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The W - Baseball - Yikes! poor Jon Lieber
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PhilRippa
Chourico








Since: 4.1.02
From: Fairfax, VA

Since last post: 1896 days
Last activity: 501 days
#1 Posted on
Per an update on yahoo fantasy baseball (and I just saw it on ESPN.com too)

"Chicago Cubs pitcher Jon Lieber will undergo Tommy John surgery on his right elbow Thursday. He went on the 15-day disabled list August 2 with tendonitis in his right elbow, but the ligaments in the elbow are "worn and thin," accoding to the Associated Press. After winning 20 games last year, Lieber has been bothered all season by pain in the elbow. He will not return to the Cubs' rotation for 12-14 months."

Granted, Tommy John surgery is by no means a death sentence but you never know how and someone is going to return from that.

And, of course, this won't prevent Bruce Kimm from letting Mark Prior throw 341 pitches in his next start. Moron.

Phil




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haz
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Whitby, Ontario, Canada

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 7 days
#2 Posted on
I am only a part-time Baseball fan, therefore perhaps someone can enlighten me about this.

After reading this thread, I started thinking about how pitchers seems to be much more fragile than they used to be.


Is that true?

Are Managers making them throw too much?

Do they throw much harder than pitchers used to and that is why their arms get blown out?

Are they throwing too hard too young and just wear out earlier?





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HitTheSnoozeButton
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Pittsburgh PA

Since last post: 2032 days
Last activity: 382 days
#3 Posted on
Well, it kinda strikes randomly. For instance, Randy Johnson throws 125 pitches a game and he's doing ok. Conversely, Kris Benson of the Pirates didn't throw a ton of pitches, but it got him. Kerry Wood also had the surgery, but he's come back throwing harder and better. So, by no means is it a death sentence for a pitcher. And it is sometimes the result of throwing too many pitches but not always.



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Jubuki
Kolbasz








Since: 16.7.02

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#4 Posted on
It's also throwing too many different kinds of pitches that can kill you. Guys who throw splitters have had notorious arm problems as well. That it's happened to 2 Cubs pitchers in a few years is alarming, particularly when it's been their best 2 starters. Good thing Seattle was paying more attention than I was when I was thinking to myself, "Damn, why don't they go out and steal Lieber from the Cubs for the pennant race?"



Chris
The AIR RAID CRASH
TheCow
Landjager








Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 2393 days
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#5 Posted on
Is [the idea that pitchers are becoming fragile] true?

Personally, I don't think so; that's been adressed before me, plus I'll cover the rest of the reasons (IMO) with the other questions.

Are Managers making them throw too much?

In some cases, yeah, they are. As Snooze said, some pitchers like Johnson, Schilling, Maddux, etc., can handle high pitch counts consistently. (Yes, I know Maddux left after 5 yesterday, that was hip problems.) If they were over what they felt they could pitch on any given start, I can see that they have some way to tell their manager/pitching coach that they need to go out. However, some of the younger pitchers can't necessarily handle the workload, they're throwing too much too soon (see Prior, Mark; Ankiel, Rick).

Do they throw much harder than pitchers used to and that is why their arms get blown out?

Mmmm.... I don't think so. There were fireballers long before the modern pitcher was born. Not to mention Nolan Ryan (but I don't know of his history of injury, if he had any.) I also think that since the advent of Tommy John surgery, more pitchers don't necessarily mind blowing their arm out. (Yeah, of course they DO mind - you know what I'm getting at.) Tommy John has a fairly high rate of success now, so pitchers will go ahead and have the operation done, in the hopes that they'll be able to make it back and be better.

Are they throwing too hard too young and just wear out earlier?

This, I believe, is the problem. Young pitchers that aren't properly monitored can be stunted in their growth as a pitcher, resulting in more injury, or just ineffectiveness.

I think Leiber will make it back, but this is a serious blow to the Cubs. ....Of course, those seem to happen fairly often. Just when their rotation next year was shaping up to be good, too... As I said, Tommy John surgery seems to be less of a risk now than what it was when it first came out. He should (hopefully) be fine.

