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The W - Baseball - Yankees in `05 -- What now? (Page 2)
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redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 476 days
Last activity: 476 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.27
To defend the Bagwell/Anderson trade: Bagwell was a third baseman with Boggs and Cooper ahead of him, and they had Vaughn and Quintana ahead of him at first base. Also, Reardon had had back surgery and they had traded Lee Smith earlier in the season, so the Red Sox bullpen was desperate for pitching help. Anderson received a standing ovation on his way to the bullpen on the day he reported to the team, and if it wasn't for the Collusion players becoming automatic free agents, he would have been with the team the next year. The trade also was before Clemens pulled up lame in early September and they blew a 6 1/2 game lead, needing then to have to have a big last weekend against Toronto and Brunansky's catch against the White Sox to win the division. Long run, it was a bad trade. At the time, it made sense.
Why all this talk of Pavano not going to the Yankees is out there makes no sense. According to most reports, he grew up a Yankees fan, and has the Yankees and Red Sox on his radar because he knows it will drive up his price.
If Baltimore trades B.J. Ryan, they deserve to become a bottom feeder. Dominant lefties are something you beg to get, not let get away to a team in your own division that has no farm system. Unless it's for A-Rod or Matsui, trading Ryan would make zero sense.
And, I was listening to Cashman on the FAN last week, and he did say they might have hit a ceiling in terms of payroll, as they had gone over what they had brought in, despite drawing almost 4 million fans.



Abandon Ship. Abandon Ship. Forget the women and children, get me a lifeboat.
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 95 days
Last activity: 4 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.87
    Originally posted by wordlife
    Jeter and Bernie are the only guys in that locker room who have guts if you ask me. Jeter even came out and said "This team is not the same anymore".
Kind of a given, since Rivera, Jeter, Bernie, Hernandez (counting him since he never actually pitched for the Expos), and Posada are the only guys on the team who were on the team the last time they won it (2000). Redsoxnation said what I was thinking reading through the thread to this point: When was Pavano quoted as saying he's not considering NY? If they could actually throw Brown and lotsa cash at Arizona for Johnson, I could see him and Pavano coming in to round out the rotation with Mussina, Lieber, and Hernandez. I think Kevin Brown, no matter how much the Yanks have to pay of his $15 mil, will not throw another pitch for NY. The bullpen needs work. Heredia has a salary that will need to be dumped, and Loaiza won't be back. Ha! Loaiza back! That's funny! Karsay will be back, so that will fill a Paul Quantrill-sized gap.

Lofton, gone. Clark, gone. A guy with the Star Ledger says that Wilson "fell out of favor with management," which I didn't know, but perhaps explains why he didn't get a single AB in the postseason. If Giambi is anywhere in the vicinity of 100%, he starts, with either Olerud or Travis Lee as the backup. Since Giambi bruises like ripe fruit, they will need a decent guy keeping things warm. Beltran...everyone says he is shopping homes in the tri-state area, so that probably pushes Bernie to DH. I read somewhere that George might be able to get Vazquez to Texas, with some money I am sure, for Soriano...that seems far-fetched though, although if you think about it:

Soriano
Jeter
Rodriguez
Beltran
Matsui
Sheffield
Giambi
Williams
Posada

A good lineup, but overkill, I think. If George gets a boner and goes after Sosa, I think I am gonna puke.



"Toby...Toby...Toby...
Toby Wong...Toby Wong...Toby
Chung...fuckin Charlie Chan."
Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2858 days
Last activity: 2842 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.79
    Originally posted by wordlife
    I would like to believe that Tek and Pedro will be the guys that will come back. I have a feeling Tek will be in LA next year but Pedro will be here.


No WAY do they trade Varitek. He is much more important to the team than Pedro, who is on the downswing of his career and costs more money than he's worth. They could get two good pitchers for the amount of money they're paying Pedro. Varitek, on the other hand, is indispensible.

Plus, Schilling would be livid if they traded Varitek, and Schilling has pull. Those two click like no pitcher and catcher in recent memory.



"Are you- are you sad?"

-No.

"But your- your songs are sad."

-My songs are of time and distance. The sadness is in you. Watch my arms. There is only the dance. These things you treasure are shells.

"I- I knew that. Once."
wordlife
Head cheese








Since: 4.4.03

Since last post: 3358 days
Last activity: 2642 days
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by BOSsportsfan34
      Originally posted by wordlife
      It doesn't shock me that Pavano would want back here. He is from NE (New Britain CT) and was an old Sox farmhand. I think he wants his shot to prove to the Sox regime what they missed out on by trading him. I remember Bagwell a few years back when he was FA wanted back here. Any NE kids dream is to play in Fenway wearing a Sox jersey.



