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The W - Pro Wrestling - WWF's Tough Enough 2, Again
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Wyn
Longanisa








Since: 28.2.02
From: Indiana

Since last post: 4493 days
Last activity: 4487 days
AIM:  
#1 Posted on
Alright. So, my first thread about TE2 was a personal view and 'how do you feel' type. But, this one, I feel the need to gripe a little.


Day 1: Shad doesn't show up for a mysterious reason and it's later revealed that he didn't pass the physical. Explanation? None. So, who do they bring in to take his place? Danny. Ah, c'mon, guys!! Danny does look like Danny Bonaduce. Not only that, but he has the tattoo of a fargin' shamrock/four(three?)-leaf clover on his right shoulder. Without his shirt on, in that sun, I'm surprised no one went blind.

* Anni the Buff sits on her bed with Jessie the Small, but Ever-Determined, crying about her weakened performance in the ring. And, I'll be -damned- if there weren't some lesbian tendencies happening there. Jessie comforted Anni with her hands on her thigh, rubbing occasionally. (And, Wyn's eyes doth pop out in amazement.) Woo!

Aaron's girlfriend gives him an ultimatum over the phone, stating that, "You said you wanted to marry me. I came to Virginia for you and now, you're not here. You promised to take care of me and our children. You can't do that in that line of work." Aaron alludes to writing his girlfriend off in a letter. How lovely. In my opinion, #1) there's no saying that Aaron is a shoe-in for a spot, and #2) yeah, it's the opportunity of a lifetime, but who's to say you're guaranteed anything? Work it out with your girlfriend. She may be all you have at the end of this show.



Day 2: Nothing very exciting happens today, save for Ivory's bitching at Jessie. Apparently, Jessie's smiling while locked was highly offensive to Ivory. I agree that smiling while taking on a task from your trainer isn't really a good idea. You -are- training to be a wrestler. But, Ivory did come down a little harsh on her.

Jessie was accused of making eyes at the guys while practicing locking. ([blink] Huh?) Yeah. Ivory told her that this was a competition and that locking was not like sex in the bedroom. This really broke Jessie up. She says she's ready to quit.



Day 3: Aaron can't cut the mustard. He falls down while walking with the heavy cans of sand and fails almost every attempt to jump on the box after that. He says he's blacking out and an ambulance is called. The show ends there, with Aaron on the ground, looking white as a sheet.. and we don't know what's wrong with him. Frustrating, to say the least.

There's some speculation as to whether it was heat exhaustion or not, because of what Tazz said on Heat. There was also a clip of Thursday's show of Al cutting someone. I wonder who it'll be. My prediction: Aaron. I'm not so sure it was heat exhaustion. It could've been drugs or something else. If it -was- heat exhaustion, they may cut him for simply being too stupid to eat enough at breakfast (which, I don't think he did eat anything that morning) and not drinking enough water out in the heat.

To sum it up, bah. Disappointing. My picks (realistically speaking) are Jake and Anni. Personally, I'd like for Jake and Jessie to go on. I like Anni, but Jessie's got a fire in her. Ah, well.




Jekyll and Hyde had nothin' on me. >8D
Promote this thread!
EastCoastAvenger
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02
From: Clearwater, FL

Since last post: 1961 days
Last activity: 1 day
#2 Posted on
Said it before in a similar thread, but it definitely bears repeating, so "cut & paste", here we go!

[This whole show is a bunch of bullshit. You have first Tazz, and now Hardcore Holly as the two bitter old bastards way past their prime stretching the trainees to make themselves feel like a man and no one is willing to strike back because they know DAMN well they'd be out on their ass if they raise a finger in their direction. You have a purposeless obstacle course that was probably forced on them by MTV. And before I forget, we have a bunch of wimps with little to no previous training (Hawk being the exception) who are willing to eat this shit up with a spoon for what?
The "privilege" to work for that piece of shit, Vince McMahon! My personal plan for the longest time was to go back to wrestling school after I graduate college and work the indies, hopefully working my way up. Well, I may do the weekend warrior thing for a while (for kicks) but the dream is now to get on one of these shows and give the ultimate show: That is, the first time one of these "trainers" steps over the line, kick their ass until their nose bleeds!
Sorry for the anger overdose, but I've been through wrestling school once and that was a great experience I'd recommend to anyone wanting to break into the business. But Tough Enough? It's MTV teaming up with a bunch of bitter J-brones (Al Snow and Jackie excluded since they looked like they actually wanted to TEACH something!) to haze a bunch of ignorant kids who don't know enough to tell them to fuck off, then find a real school!]