EDIT: italics fix

(edited by TheCow on 8.8.02 1045)




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Sec19Row53
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Oconomowoc, WI

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Y!:
#6 Posted on

    Originally posted by TheCow

    Are they throwing too hard too young and just wear out earlier?

    This, I believe, is the problem. Young pitchers that aren't properly monitored can be stunted in their growth as a pitcher, resulting in more injury, or just ineffectiveness.

    I think Leiber will make it back, but this is a serious blow to the Cubs. ....Of course, those seem to happen fairly often. Just when their rotation next year was shaping up to be good, too... As I said, Tommy John surgery seems to be less of a risk now than what it was when it first came out. He should (hopefully) be fine.



I think you have it nailed with this point. Kids these days start throwing curve balls in high school or earlier, when they should be building arm strength by just throwing.

As for the loss of Lieber being a big loss, yes, we could use him. However, as bad as we are, it doesn't really matter. I can't see picking up his $6.5 million option for next year, even though I'd like to keep him on the team. We'll see how that plays out.



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ges7184
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Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 114 days
Last activity: 37 days
#7 Posted on
Having watched a little of the Little League World Series over the past couple of years, I'm noticing that even many of the youngsters there are throwing various breaking pitches. I would say that is way too young.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1212 days
Last activity: 1009 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.09
That is true. When I was pitching in Little League I only threw one breaking pitch, a chop curveball that put little strain on the arm(mind you it didn't help me make the bigs or anything). These kids are throwing sliders, and slurves, and all sorts of stuff. Combine that with sometimes poor mechanics and you're setting the stage for bad news later in life, especially if the kid keeps pitching.
The Big Kat
Kishke








Since: 11.1.02
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 404 days
Last activity: 42 min.
#9 Posted on
I think this is a really big blow to a pretty good starting staff on the Cubs. It takes pitchers at least a year and a half to get back from that surgery, and I can't remember too many that came all the way back the same as they used to be. Even Kerry Wood, who has his velocity back up to the upper 90's, doesn't have the same bite on his breaking ball that struck out 20 Astros in '98. Hopefully Lieber will get back, but for what team?

(edited by The Big Kat on 8.8.02 1203)


-The Big Kat
"It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care." -Peter Gibbons, Office Space
edturtle
Linguica








Since: 24.1.02
From: HI in the middle, round on both ends!

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#10 Posted on

    Originally posted by haz
    I am only a part-time Baseball fan, therefore perhaps someone can enlighten me about this.

    After reading this thread, I started thinking about how pitchers seems to be much more fragile than they used to be.


    Is that true?




I don't think so. I recall reading a study on it, it's pretty much the same percentage as it's ever been, of pitchers going down. We just hear about it more due to all the extra communication and coverage. Flip open a Baseball Encyclopedia in the pitchers section some time. There are ZILLIONS of injury-related flame outs for every pitcher who has a decent pro career.

I *DO* think though, that teams are more willing to have a pitcher get something done with his arm now than ever in the history of the sport. Medical science is pretty nifty these days, I hear.



    Are Managers making them throw too much?

    Do they throw much harder than pitchers used to and that is why their arms get blown out?

    Are they throwing too hard too young and just wear out earlier?




Umm...Probably not to all of the above. I think you'll probably find that organizations are GENERALLY more cautious with pitchers now than ever before. And I doubt pitchers today are doing throwing any harder than pitchers of say 20-30 years ago.

It seems to me that the problem is more of a combination of poor mechanics/crappy pitching techniques, too many kids throwing too many breaking balls at too young of an age (even when just playing catch!) and kids who just don't throw enough to get their arms strong to begin with.

And then of course, there's the luck factor.

And I still think there should be more experimentation with sidearm motions. But what do I know?



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Now you gonna die!!
Jubuki
Kolbasz








Since: 16.7.02

Since last post: 4335 days
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#11 Posted on
Your signature rules the fucking planet in its entirety, Ed.



Chris
The AIR RAID CRASH
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