    Both Bagwell and Pavano were former Sox farm players who got traded away. Big difference between the situations...

    Bagwell traded for: Larry Anderson.

    Pavano traded for(along with another Sox farm player Tony armas Jr.): Pedro Martinez.

    Sox got arguably the best pitcher of the last 30-40 years when he was at his peak for 2 minor league guys, one of which (Pavano) didn't really do much in his career until this past season and the other guy who has a career 32-41 W/L record and a 4.21 ERA. It's nice to see Pavano become the pitched some though he would be but you still do that deal every time.






I know the history of the trades thanks (check where I am from). And my point of bringing up Bags was that you will find most NE kids always want to play for the Sox (Mike Bordick and Greg Gagne also come to mind for me). That's why it didn't shock me that Pavano wouldn't mind coming back. However, whoever stated the bidding war thing has an excellent point also.

RSN, I totally understand the reasoning behind the trade for Andersen. I wasn't jazzed about it (I got to see Bags play at NB and thought he was great) but the trade made sense in that they needed a guy in that pen to shut things down and Andersen was having a GREAT year.

But, I never stated that I wouldn't have made that trade. All I was saying is that Pavano may feel he has to prove that he has the skills to do the job, that's all. It's kinda like if they hired a guy from MIT to do your job and they canned you, are you saying you wouldn't try to show the company that you are still pretty good and could have done a damn fine job eventhough you know he is better? C'mon!

And jfkfc, I hear ya but it was kinda strange to hear Jeter (who is usually pretty eloquent) come out with something like that. It was surreal to hear the heart and soul of that team come out and basically say "We really aren't anything special". It seems like you are a big Empire fan, that quote didn't bother you at all?!?!

Tek will not have to get traded, he is an FA and is a Boras client. I have a feeling that LA will wayyy overpay for him due to the fact that they desperately need a catcher and a leader in that clubhouse. I think Pedro will take a little less to stay in Boston as I feel the only 2 teams who have the $$ to compete are the BoSox and New York.

(edited by wordlife on 25.10.04 1243)



"I know a great deal about the Middle East because I've been raising Arabian horses for over 20 years, I've researched the culture for most of my life."--Patrick Swayze on Iraq


Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2858 days
Last activity: 2842 days
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.79
Sorry, I didn't mean to say "trade." I just meant that they would be crazy to let him go. LA can't compete with Boston's money and varitek obviously likes where he's at right now.

I just don't see him even wanting to go to LA. Why would he leave Boston? I'm sure they'll give him a huge pay raise. I see Theo signing Tek before Pedro. He's more important to the club, and less expensive.



"Are you- are you sad?"

-No.

"But your- your songs are sad."

-My songs are of time and distance. The sadness is in you. Watch my arms. There is only the dance. These things you treasure are shells.

"I- I knew that. Once."
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 95 days
Last activity: 4 days
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.87
    Originally posted by wordlife
    And jfkfc, I hear ya but it was kinda strange to hear Jeter (who is usually pretty eloquent) come out with something like that. It was surreal to hear the heart and soul of that team come out and basically say "We really aren't anything special". It seems like you are a big Empire fan, that quote didn't bother you at all?!?!
Jeter stated the obvious, something that didn't even need to be said. You can look at this team and KNOW that the "intestinal fortitude" is gone. The "heart" guys like O'Neill couldn't remain together forever. When they lost in 2001 to Arizona, I was...not devastated, but really disappointed. O'Neill, Tino, Brocious...three of my favorite players of all time, and I knew they wouldn't be back. I look at Rodriguez, Brown, Vazquez, Mussina...I really don't care for any of them. What's to like? The whole, "A-Rod is a Yankee now that he went toe to toe with Varitek" was a crock of shit to begin with. Getting Beltran, Randy Johnson, or Soriano back won't pump my nads any. A World Series win with those guys...I don't know, but I can't picture it being as satisfying as anything from 95-01. Jeter was right, and the more I sit here thinking about it, I am glad he said it. What to do about it...no clue.

To be completely honest, I really like this Red Sox team a lot. Pedro's post-game address to the media really made me look at him in a better light. The whole bunch is really likeable and easy to respect. That said, Millar is still a douchebag, and I hope they win tonight, go up 3-0, and then proceed to lose four straight.



