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2.12.15 0607
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Raw 11-16-15
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lotjx
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#1 Posted on 17.11.15 0734.07
Reposted on: 17.11.22 0734.36
Really, no one wants to talk about this episode. An episode seemingly dedicated to remind you why you watch in the first place. Even though, there was very little in the way of surprises of who advances, how we got there was great. If this company doesn't see value in Cesaro then no amount of nice Forbes write ups is going to save this company.

Paige's continues to shoot on the division to get over. Mileage my vary on this. Dead brothers was probably a line though.

The hinting of who is going heel at Survivor Sereis seems, so telegraphed that they almost have to have the winner takes out HHH on Raw, the next night. Heels don't draw in this company.
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BigDaddyLoco
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#2 Posted on 17.11.15 0744.22
Reposted on: 17.11.22 0752.31
So, this was mostly a really good Raw.

Owens-Neville did a lot in a short and somewhat rushed match where both guys come out looking strong and Owens, the jack of all trades, gets locked into a Twitter feud with Sabrina the Teenage Witch. Nice start.

Ambrose-Ziggler was also really good even though I care very little for crazy breakfast for dinner eating Ambrose and have never been a Ziggler guy, but hey wrestlers wrestling is almost always a win.

Cesaro-Reigns was great. It had to be incredibly tough for them to present this match with only one commercial break, but they managed to show some self control and everyone wins because of it. Reigns continues his string of really good big time matches and takes an ass beating second to none with just the right amount of offense while Cesaro continues to just be amazing. I loved this match.

Turn your tv off now.

Oh you are still here. Well, curiously bad WWE Alberto Del Rio threw up another stink bomb. Where is Alberto El Patron, the guy who showed all the charisma and fire when I saw him wrestle in high school gyms against Matt Taven or tagging against the Young Bucks this past year? I don't understand what is happening here.

The contract signing. They obviously agreed to do it, but someone should have stopped them. It came off terribly not to mention from out of nowhere. I don't know if this is HHH being too clever and insidery, if this was Vince or if it was just Charlotte's weird way of paying tribute to her brother who most people aren't even aware of, but it was Crash TV at it's worst and an awkward way to end a really solid show.

Matt Tracker
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#3 Posted on 17.11.15 0825.59
Reposted on: 17.11.22 0827.14
Little bit of context for the Flair thing. Greenville was the biggest town in the Mid-Atlantic Wrestling corridor between Atlanta and Charlotte. This is the arena where Flair returned to WCW in 1998 after the lawsuit hiatus with Bischoff. The crowd yelled for about five minutes when he hit the ring. I was there.

There's no reason anyone should remember that moment except it cemented that, outside of Charlotte, NC, this is the heart of Flair Country and has been for decades. So a healthy chunk of this crowd would know their Flair history and revere the connection. It might have been utter coincidence that the WWE went this direction in this town.

Tyler Breeze is hurting from the get-go because his gimmick is half Miz, half Fandango. The combination of such a large roster and such weak writing is that the characters blur. He needs something distinctive.

The time is so right to give Ziggler or Owens the Authority Champion angle, but Reigns has to win so all of this business after Rollins's injury isn't just to go back to where we were a few weeks ago.
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#4 Posted on 17.11.15 0834.49
Reposted on: 17.11.22 0836.34
Well if this puts fire in Charlotte I am all for it.
Her promo skills are not all that great but the added emotion last night worked for me.
Yeah it crossed a line maybe but wow their brawl was good. Charlotte hurled herself aat Paige.
Oh and yeah. A contract signing between women was the main event. The evolution of the revolution is going well.

Good Raw, tho i didnt like Owens vs Neville. The latter just going for the red arrow hurt the flow of the match.
Other than that no complaints.
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#5 Posted on 17.11.15 2012.18
Reposted on: 17.11.22 2014.07
I don't watch Raw much anymore but I watched a lot of it last night. Not all but a lot.

Some comments:
why are we fighting owens and Neville for the entry to the championship round? I suppose we can't have Bray in there because of course he has to be up against Taker and Kane, but I would much rather have had that brawl. Seemed very disjointed to me.

Ambrose and Nicky can fight every week as far as I am concerned. I had NO idea who was going over until it was over. So many cool combos and Near falls. Those guys are well matched and really know how to put on a show.

But Reigns and the Swiss Superman was fantastic. I thought for a minute they wre actually going to pur Cesaro over and was trying to decide if THIS was what was going to turn Reigns.

I noticed at the end of the terrible Del Rio/Tiny Luchadore match that the fore finalists were Del Rio, Owens, Ambrose and Roman. I wonder why only reigns is given his first name and all the others are last names.

I didn't watch the Divas contract signing. I have seen that act before.
andy1278
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#6 Posted on 18.11.15 0731.45
Reposted on: 18.11.22 0731.54
Not a bad show this week. The tournament matches were mostly interesting, though the WWE version of Del Rio continues to put me to sleep. I really enjoyed Cesaro vs Reigns and I can't figure out why they haven't strapped that rocket to Cesaro yet.

