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The 7 - Movies & TV - Game of Thrones 4x4 "Oathkeeper"
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oudom
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#1 Posted on 27.4.14 2223.10
Reposted on: 27.4.21 2224.01
Grey Worm and friends sneak into Mereen to convince the slaves to rebel against their masters. They argue that they were not trained from day one to fight like an Unsullied is. Grey Worm brought some weapons and they overtook the city off-camera. Daenerys decides to punish the masters like how the little girls were used as mile markers... nailed up on poles. Ser Barristan tried to get Danny to show them mercy but she said she will answer injustice with justice. Camera zooms out to show a Targaryen flag over the statue that's on top of the building.

Sansa is still on Littlefinger's boat heading towards Sansa's aunt Lysa where she will be safe. He revealed that he was the perpetrator of Joffrey's assassination because he had no motives to want Joffrey dead and they would never suspect him. He is tired of his alliance with the Lannister's and moved on to another House. I kinda wish he said he did it to avenge Caitlyn's death. Littlefinger also revealed that Sansa was involved because the necklace Dontos had the poison. So who was his mystery accomplice at the Wedding?

Lady Olenna is talking to Margaery about how her husband was supposed to marry her sister but she "accidentally" made it to his chambers and changed his mind. She sorta confirms that she killed off Joffrey because there's no way she'll let him marry Margaery and how Margaery needs to hook up with Tommen to ensure she becomes queen.

Jon Snow is trying to teach the Night's Watch guys how to fight Wildlings but is put in his place by the acting Lord Commander Alliser Thorne. Sent to do chores instead. Now they are changing their minds and considering sending Jon Snow out to fight the Mutineers in such that they might just kill him before there is a vote at Castle Black to make Jon Snow the new leader. Roose Bolton's guy (Locke?) is at Castle Black... the guy that cut off Jaime Lannister's hand. That can't be good. Sam finally realizes that the Wildlings are attacking nearby villages and his great idea to move Gilly outside of Castle Black was a dumb idea. Jon Snow stops him from leaving as they were on orders not to leave Castle Black. Thorne agrees to let Jon go after the mutineers but won't order anyone to go with him, they have to volunteer. Jon makes a speech about Lord Commander Mormont deserving to be avenged and gets a few people to volunteer including the guy from the Bolton's.

Bronn is still teaching Jaime Lannister how to fight with his left hand and in the end slapped him with his own prosthetic hand. ha ha Jaime needs to learn to fight dirty. Bron tells Jaime that Tyrion wanted Jaime to defend him at the Arryn's but Bron had to volunteer only because there was no time. Jaime goes to talk to Tyrion and is pretty convinced Tyrion didn't do it. Jaime goes to visit Cercei and Cercei wants 4 guards in front of Tommen's chambers. She wonders why Caitlyn let Jaime go and wants Jaime to drop everything to go find and kill Sansa.

And sure enough, Margaery was able to sneak into Tommen's chambers with only one guard outside of it. She is making her move and making sure Tommen keeps their meeting a secret from his Mom. Is there going to be internet outrage over statutory rape?

Jaime gives Brienne the sword his father gave him that was made from Ned Stark's sword. Also new armor. He wants her to go find and protect Sansa. He had one final gift for her, a new squire Podrick. This protects him from harm at King's Landing. Jaime says all good swords should have names, Brienne names her new sword "Oathkeeper."

Bran, Hodor, and gang appear to be near the village where the mutineers are. Karl (guy who was in The Dark Knight Rises) is drinking wine out of the skull of Lord Commander Mormont and beating up the girls there. Someone brings in the last incest baby, a boy. Karl was going to kill him because that's one more mouth to feed, but the girls all start chanting and they advise him to feed the baby to the white walkers. He sends one of his guys to put the baby in the forest as he already told him to go feed Jon Snow's direwolf Ghost. Bran transfer's his mind to his direwolf Summer to investigate the baby cries and Summer spots Ghost in a cage but unfortunately is captured in some trap. The gang investigates and thought they were the Night Watch but then they start beating up the girls again so yeah, lets get the hell out of here. Unfortunately they all got captured. Karl can tell Bran is a highborn due to his clothes. He thinks he can hold him for ransom but Jojen and his sister got to go... more mouths to feed. Bran stops him to tell him he is Brandon Stark from Winterfell as Jojen is having a seizure and is foaming from the mouth. They realize they have Jon Snow's little bro.

Show ends with a white walker carrying the baby on a zombie horse. He stops and places the baby on a ice post and another white walker comes out, picks up the baby, and pokes the baby in the face with his fingernail. The baby's eyes turn blue like a white walker.



