it to the Doctor's friends and companions like say the Ponds who are buried in New York. Yet, it sorta reeks of desperation of jumping into the Zombie craze. Missy is alive, because it looked like she teleported out then disingerated by the Brig.

I like Doctor Who when its fun. I don't like Doctor Who when it is a depressing mess. And this is what it is. Danny is gone. Clara is in total denial. Calipaldi's Doctor most of the times is charmless. Danny's grandson is now a massive continuity error. Some of the episodes were fairly good and some were not. Calipaldi didn't have the Pandorica speech or I am the Doctor or even the Who am I speech? Instead he seem to float around like an angry old man. He needed a great moment this season and he never really got it. Hopefully, the show will rebound a bit with a new companion, because it needs to be a little more fun than this.

(edited by lotjx on 9.11.14 1213)
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Amos Cochran
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#2 Posted on 10.11.14 0457.07
Reposted on: 10.11.21 0459.01
This was the best season of the show since Matt Smith's first. This is engaging, character-driven, big-idea sci-fi. And Capaldi has been immense. Witty, sly, angry, wounded, clever, and always likeable. It's nutty that a series which saw the Doctor fight a mummy on the Orient Express in space, lead an intergalactic bank heist, and swordfight Robin Hood with a spoon, and ended with him meeting Santa, is being decried as "not fun".
Matt Tracker
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#3 Posted on 10.11.14 0627.31
Reposted on: 10.11.21 0627.34
I loved the Thunderbird's reference. And the return of the assistant from the 50th anniversary special.

(edited by Matt Tracker on 10.11.14 0428)
Tenken347
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#4 Posted on 10.11.14 1444.26
Reposted on: 10.11.21 1445.29
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    This was the best season of the show since Matt Smith's first. This is engaging, character-driven, big-idea sci-fi. And Capaldi has been immense. Witty, sly, angry, wounded, clever, and always likeable. It's nutty that a series which saw the Doctor fight a mummy on the Orient Express in space, lead an intergalactic bank heist, and swordfight Robin Hood with a spoon, and ended with him meeting Santa, is being decried as "not fun".


My problem is that while those are fun concepts, I haven't been having any fun with the execution. The whole season's just felt like a giant dogpile on Clara, right down to the beginning of the two-parter where she spontaneously becomes a villain. But it's okay, because the Doctor's so rad that he just lets that go. I'm not the first person to point out that Doctor Who and Sherlock both seem to take some issues with women characters, and the more successful Moffat's stuff is, the more of those issues seem to be on display. At this point, I'm expecting Capaldi to spend a half hour of an episode talking directly to Steven Moffat's wife(or, possibly, ex-wife). None of that is any fun for me.

My biggest gripe, by far, is the fact that the character is still clearly being written for Matt Smith. Capaldi's doing his damnedest to put his own stamp on it, but the tone of the show is just wrong for him. When Smith left, they should have picked a new showrunner to give Capaldi a fresh take.
Amos Cochran
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#5 Posted on 11.11.14 0337.35
Reposted on: 11.11.21 0338.02
You cite the one example of Clara being a dick to the Doctor as proof of Moffat having issues with women, ignoring the entire rest of the series that saw Clara stand up for herself in the face of the Doctor most often being a patronising cold-fish asshole. Clara's been presented as being definitively in the right over the Doctor almost all season. If anything this has been Clara's season more than his.

And holy Hell this Doctor is in no way being written like Eleven. They're complete opposites. Eleven would never dismiss humans as pudding brains on sight, would never abandon Clara multiple times like he has, would never be so awful and dismissive to Danny Pink, would never be so cavalier about people losing their lives as he has all season long, wouldn't have a problem with hugging and wouldn't be so arrogant as to spend a whole episode chasing a non-existent alien simply because he felt he couldn't possibly have been afraid of the dark. They are the epitome of chalk and cheese.

(edited by Amos Cochran on 11.11.14 0343)
lotjx
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#6 Posted on 11.11.14 0733.13
Reposted on: 11.11.21 0733.40
I think Kill the Moon was one of the worst episodes in awhile. In that episode, you can make a case that was beginning of the Clara slide. She dumps the Doctor at the end of the episode then in Mummy just takes him back for very little reasoning. She is also lying to Danny from that point on to. I love Clara at the beginning of the season, she was great then they lost her voice and found one of a two faced shrew.

I will agree its not being written for the 11th, but I don't know if its being written for the Doctor. Like I said, rebooting the Doctor to not giving a shit about humanity is stupid. It was done to give Clara something to do. This season was like season 6th without the Doctor's Wife. There was no stand out episode and the payoff for this season was not really a payoff. It was just getting the Master back which I am cool with it, but they really didn't explain how. So, when people saying its mature is eye rolling. To be mature, you can't have giant plot holes.

