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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.58
....I have to admit, that was one killer catch. Most players going into the stands just fall in or sort of do a small hop. Jeter just went balls-out like a torpedo in search of that ball.



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Since: 3.10.02
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.34
I was shocked when I saw that play. The way he laid it out. Great play. Another ESPY for sure!



BTW Boston Fans, that SWOOSHING sound you hear are BROOMS!



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Since: 11.7.02
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
An absolutley sick play, in more ways than one. If it were the playoffs, he would have stayed in the game....

But that was just an amazing catach, must've been five rows deep.



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* * * * * * *

For decades, American had waged a Cold War, and few believed it could possibly end in our own lifetimes. The president was one of those few. And it was the vision and the will of Ronald Reagan that gave hope to the oppressed, shamed the oppressors and ended an evil empire . . . Ronald Reagan was more than a historic figure. He was a providential man who came along just when our nation and the world most needed him.

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Since: 16.10.02
From: Connecticut

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.19
Well, so much for my "He's hardcore, he's hardcore!" thread.

I'm a Red Sox fan, but still...hats off to Jeter. I think he actually sped up as he approached the stands.

What a game last night. Heartbreaker, but had the feel of a Game 7 playoff game.
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.34
    Originally posted by dwaters
    Well, so much for my "He's hardcore, he's hardcore!" thread.

    I'm a Red Sox fan, but still...hats off to Jeter. I think he actually sped up as he approached the stands.

    What a game last night. Heartbreaker, but had the feel of a Game 7 playoff game.
Or, for a BoSox fan, world series, you know, since your guys lost.
Sorry, too good to pass up.



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Since: 3.1.02
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.58
Flat out amazing play but isn't that play exactly what we have come to expect from Jeter in big games ? I may hate the yankees but if I could be any one player in baseball for one game, it would definitely be him.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.91
You know, there are lots of guys like Rob Neyer who use "stats" like Range Factor to decry Jeter as a BELOW AVERAGE-fielding shortstop. How they can believe that when he makes plays like the one he made last night, I'll never know.



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Since: 11.12.01
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.70
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    You know, there are lots of guys like Rob Neyer who use "stats" like Range Factor to decry Jeter as a BELOW AVERAGE-fielding shortstop. How they can believe that when he makes plays like the one he made last night, I'll never know.


Are you being serious? He also makes plenty of errors, turns a shitty double play, and his range is abysmal. Just because a dude can make a diving catch doesn't mean he's good.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.91
    Originally posted by ScottChrist
    Are you being serious? He also makes plenty of errors, turns a shitty double play, and his range is abysmal. Just because a dude can make a diving catch doesn't mean he's good.


He's made SEVEN errors this year, less than THIRTEEN everyday shortstops. He's SIXTH in Range Factor, which is (putouts + assists/innings played). He's TWELFTH in Zone Rating, which measures the amount of balls a guy's fielded in his expected range. These are not BELOW AVERAGE numbers, no matter how you look at it.

(Yeah, I just called 'em "stats". My point was I'd have expected to find Jeter at the BOTTOM of all these lists, not in the middle, if he were truly HORRIBLE.)

Who makes the backhanded play/throw to first consistently better than Jeter? Anyone? Do you ever watch a game and say "I hope he hits the ball to Jeter, right now, so he'll boot it"? Does it not take at least DECENT range to make a catch where you end up in the fifth row?

Rich Aurilia is the Mariners' shortstop right now. He's horrid in the field, relying on positioning to make plays because his athleticism isn't Major League-shortstop-caliber, and having a rough go of it due to his lack of familiarity with the AL. I've seen a BAD defensive shortstop, and Jeter isn't one.



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Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Jeter caught the ball a full step before he got
to the wall, so he didn't chase the ball into
the stands. It's still a great play because
many players would have slowed down or pulled
up and not gotten to the ball for fear of hitting
the wall and getting injured.

Is it worth the risk of losing Jeter to get one out?
The Red Sox marked out hard for this series, treating
it as if their whole season was at stake, but as a
Yankees fan I would have been yelling "No Derek, no"
during that play. That play wasn't worth the risk.

I saw Dwight Evans make awesome courageous catches
in right field for the Red Sox and the resulting
injuries cost him a good number of games. Freddie
Lynn also crashed into walls, but it may have cost
him a HOF career as he never fully recovered from
some of his injuries.

I hope Jeter isn't injured. I'd like to see him
have a long, productive career. If this was a
playoff or World Series game I would be willing
to see him risk his health like that, but for one
out (with two-outs anyway, having already taken
2 of 3 in the series, leading the division by
at least 6 1/2 even if they lost) I'd rather see
Jeter pull up before he hits the wall.

And on Jeter's range, if he got a better break on
the ball and got there sooner, it might have looked
like a much easier play. The players who make it
look easy are often better than the ones who are
constantly showing up in the highlight reel.

Frank
drjayphd
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Since: 22.4.02
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.61
You wanted the best, you got... Out of Context Quote of the Week.