(edited by oudom on 28.4.14 0335)
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Big Bad
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#2 Posted on 28.4.14 0159.27
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0202.08
Does anyone else think Daenerys is going to end up being the (pardon the username pun) Big Bad of the series before all is said and done? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Amos Cochran
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#3 Posted on 28.4.14 0330.16
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0331.46
I think we're headed that way, yeah. Maybe not the Big Bad, but she's not getting the throne.
lotjx
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#4 Posted on 28.4.14 0400.06
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0400.55
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Does anyone else think Daenerys is going to end up being the (pardon the username pun) Big Bad of the series before all is said and done? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


No, it should be the White Walkers, but they keep fucking around with them.
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#5 Posted on 28.4.14 0402.58
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0403.00
The White Walkers are an external threat, no character or motivation aside from destruction. They're scary as Hell and all, but for a show this rich, a faceless army of ice zombies should not be the big villain.
lotjx
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#6 Posted on 28.4.14 0427.18
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0427.22
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    The White Walkers are an external threat, no character or motivation aside from destruction. They're scary as Hell and all, but for a show this rich, a faceless army of ice zombies should not be the big villain.


But, they are. The entire game for the Iron Throne is utterly meaningless if they march over the Wall. When winter does come to the world, they will be able to move freely around it. The Lannister army is in no shape to stop them , Danny is an ocean away, The Greyjoys won't be able to cross the seas if its covered in ice and the Night's Watch is in total disarray. The big threat and evil should be the White Walkers, but the show is too busy trying to convince us that the politics matters, it doesn't.

Danny being the big bad is hella stupid since she is one of the few redeeming heroes on the show not named Stark. I think Ser Jerch is a bit of wimp when it comes to real justice. Jamie going from rapist to guy who hands out weapons to trannies he likes is equally stupid. This show needs to stop going for shock value and actually figuring out what its doing with these characters.

(edited by lotjx on 28.4.14 0427)
Amos Cochran
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#7 Posted on 28.4.14 0451.13
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0455.32
    Originally posted by lotjx
    Jamie going from rapist to guy who hands out weapons to trannies he likes is equally stupid
    (edited by lotjx on 28.4.14 0427)


Seriously? Jesus Christ, man.

I think they know exactly where they're going with all of them. I don't think they show the Night's King if they don't know what GRRM's endgame is.

And there are plenty of redeemable heroes left. The Starks, obviously. Danny too, yes. But also Tyrion. The Tullys. Osha. Davos. The Tyrells. Even people like Stannis and Tommen. It's the beauty of the show.
lotjx
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#8 Posted on 28.4.14 0812.27
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0814.20
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
      Originally posted by lotjx
      Jamie going from rapist to guy who hands out weapons to trannies he likes is equally stupid
      (edited by lotjx on 28.4.14 0427)


    Seriously? Jesus Christ, man.

    I think they know exactly where they're going with all of them. I don't think they show the Night's King if they don't know what GRRM's endgame is.

    And there are plenty of redeemable heroes left. The Starks, obviously. Danny too, yes. But also Tyrion. The Tullys. Osha. Davos. The Tyrells. Even people like Stannis and Tommen. It's the beauty of the show.


I keep forgetting you are that camp with Jamie from last week. I think you are going to find a few of those people are not going to be as redeemable as you think. No, I don't think they know what they are doing with the characters at times. Because, I don't think even Martin knows at this point. I think he is bullshitting everyone on the whole "I have a plan." If he had a plan, this series would be over by now. The show runners seem to be steering things in directions that sometimes make no sense even if you did or did not read the book.
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#9 Posted on 28.4.14 0848.04
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0848.16
I'm not "camp with Jamie". I'm with camp "calling a woman a tranny because she's masculine is immature bullshit".
lotjx
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#10 Posted on 28.4.14 0857.52
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0859.01
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    I'm not "camp with Jamie". I'm with camp "calling a woman a tranny because she's masculine is immature bullshit".


Call'em as I see'em. And really that is the big problem instead of Jamie going from heel to face as if nothing ever happened.
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#11 Posted on 28.4.14 0945.34
Reposted on: 28.4.21 0946.01
As much as I am uncomfortable with doing so, I think I'm going to pretend that last weeks Jamie-Cersei scene was *intended* to come across much differently than it actually did. I don't like it, but I think it's probably the only way to keep these characters consistent. Of course, then we had the room o' rapes at Castor's place, so....

I kind of like the idea of Daenerys being the new heavy. It makes sense, since she comes from a long line of crazy, and she really is slowly building the most power out of all the people vying for the throne.

    Originally posted by lotjx
    Call'em as I see'em.


You should stop doing that. You're not fairing nearly as well as you seem to think.

(edited by Leroy on 28.4.14 1053)
theremin
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#12 Posted on 28.4.14 1046.46
Reposted on: 28.4.21 1047.00
    Originally posted by Leroy
    As much as I am uncomfortable with doing so, I think I'm going to pretend that last weeks Jamie-Cersei scene was *intended* to come across much differently than it actually did.