Yes, it was dark and somewhat thoughtful. I am cool with some of that, but Doctor Who is great when it feels magical not like every drama on TV where its dark for the sake of being dark. Teken is correct, the execution has been awful.

(edited by lotjx on 11.11.14 0734)
Amos Cochran
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#7 Posted on 11.11.14 0759.41
Reposted on: 11.11.21 0802.25
It's not that he doesn't give a shit about humanity - he bloody loves the Earth and its inhabitants - he just isn't the cuddly touchy feely manchild that Smith was. He's crotchety, cynical about humanity but still there. He's the Dr. Perry Cox of regenerations. He will bitch and moan and be awfully dismissive when someone dies, but underneath that he's feeling every loss as though it were his own. There's plenty of this around the edges this series - he has multiple conversations with Clara about what it means to be him, and how it impacts him.

The finale paid off all of the character stuff that had been set up over the course of the season. The Doctor's doubts about his own innate goodness, Clara's doubts about traveling with him, Danny's view of the Doctor as an "officer" and the Doctor's feelings about him and soldiers in general, the price you have to pay to be the one to make the "hard choice"...you watch these shows - I've noticed this when you talk about Game Of Thrones too - purely in terms of plot, as though there has to be some big MacGuffin that clicks into place to make it all worthwhile. You're tone-deaf on character. That the Master coming back to life - which is literally his thing, by the way, dating all the way back to his second appearance in the original series - is what causes you to write off this finale is so telling. This return was actually way less hand-wavy than any of his previous ones - he/she was trapped with the time-locked Gallifrey when it got sent to the pocket dimension, and he/she found a way out but refuses to tell the Doctor in order to hurt him. It's not a plot hole, it's yet another character beat for Missy and the Doctor, and it sets up the heartbreaking scene at the end when he goes to find Gallifrey and it isn't there.

I'm honestly kind of stunned by the reaction here. SUre, watch Doctor Who for some throw-away fun. This season had that, in episodes like Time Heist, Robot Of Sherwood, Mummy On The Orient Express and The Caretaker. But it also has scares - Flatline and the Cybermen here - and pathos and emotion and great dramatic pay-offs.
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#8 Posted on 11.11.14 0806.15
Reposted on: 11.11.21 0807.04
It's kind of amazing these days that if someone makes a show with a female character making questionable decisions (like everyone else in the cast) that they have "issues with women".

The entire season seemed to me to be a showcase in how the Doctor and Clara were basically both equally broken by their adventures.

I do hope we get more Missy in the future. When she was finally let of the leash and able to go full Master it was great.
lotjx
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#9 Posted on 11.11.14 0846.16
Reposted on: 11.11.21 0846.37
The Master was also dissolving before our eyes when he was locked into the Time Vortex. None of that was explained. I don't mind Clara making hard choices. That is fine. My problem is she changed her mind on flip of a dime near the end on who she wanted to be with. She was constant lying to Danny and the Doctor through out the season and even at the end, she lied to the Doctor. You can make questionable choices, just don't expect fans to stay with her through that.

The payoff was weak. The Doctor shoves off the question if he is a good man and hands the responsibility to an already dead Danny. Danny does the noble thing, but he doesn't have to give a speech, because he can just push the button anyway to send the Cyber Army to stop the magic rain cloud. Ultimately, the Doctor washes his hands off it and gives it to Danny who is going to do what he was going to do anyway. Clara still has massive doubts about traveling with the Doctor even though she technically has traveled him his entire life. She lies to him at the end thus pushing off any real resolution. Danny gets the Doctor's respect and he probably had it prior to the episode.

Forgive me if I want things tied together. I think if you do this season long story arcs, they have to be planned out. Its not that much asking for as a fan. Yes, you can stumble here and there, but ultimately that have to connect. Just because the episode titles sounded like fun doesn't mean the episodes were. Kill the Moon was an abortion episode. How much fun was that?
Amos Cochran
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#10 Posted on 11.11.14 0915.00
Reposted on: 11.11.21 0919.45
Oy vey. She doesn't change her mind on the flip of a dime *at all*. She wants to travel with the Doctor AND be with Danny, but as she knows how each feels about the other she lies to both to avoid hurting them. If this kind of thing is enough for you to totally check out of relating to a character, you should probably steer clear of TV altogether.

The Doctor doesn't "shove off" the question at all. He holds in his hands the power to turn all of his utopian ideals into reality, and he rejects it by handing it to a better man than him. He's answering the question right there - he's not a good OR a bad man, he's got faults just like anyone else. He's rejecting moral absolutism, finally confronting the faults that have upset Clara throughout the season. And how exactly was Danny going to command the Cybermen to detonate without anyway without the bracelet? As for the no resolution on Clara and the Doctor" - the show literally ended on a character saying "it can't end like this", setting up Jenna Coleman's farewell and the full payoff of their relationship for the Christmas episode. All the other thematic stuff set up over the season between the two characters was paid off - the only thing left hanging is their ultimate reactions to the events of this specific episode.