"Meh" on the contract signing. I'm all for women getting the main event spot, but no contract signing - male or female - is interesting as a show closer. Also, more Sasha Banks please. Or any Sasha Banks will do.

Tenken347
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#7 Posted on 18.11.15 0809.40
Reposted on: 18.11.22 0810.31
Maybe I was the only person who liked the contract signing? It finally felt like a big-deal segment for the women, where what was going on meant something, and the belt was being defended for its inherent value, and the personal issues between the women were adding to that instead of distracting from it. I was shocked that they dropped a Reid reference, but I thought it worked, and it didn't seem particularly cheap (for wrestling). Above all else, this was finally a chance for Charlotte to cut one of her Rick Steamboat promos, talking about honor and family and tradition in a way that made her actually seem invested in the feud, instead of sleepwalking through the fait acompli that was the run against Nikki Bella.
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#8 Posted on 18.11.15 0950.51
Reposted on: 18.11.22 0951.02
    Originally posted by andy1278
    Not a bad show this week. The tournament matches were mostly interesting, though the WWE version of Del Rio continues to put me to sleep. I really enjoyed Cesaro vs Reigns and I can't figure out why they haven't strapped that rocket to Cesaro yet.



Lack of a North American accent. See; Davey Boy Smith, Andre the Giant.
JustinShapiro
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#9 Posted on 18.11.15 1011.47
Reposted on: 18.11.22 1012.12
Of and by a toilet. hugzzz to ESPN and Connor Michalek though :D
BigDaddyLoco
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#10 Posted on 19.11.15 0852.20
Reposted on: 19.11.22 0852.23
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco

    The contract signing. They obviously agreed to do it, but someone should have stopped them. It came off terribly not to mention from out of nowhere. I don't know if this is HHH being too clever and insidery, if this was Vince or if it was just Charlotte's weird way of paying tribute to her brother who most people aren't even aware of, but it was Crash TV at it's worst and an awkward way to end a really solid show.




I'm surprised this hasn't garnered more attention here, maybe Raw really is dead, but the more that comes out about how this whole thing was handled the dirtier it looks. I've gone from this is awkward and unnecessary to feeling really bad for Flair and his family. The long term damage is going to out weigh any short term gain. We seem to have all come to terms with Vince not seeing that, but what about good guy ambassador Triple H? How is there no voice of reason in this place?

thecubsfan
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#11 Posted on 19.11.15 1051.04
Reposted on: 19.11.22 1055.25
The desperation to create a buzz - positive or negative - outweighed the hurt feelings and general bad taste. It's not going to do anything for the match on Sunday and I don't believe anyone's going to care anymore about the match, but they're running scared.
Dr Unlikely
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#12 Posted on 19.11.15 1120.04
Reposted on: 19.11.22 1122.00
Yeah, forget the offensiveness - we're just a few months away from the 10th anniversary of "EDDIE'S IN HELL!" - it failed because you can't spend months bombing on the whole Stephanie McMahon's Diva's Revolution angle at every turn and then panic and go with the nuclear option at the last second and expect that to save things.

They have, in very rare cases, pulled out of nose dives in the past: being forced to abandon ship on Batista/Orton right before WM30, finally getting out of the way and letting Austin and Rock sell WMX-7 at the last second. But in both cases (especially the latter, where they dumped the Debra stuff and finally just let Austin simply tell the story they were setting up for the X-7 finish), it was course correction of stripping out the excess and getting to the heart of the story and what people wanted. In this case, though, the problem was that they hadn't been telling any story at all since the NXT women came up, and so they went the other way and tried to build a blood feud in ten minutes.

Weirdest part about the whole thing was how they seem to have turned Paige into a second-generation WWE superstar now (Charlotte's strange line about both being the children of parents who loved WWE more than them), when there's perfectly good, possibly great, storyline that they could have been telling: Charlotte as the daughter of the most celebrated champion of all time and Paige as the daughter of an outsider. A strong, simmering story of resentment, as Paige is forced to go get Charlotte to help her oust one WWE-backed mainstay only to see Charlotte instantly eclipse her as the new WWE-bred mainstay.

Only, you know, they booked it so Stephanie brought Charlotte in to help get rid of Stephanie's own hand-picked champ. And then randomly assigned them to teams. And then forgot to book angles or characters for them until the overrun of the show before a major PPV.

However! The good sign for progress is that the show was bookended with equally bad story-telling for men and women alike. UT/Kane vs. the Wyatts had things I should have loved (UT cutting a goofy-ass promo about literally sending people to literal hell, the DRUIDS MY BELOVED DRUIDS WHO I LOVE SO DAMN MUCH turning differently evil), but none of it matters. Kane and Undertaker beat up all four Wyatts already. Who cares if they are tasked with treating half of them like so much Kronik now?

(Ways they could have redeemed that opening segment: the druids turn out to be three Wyatt cult kids apiece sitting on each others shoulders and UT and Kane get beaten up by 18 five year olds they can't fight back against; DDP is revealed as the power behind Bray Wyatt getting final revenge against UT).