I haven't read the books, and I know people say it's changed from the books, but I have this idea (that I liked) that it was rape in the books, but since it was from Jamie's point of view, and he didn't feel like it was, the text doesn't seem like it was.
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#13 Posted on 28.4.14 1108.18
Reposted on: 28.4.21 1110.11
    Originally posted by theremin
    I haven't read the books, and I know people say it's changed from the books, but I have this idea (that I liked) that it was rape in the books, but since it was from Jamie's point of view, and he didn't feel like it was, the text doesn't seem like it was.


I *really* hate doing the book-tv show comparisons, because they're two entirely different mediums and allowances must be made to accommodate one for the other. And as Madame Manga said last week, Martin is not exactly the most concise writer on the planet, so those 900+ pages tend to be full of a lot of stuff that the television show *tends* to keep to a minimum.

Having said that, it would be very hard to interpret book version of the Jamie-Cersei scene as anything but consensual. And I don't think Martin is sophisticated enough to play the kinds of games you're describing. He's just not that good. And he really doesn't do that anywhere else with any other characters...
Amos Cochran
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#14 Posted on 28.4.14 1111.19
Reposted on: 28.4.21 1112.03
I'm with Leroy. I think they *really* botched the execution last week and it was supposed to be a lot closer to the book. Which is an awful mistake to make.
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#15 Posted on 28.4.14 1116.15
Reposted on: 28.4.21 1117.05
Regardless of how it actually came across in the show, I am not labeling the Jamie/Cersei scene as rape. After reading the interviews about the scene with the author and director, and having read the books, I really believe it was meant to convey Jamie's desire, need, and longing for his sister (obviously in addition to his anger/hurt for her dismissing him , her making him feel guilty for not being there, and having just lost his son). I would have felt otherwise had I not read the books, or had I seen or known of a similar real-life situation, but just from the standpoint of Game of Thrones, that's my story and I am sticking to it.

All of these insane character flaws in the three Lannister siblings are obviously due to their upbringing with Tywin Lannister. IMO, Tywin is the second worst father on this show (behind Craster, and slightly above Randyll Tarly and Balon Greyjoy), and his kids totally reflect the shitty parenting style. Jamie seems to be really trying to do the right thing (once he gets over having his hand cut off) between rescuing Brienne, helping (and not killing) Tyrion, and trying to have Sansa protected as her mother would have wanted. I think he's doing a better job of trying to redeem himself than his sister, who is devolving worse than Theon's junk.

    Originally posted by lotjx
    Jamie going from rapist to guy who hands out weapons to trannies he likes is equally stupid.
Additionally, to cavalierly dismiss Brienne, an extremely likable character who comes across morally strong and personable in every scene she's in, as a "tranny" is a head-scratcher, especially after the opinion you seem to have of Jamie. I certainly hope you don't weigh in on Arya Stark as well.
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#16 Posted on 28.4.14 1146.42
Reposted on: 28.4.21 1148.44
    Originally posted by jfkfc
    Regardless of how it actually came across in the show, I am not labeling the Jamie/Cersei scene as rape. After reading the interviews about the scene with the author and director, and having read the books, I really believe it was meant to convey Jamie's desire, need, and longing for his sister (obviously in addition to his anger/hurt for her dismissing him , her making him feel guilty for not being there, and having just lost his son). I would have felt otherwise had I not read the books, or had I seen or known of a similar real-life situation, but just from the standpoint of Game of Thrones, that's my story and I am sticking to it.

    All of these insane character flaws in the three Lannister siblings are obviously due to their upbringing with Tywin Lannister. IMO, Tywin is the second worst father on this show (behind Craster, and slightly above Randyll Tarly and Balon Greyjoy), and his kids totally reflect the shitty parenting style. Jamie seems to be really trying to do the right thing (once he gets over having his hand cut off) between rescuing Brienne, helping (and not killing) Tyrion, and trying to have Sansa protected as her mother would have wanted. I think he's doing a better job of trying to redeem himself than his sister, who is devolving worse than Theon's junk.

      Originally posted by lotjx
      Jamie going from rapist to guy who hands out weapons to trannies he likes is equally stupid.
    Additionally, to cavalierly dismiss Brienne, an extremely likable character who comes across morally strong and personable in every scene she's in, as a "tranny" is a head-scratcher, especially after the opinion you seem to have of Jamie. I certainly hope you don't weigh in on Arya Stark as well.