"I will blow your ass out." (drjayphd)


Actually, JayJay, the same people are saying that this season, Jeter's actually been a good defensive shortstop. Yes, according to the stats, too.

And that was one hell of a game, too. I still think that it doesn't mean as much as everyone thinks it does, but the way they're playing... it's almost like how everyone thought the Yanks'd be... no heart.



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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    He's made SEVEN errors this year, less than THIRTEEN everyday shortstops. He's SIXTH in Range Factor, which is (putouts + assists/innings played). He's TWELFTH in Zone Rating, which measures the amount of balls a guy's fielded in his expected range. These are not BELOW AVERAGE numbers, no matter how you look at it.

    (Yeah, I just called 'em "stats". My point was I'd have expected to find Jeter at the BOTTOM of all these lists, not in the middle, if he were truly HORRIBLE.)
All those stats are well and good, however four times in his career, Cal Ripken made eight errors or less at short. I will defend Cal to the death, but in now way does his lack of errors or his good range factor make him Ozzie Smith defenselive. A good defensive shortstop, but not great.

Jeter is the same way. He makes outstanding plays from time to time, but he is just not "great."



God Bless Ronald Reagan, and may he rest in peace...

* * * * * * *

For decades, American had waged a Cold War, and few believed it could possibly end in our own lifetimes. The president was one of those few. And it was the vision and the will of Ronald Reagan that gave hope to the oppressed, shamed the oppressors and ended an evil empire . . . Ronald Reagan was more than a historic figure. He was a providential man who came along just when our nation and the world most needed him.

Fellow Americans, here lies a graceful and a gallant man.
- Dick Cheney, 6/9/2004


Reagan had a rare and prized gift called leadership, that ineffable and sometimes magical quality that sets some men and women apart so that millions will follow them as they conjure up grand visions and invite their countrymen to dream big and exciting dreams.-Brian Mulroney, 6/11/2004
The Lurk
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Since: 7.6.04

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.64
I didn't think the catch was all that great. He caught the ball three steps from the wall and I really think he could have slowed down. But it's just another case of Jeter being Jeter and pandering for the cameras, TRYING to make the highlight reels and look good instead of making the routine play.

Ever noticed how when the Yank's have the "dugout"shot on tv, Jeter almost always looks directly into the camera while everyone else pretty much acts like it's not even there?



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Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.70
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    He's made SEVEN errors this year, less than THIRTEEN everyday shortstops. He's SIXTH in Range Factor, which is (putouts + assists/innings played). He's TWELFTH in Zone Rating, which measures the amount of balls a guy's fielded in his expected range. These are not BELOW AVERAGE numbers, no matter how you look at it.


This does not change that for years he's been a really bad fielder.


    Who makes the backhanded play/throw to first consistently better than Jeter? Anyone?


Alex Rodriguez. But Jeter does have a very good arm, no one disputes that. On the other side of the argument is that he should be getting to the ball quicker, which is a well-worn argument, and I agree with it. He also has a LOT of trouble going to his left.


    Does it not take at least DECENT range to make a catch where you end up in the fifth row?


Career Range Factor for Jeter and some contemporaries:


Derek Jeter 4.00
Alex Rodriguez 4.43
Nomar Garciaparra 4.41
Miguel Tejada 4.61
Jimmy Rollins 4.28
Edgar Renteria 4.24
Rey Ordonez 4.28
Rich Aurilia 4.16


Year-by-year, Jeter v. the league:


Jeter The League
1996 4.38 4.19
1997 4.41 4.05
1998 4.16 4.26
1999 3.93 4.19
2000 4.12 4.71
2001 3.81 4.49
2002 3.81 4.56
2003 3.75 4.54


Clay Davenport's Fielding Ratings for Jeter:


2002 -30
2001 -18
2000 -27
1999 -13


That's how many runs below average he was compared to other shortstops. (I don't know what his 2003 CDFR was)

*But* I would like to take back the double play comment, because I think a lot of his trouble the last couple years in that department can be blamed on Soriano, who was terrible at the DP.

I'm not telling you you have to agree with me at all, but the numbers say Jeter has been a very bad shortstop for a number of years. He makes some pretty plays. A lot of them shouldn't be as pretty. A lot of the pretty plays he makes are the same balls he doesn't get to a lot of the time. Making a spectacular play - and it was truly amazing and will probably deservedly win every Web Gem and ESPY in the land - in a memorable game doesn't make him good, and neither does half a season of improving upon his crappy defense of the past six seasons.

Deep inside Jeter, there is a good shorstop, if his first two seasons are any indication, so I'm not trying to tell YOU that this year is some big fluke. Maybe he just worked on his glove in the offseason. I wouldn't know.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.92
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Jeter is the same way. He makes outstanding plays from time to time, but he is just not "great."


I as only trying to argue that he's NOT "BELOW AVERAGE", nothing more, nothing less. He certainly is no Ozzie or Omar Vizquel or even close.

    Originally posted by The Lurk
    I didn't think the catch was all that great. He caught the ball three steps from the wall and I really think he could have slowed down.