Other belated show thoughts:
-We should have gotten Korporate Kalisto

-Del Rio's return is truly a disaster thus far

-Cesaro/Reigns was fantastic. That top rope cartwheel Cesaro did was literally jaw-dropping in the moment. Loved the spot of Cesaro expecting and countering the drive-by setting up Reigns having to hit it at warp speed later. They continue to do everything with Reigns that they forgot to do last year (current checklist: make him wrestle your elite roster of mega-talented guys who can teach him how to work singles matches as well as he already worked multi-man matches), but still need to not blow it as they reach the finish line.

-With Rollins out, Kevin Owens should be the top guy in the company. Seeing him with Neville really made it clear for me. He can work with anyone. He can cut promos. He understands his character 100% and could sell it easily on talk shows. He can do twitter feuds with potential Raw Guest GMs. There's zero reason he shouldn't be The Guy right now, and Cena getting that win back over him twice over (and then not putting over anyone new for the US title anyway) continues to be one of the worst booking decisions of the year.
lotjx
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#13 Posted on 19.11.15 1121.31
Reposted on: 19.11.22 1122.44
Yeah, now hearing Flair didn't know and that Charlotte didn't give the ok, its pretty head shaking. I know they will come back with Charlotte saying she did ok it and HHH saying its all part of the circus. I am not sure what fucked up circus brings up dead family members to make you care about the elephants, certainly not the one I took my daughter to this year.
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#14 Posted on 19.11.15 1200.09
Reposted on: 19.11.22 1203.15
    Originally posted by lotjx
    Yeah, now hearing Flair didn't know and that Charlotte didn't give the ok, its pretty head shaking.
Even if true (we have no way of knowing for sure), does it matter? Ric's not in Creative last I checked.

I understand Meltzer was really butthurt about this* but THIS IS PRO WRESTLING WWE PRO WRESTLING.

*which I suppose should lend credence to Ric NOT knowing but again, does it matter?
DirtyMikeSeaver
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#15 Posted on 19.11.15 1211.58
Reposted on: 19.11.22 1214.11
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by lotjx
      Yeah, now hearing Flair didn't know and that Charlotte didn't give the ok, its pretty head shaking.
    Even if true (we have no way of knowing for sure), does it matter? Ric's not in Creative last I checked.

    I understand Meltzer was really butthurt about this* but THIS IS PRO WRESTLING WWE PRO WRESTLING.

    *which I suppose should lend credence to Ric NOT knowing but again, does it matter?


Flair didn't know:

http://thebiglead.com/2015/11/18/ric-flair-says-he-wasnt-notified-about-promo-mocking-sons-death-and-he-sounds-devastated/

Shouldn't we as viewers though demand better? I'm not into telling people how to enjoy the product. If you watched it and liked it, then huzzah. But I think that doing stuff like that just makes it pander to the lowest common denominator. It just feels like the writers just said "We have nothing. We give up."
lotjx
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#16 Posted on 19.11.15 1841.18
Reposted on: 19.11.22 1841.18
I guess the line is now, Charlotte gave the ok. If the parents of a dead child were not told ahead of time since a simple text could have done that from Charlotte or HHH then its pretty gross. I can't imagine losing my kid. I also can't imagine a former employer using my kid's death to help sell their product.
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#17 Posted on 19.11.15 1953.16
Reposted on: 19.11.22 1953.58
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    I'm surprised this hasn't garnered more attention here, maybe Raw really is dead, but the more that comes out about how this whole thing was handled the dirtier it looks.


I think people have just become accustomed to both contemporary cluelessness and historical callousness. OTOH something like this popping up during the PG/PC/social media-infatuated/Michelle Beadle rug-sweeping/"philanthropy is the way brands r going 2 win" era makes it stand out more in a way.

    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    In this case, though, the problem was that they hadn't been telling any story at all since the NXT women came up


Hold on. "If you control the title, you control the Diva's Revolution!" is something that was said by one of the morons announcing. So now you understand.
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#18 Posted on 20.11.15 0726.05
Reposted on: 20.11.22 0726.58
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
      In this case, though, the problem was that they hadn't been telling any story at all since the NXT women came up


    Hold on. "If you control the title, you control the Diva's Revolution!" is something that was said by one of the morons announcing. So now you understand.


My actual favorite thing about their disastrous handling of the women was the last few weeks of "who started the Diva's Revolution?" Remember when Paige called up the NXT girls? Wait, you mean you don't, because that's not what happened, and this is nowhere near long ago enough for even children to have forgotten how this was a direct result of one of Stephanie's bizarrely inconsistent actions? Like, at some point after Nikki was gone, they actually realized how badly they'd messed up, but were somehow messing up even worse in trying to correct themselves.
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#19 Posted on 20.11.15 0754.06
Reposted on: 20.11.22 0754.24
The Bayley-Bliss match that was on NXT this week will be better than Paige-Charlotte and they did nothing more than set up a very basic feud over a title belt.

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