"Toby...Toby...Toby...
Toby Wong...Toby Wong...Toby
Chung...fuckin Charlie Chan."
Whitebacon
Boudin blanc








Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

Since last post: 64 days
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.04
The NY Times has an interesting take on this:

    Originally posted by David Leonhardt of the New York Times
    Or look at Jeter, the crown prince of big-game performances. Despite an important double in Game 5, he hit just .200 in the Red Sox series and missed some chances to bury Boston with a key hit. In the field, he failed to reach a number of balls that most shortstops would have, setting up Boston rallies.

    Then, once the series had ended, he told reporters that this was a different Yankee team than the one that recently won four championships. The implication seemed to be that his new teammates were not clutch and that the outcome would have been different had the clutch players of the past still been around.


Link HERE (nytimes.com)

(Free registration required.)



too-old-now
Bockwurst








Since: 7.1.04

Since last post: 1295 days
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.98
The market isn't close to being set yet, it will depend on whether the Red Sox win it all or not. If the Red Sox win, I can see them easily letting both Pedro and Derek Lowe go, but if they lose they will be pressed to keep Pedro for sure, and maybe Lowe as well.

The Yankees will have to look for another arm, and will clearly be in the running for anybody good. I agree that Lofton and Clark are gone, but as tough a spot Kevin Brown put the team into, I think he'll be back only because there won't be many better options.

Sure, the Yankees lost a lot of the "heart" factor when Tino, O'Neill, Brosious left, but to me the biggest two "heart" losses to the team were Andy Pettite and Don Zimmer.

I do have to disagree with anyone who suggests Mariano Rivera, Mike Mussina, and especially Hideki Matsui don't have the same heart or "Yankee class as" the above bunch. I don't think Jeter was excluding these guys.

Lofton, Giambi, and especially A-Rod and Kevin Brown remind me more of the Darryl Strawberry / Jose Canseco former Yankees - they can help win a few games but were generally overpriced arrogant paychecks that most Yankee fans didn't care about when they left.

Edit - speellling

(edited by too-old-now on 26.10.04 1144)

(edited by too-old-now on 26.10.04 1922)
SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

Since last post: 1324 days
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.84
    Originally posted by jfkfc
    I look at Rodriguez, Brown, Vazquez, Mussina...I really don't care for any of them. What's to like?


Nothing about the rest so far, I guess, but how about that Mussina bailed Clemens out in game seven of the ALCS last year and gave them a chance to come back? How about that he outdueled Beckett in the Series after that? Or that he showed up to pitch in the postseason this year? Moose does his job, and it still breaks my heart that he left the Orioles for the Yankees, but someday he's going to get the respect he deserves for being a fine postseason pitcher. It should be now, but Yankee fans don't seem to have really taken to him, and I don't get it.

ALSO: Brosius, people, Brosius. What's really amazing about Brosius and the love Yankee fans have for him is that outside of a couple moments, he had two really crappy regular seasons and was overall horrid in the postseason. But he showed up for the World Series 3 out of 4 times. Maybe you had to hate him to remember his name. As in, "Goddamn Brosius did it again."

(edited by ScottChrist on 26.10.04 1914)


@scott.com // @tcf.com // @rym.com // @dvdaf.com
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 95 days
Last activity: 4 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.87
    Originally posted by ScottChrist
    how about that Mussina bailed Clemens out in game seven of the ALCS last year and gave them a chance to come back? How about that he outdueled Beckett in the Series after that? Or that he showed up to pitch in the postseason this year? Moose does his job, and it still breaks my heart that he left the Orioles for the Yankees, but someday he's going to get the respect he deserves for being a fine postseason pitcher. It should be now, but Yankee fans don't seem to have really taken to him, and I don't get it.
I can tell you why some Yankee fans don't like him, namely me and a few people I have talked to about it. He comes off like a douchebag, very snotty and leave-me-alone-like. Sorta standoffish. People can't connect to that. I have gotten to dislike him less over the past year. One thing, though, I have never questioned his ability. He can be brilliant on the mound, and looking at his bailout of Clemens, and this year gutting it out against Boston after serving up 3 runs in the first, has shown that he can thrive under pressure. I am just not a fan of his. Some guys, on your team or not, you connect to, and some you don't. He did have a great line earlier this year when he was asked about players having advertisement-type patches or corporate logos on their uniforms, a la soccer - he said something to the effect of, "What would be next, us coming out with Chico's Bail Bonds on the backs of our uniforms?"



"Toby...Toby...Toby...
Toby Wong...Toby Wong...Toby
Chung...fuckin Charlie Chan."
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That time was a few weeks ago. Hopefully neither Dr. Pappas or Gilbert Mudge are involved in this diagnosis. Shut him down for the season and see him again in late February healthy.
- redsoxnation, Ortiz sent home; Out indefinitely (2006)
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