My first thought was that Jeter's watched too many NBA players fly into the stands and be OK, and thought he could pull a Tayshaun by ending up in the third row. Of course NBA players land on either cameramen or folding, movable chairs for the most part while the stuff Jeter landed on hasn't moved since they installed it.

    Originally posted by The Lurk
    But it's just another case of Jeter being Jeter and pandering for the cameras, TRYING to make the highlight reels and look good instead of making the routine play. Ever noticed how when the Yank's have the "dugout"shot on tv, Jeter almost always looks directly into the camera while everyone else pretty much acts like it's not even there?


Trash. (TM DJ FrostyFreeze)

EDIT: Dammit Scott! I'm sure you were just trying to SNEAK you post in ahead of mine.

I've just never watched a Yankee game and thought Jeter whiffed on a ball he should've OBVIOUSLY reached or anything like that to where I'd say he's anything worse than SOLID or AVERAGE. I once watched Russ Davis make something like 35 errors in 120 games at third for the M's, so I've seen BAD fielding.

I also think that if Jeter was SUCH a liability, the Yankees lineup would have Jeter somewhere else, especially with A-Rod RIGHT THERE. Steinbrenner and Torre don't strike me as the kind of guys who would keep Jeter at SS just because he's "Derek Jeter".

(edited by JayJayDean on 2.7.04 1208)


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Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.70
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    I also think that if Jeter was SUCH a liability, the Yankees lineup would have Jeter somewhere else, especially with A-Rod RIGHT THERE. Steinbrenner and Torre don't strike me as the kind of guys who would keep Jeter at SS just because he's "Derek Jeter".

    (edited by JayJayDean on 2.7.04 1208)


I believe the conventional reasoning was Jeter had practiced at SS with the team and A-Rod was more than comfortable moving to third so they just went with that.



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Since: 6.1.02
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.20
    Originally posted by ScottChrist
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      I also think that if Jeter was SUCH a liability, the Yankees lineup would have Jeter somewhere else, especially with A-Rod RIGHT THERE. Steinbrenner and Torre don't strike me as the kind of guys who would keep Jeter at SS just because he's "Derek Jeter".

      (edited by JayJayDean on 2.7.04 1208)


    I believe the conventional reasoning was Jeter had practiced at SS with the team and A-Rod was more than comfortable moving to third so they just went with that.


Yes, Jeter made a great play (i thought) but let's not forget A-Rod's diving stop while tagging third base and then having to throw it home (somehow getting it around the batter). While A-Rod is the better shortstop, he can adapt to third easier as well, so I think it's good having A-Rod at third, if they had moved Jeter to third he'd be doing very badly in the field.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.92
    Originally posted by ScottChrist
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      I also think that if Jeter was SUCH a liability, the Yankees lineup would have Jeter somewhere else, especially with A-Rod RIGHT THERE. Steinbrenner and Torre don't strike me as the kind of guys who would keep Jeter at SS just because he's "Derek Jeter".

      (edited by JayJayDean on 2.7.04 1208)


    I believe the conventional reasoning was Jeter had practiced at SS with the team and A-Rod was more than comfortable moving to third so they just went with that.


I was thinking even BEFORE A-Rod got there. Why not move him to left, or center, or right field last year, when they had Karim Frickin' Garcia out there? He wouldn't be the first shortstop to change positions. Like the Yankees couldn't find another great player to play SS. Surely they could've traded for Tejada if they'd wanted to.

I realize the Yankees have Bernie Williams in CF and Matsui in LF, but the didn't ALWAYS have Matsui and Bernie surely could be a corner outfielder or DH or 1B with Giambi being the DH. I'd think there are plenty of options to shore up that HUGE hole at shortstop, especially for the Yankees.



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Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.70
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    I realize the Yankees have Bernie Williams in CF and Matsui in LF, but the didn't ALWAYS have Matsui and Bernie surely could be a corner outfielder or DH or 1B with Giambi being the DH. I'd think there are plenty of options to shore up that HUGE hole at shortstop, especially for the Yankees.


A lot of people have questioned this over the years. I guess it's just one of those things? I don't know, I'm not in their management. Some have said that Jeter would probably make a poor 3B or outfielder because of his bad first step, but that's just something I've heard. I always thought he'd be a pretty good 3B with a good shortstop on his side or a fine 2B.



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Since: 17.2.04
From: Eugene, Oregon

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.67
"Look Steinbrenner I've got cojones! I can still play!"
"That may be true Derek, but one is currently residing next to your spleen after that dive. Don't do anything stupid again, or I will implant my eggs in you!"

Still it was an awesome play, I'm glad I caught it on the highlights. But I wonder whether or not it was really worth it.

I agree with drjayphd, if um he was meaning that the Yankoffs... whoops Yankees have no heart.

Though would like to give some love to Eckstein to the play he made the other day, and the spectacular thrown to first to get the man out.




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Cameron's numbers this season were much like Tony Clark's were during his days in Detroit: Once the team went in the tank and the games were meaningless, he played well. When the Mets were within 1 in July (an indictment on the N.L.
- redsoxnation, Manny To The Mets??? (2004)
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