It was rape regardless of what excuses people make. People put their heads in the sands, so they can keep liking the pretty boy. I like Arya, Brienne is a moron.
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#17 Posted on 28.4.14 1220.51
Reposted on: 28.4.21 1221.19
So. back to what matters.
I really missed Ross, who would've made all of the exposition a bit easier on the eyes
But yeah, they've pretty much told us who did it, we can move on.
The scene with Margery and Tommen was..interesting.
I thought she played it well, a fine line between kid like innocence and making sure Tommen hit puberty right there and then.
The stuff with Brann is a good move, as it gives his char a bit more something to do and some people to act around.
Though I have to say, I totally expected the crows to get killed by the white walkers before they ever reached the place.

I liked the Mereen stuff too..for now
And they seem to hint that Tyrion should ask Jaimie to be his champion. But that can't work out well.
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#18 Posted on 28.4.14 1543.27
Reposted on: 28.4.21 1543.27
    Originally posted by lotjx

    Jamie going from rapist to guy who hands out weapons to trannies he likes is equally stupid. This show needs to stop going for shock value and actually figuring out what its doing with these characters.



I know I'm mostly just a lurker here, but occasionally I read something that makes me bother to comment.

What (TV) Jamie did is definitely, by our present societal standards, rape. Whenever one of the people engaged in intercourse expresses a verbal desire to stop, it should be over. There is no second guessing what the intent behind the words "stop," or "no" actually is. They are to be taken at face value for the safety of all parties involved. I think most of us can agree on this, yes?

Now, if we turn our attention to the first book (no spoilers if you've seen the show), as many have alluded to in this thread:

----------------------------------
(From Bran's POV)

Jaime: "You should think less about the future and more about the pleasures at hand."

"Stop that!" The woman said. Bran heard the sudden slap of flesh on flesh, then the man's laughter.

...

Jaime: "All this talk is becoming tiresome sister," the man said. "Come here and be quiet."

...

The man had a hand down between her legs, he must have been hurting her there, because the woman started to moan, low in her throat. "Stop it," she said "stop it, stop it, oh please..."
----------------------------------

Granted, the show does not portray this scene the same way, as Bran only discovers them once they start having sex and all the dialogue has been removed. But we do get an insight into Jamie's forceful behavior with his sister from this clip here (from early season 1): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLwOeYDRpY0

My point in analyzing all this material is this: Jamie has been a bit forceful with his sister multiple times before, and she has always been at least slightly resistant (at least at face value) in both the show and the books. They both seem to like the fact that it is a struggle and it is forbidden, which complicates things when one of them actually means their pleas for the other to stop.

I'm not saying this makes Jamie any less morally condemnable for his actions in the show, but I can at least somewhat rationalize what the director was going for even though I think the execution of that scene was horribly off the mark.

(I also expect the portrayals of characters in TV shows to differ greatly from written material simply because inner monologue is not a tool this show employs. Also, time restraints.)

My point is that I don't think the actions Jaime undertook in the show were horribly out of character for him from a narrative standpoint. Jaime has been involved in what he considered to be a consensual relationship with his sister that at times before have at least nipped at the boundaries of rape fantasy. Despite his softening from outright villain to a more neutral character with bits of honor between the third and forth seasons, Jamie still has a weakness for his sister that manifests itself in vile ways.

Its an extremely odd criticism for the show to "figure out what it is doing" with Jaime when the whole point of that character is seemingly that he has been pulled in multiple directions throughout his entire life. His moments of indisputable evil are typically spawned out of love/lust for his sister, but his defining trait of being called "Kingslayer" was actually one of the most heroic deeds EVER committed in Westeros.

The bath scene, which sums up the complexity of Jamie better than I ever could:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTxjGUh5oOM

I don't think people are "making excuses" for Jaime. I think they are rightfully acknowledging that the character is pretty complex and there were a lot of factors at play during that scene, and it was pretty ambitious for the director to expect all of them to play out non-verbally for the viewers.

I guess in closing, I'd ask you to put just a WEEEE bit more effort in your analysis of the show instead of tastelessly dismissing one of the best characters of the series as a "tranny." (Which, apparently is synonymous with "moron" for you.)

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#19 Posted on 28.4.14 2304.41
Reposted on: 28.4.21 2305.10
I have this sickening feeling that a Bronn swerve is coming, with him ending up working for Tywin. His whole "training Jamie" thing could be at Tymin's behest, and the Shae thing seems weird too somehow. I can just see his shrug when he tells Tyrion something like "you shit gold - but your dad shits more" or something.
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#20 Posted on 29.4.14 0522.20
Reposted on: 29.4.21 0529.01
If it were Joffery instead of Jamie doing what he did to say Marg, would people feel differently about it. The answer is yes, it would be considered rape. This whole notion of Jamie is complex is bullshit. He is all smoke and mirrors, he is a shallow fuck with a nice smile and a charisma score of 18. That is it. He interacted with Brie to save his ass and is only doing what he is doing now, because he would make him look like a total ass.

Yeah, Bronn and Shea that will get interesting.

(edited by lotjx on 29.4.14 0522)
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