And Kill The Moon - one of, if not the weakest episode of the season - is an "abortion episode" only on the shallowest of readings. It's the ultimate "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" conundrum.
lotjx
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#11 Posted on 11.11.14 1333.33
Reposted on: 11.11.21 1339.18
You said the finale was a payoff, now you are saying nope its the Christmas episode. There is no shadow of reading Kill the Moon, you have a girl and two women discussing whether its ok to kill an unborn being as the girl put it a baby. Its not Star Trek III, where its the needs of the one or the few out weigh the needs of the many. Its Moffat trying to be clever on a topic that is always destined to fail. Clara balling him out for letting the humans decide was hypocritical when she ignores humanity anyway. That was the beginning of the end of Clara.

The Doctor could have pushed the button the bracelet, he didn't need Danny to do it himself. It was rather bush league. Plus, they already knew the magic cloud was going to create the Walking Cyber Dead anyway, why they needed for Danny to be a full Cyberman made no sense. They could have easily denoted missiles and done the exact same thing. The Doctor was in control of the defense of the entire planet.

Clara has been brilliant under Moffat. Yet, for some reason, trying to make her the Doctor has lead to this slide. Its almost as if she is addicted to the traveling. She wants to go again not two weeks after Danny dies. Its probably better they are shoving her off the show.
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#12 Posted on 12.11.14 0331.40
Reposted on: 12.11.21 0331.46
The pay-off for the season was the episode. The pay-off for those final scenes of Clara and the Doctor lying to each other comes at Christmas.

All the other stuff is nonsense (the Doctor's going to call for a missile strike from a graveyard without his TARDIS or anything else to hand, when we know the Cybermen are resistant to Earth weaponry? Kill The Moon - where two people must decide whether to kill an innocent creature in order to prevent the destruction of a whole planet - is just an abortion episode? And how the fuck does Clara ignore humanity?). You're being wilfully obtuse, but then that's par for the course.

Wait, one more thing - how does Clara want to go again not two weeks after Danny dies? She meets the Doctor to tell him Danny's not coming back, not to go gallivanting around the universe again. Both of them are there to end their relationship.
lotjx
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#13 Posted on 12.11.14 0711.55
Reposted on: 12.11.21 0712.27
Kate says they upgraded their weapons to fight the Cybermen when she throws the old school cyber head down. Why they don't shot them there, I have no idea or even as they are flying who knows. The Doctor can use the phone on the Tardis to call anyone anywhere, this has been established. He could easily just walk away from all of this pop on the phone and order the strike.

The only payoff for this episode was Missy being the Master and killing Danny. So, it wasn't much of a payoff at all. The big central point of the season has been Clara and the Doctor's relationship. There was zero payoff there as they continue to lie to one another. Clara wants to go back to adventuring with the Doctor. She is shocked that he wants her to stay. She could tell him, Danny is gone, but its the idea that the Doctor wants her to stay leads to her lying. He also lies about Gallifrey, so it will be easier on her.

It has been pretty well established that Kill the Moon is a not so subtle abortion episode. The being has not hatched and it is constantly refereed to as a baby. Its a discussion of whether killing a baby is a moral decision if the child causes harm. There was a ton of ways you can do the need of the one or the few outweigh the needs of the many, but Moffat wants to be clever and he failed, big time.

To go back to Teken's point. The execution of this season has been bad. There was good ideas, but it felt that something was holding back a number of the episodes. Some episodes like the Dalek one and the one with Danny's Grandson were pretty good. Yet, a few of them never went a step beyond like the past ones did. There was also no great OMG episode like the Doctor's Wife or In the Name of the Doctor or Blink. It was mostly standard fare.

I also think this show will fall in some degree to old school fans vs. new school fans. Old school fans wanted the grumpy old Doctor back and well they got him with the dark approach. While they got it and its been kind of a mess.


(edited by lotjx on 12.11.14 0712)

(edited by lotjx on 12.11.14 0713)
Amos Cochran
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#14 Posted on 12.11.14 0723.37
Reposted on: 12.11.21 0723.58
You actually *have a scene* of the Doctor outright reaching an epiphany about the question which has bugged him all season, and yet "there's no payoff". Moffat wanted to weigh the existence of the world against one innocent life, but no, it's all about abortion. Kate uses an old damaged Cyberman head as a bluff and promptly retreats to figure out how to defeat them, but no, obviously UNIT can just blow the Cybermen up whenever they want.

Oof, I'm done. Learn to process fictional entertainment properly.
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