My opinion hasn't changed since I originally posted this. I'd still like to break a toe off in one of the trainer's (excluding Al and Jackie) just for acting more like dumb ass frat boys hazing pledges than professional wrestling instructors. The whole show would be worth watching if one, just ONE of them grew some balls and just cold-cocked somebody (I'm pulling for Tazz or Holly), but MTV weeds the agressive (and those possessing self-respect) a little too well for that to happen.



A friend in need is a friend indeed,
but a friend with weed is MUCH better!
Punkinhed
Salami








Since: 23.1.02

Since last post: 4217 days
Last activity: 4193 days
#3 Posted on



I'll agree that Tazz and Holly do seem to be pretty rough on the kids, but maybe that's what is needed here to show them how hard it can be. I mean, assuming they make it, I imagine most of the WWF locker room is not going to treat them kindly at all (those Maven chairshots and UT beatdowns were, in a large part, the "welcome mat" for him, I'd imagine.)

They HAVE to make it hard, because if you can't take someone barking in your face you can't cut it, right? I mean, these folks are training people to put other people's careers and lives in their hands; if they don't really want it and can't take a little humiliation and pain then they ain't cut out for it.

If you go in there looking to prove yourself and knock someone down, you wouldn't make it. I'm not saying you physically couldn't (I don't know you) but that doing so would show that you don't have the correct attitude for the job, in my opinion.

Yes, Holly and Tazz are being pricks, but they have to be; I understand the military is the same way. The obstacle course did seem kinda pointless, but I'm not an expert on fitness, and I'm willing to allow a little MTV-inspired stuff as long as it's not too silly. I'm not sure about what a lack of training has to do with anything, it's probably better (or at least faster) to have a clean slate than to have to unlearn a lot of prior training that doesn't fit with the WWF style. These are supposed to be "average people" after all. Also, if they went to a "real" school they wouldn't be getting a shot at the big time so soon, and that would allow me personally to eat a lot of shit if needed.

Incidentally, how do you know Vince McMahon is a piece of shit?
Punkinhed
Salami








Since: 23.1.02

Since last post: 4217 days
Last activity: 4193 days
#4 Posted on


Oh and the above is me, I idiotically forgot to login, sorry.

And Wyn, there is no reason to apoligize for being a Saturn fan. He's one of my favorites as well.

(edited by Punkinhed on 11.3.02 0840)
"Oh! The light! [pointing to the setting sun] Blackness comes when the light goes away!" "Yeah, but this is getting to be a pretty regular thing." "I don't care. It still scares the sh*t out of me."
WTF13
Boerewors








Since: 22.1.02

Since last post: 4429 days
Last activity: 4429 days
#5 Posted on
Ever read any interviews with veteran wrestlers about how they broke into the business? The Tough Enough kids have it easy compared to how it used to be. The old guys would do nothing but stretch the newcomers every night for a year or so. If they still hung around after that, they'd finally let them know how things worked.

These kids are getting opportunities their trainers never had, and I can totally see why the trainers feel it necessary to be rough on them and teach them respect for the business. Even Chavo, a young guy, made a big deal about how important that was.



"No one has a beer party at Scott Hall's expense!"
EastCoastAvenger
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02
From: Clearwater, FL

Since last post: 1961 days
Last activity: 1 day
#6 Posted on
About Vince: He's a promoter, that makes him a POS automatically. Sure, he's charismatic, intelligent and saavy, but a pig in an Armani suit is still a pig.

About Tazz and Holly: Everyone seems to be under the impression that "paying dues" is solely kissing ass and taking shit from those in a "higher" position than you currently are. I don't personally buy this mainly because it's never proven true in my own life. I'm not saying to go in with a chip on your shoulder (It probably did sound like that, but I was pissed when I wrote the post-I'm pretty aggressive when pissed) but allowing others to walk over you is never the way to operate. Always stand tall, and people will have no choice but to look up to you! Getting stretched on a nightly basis is one thing (which I actually got used to back in 9th grade while beginning to learn jiu-jitsu), showing any measure of respect to a prick who obviously doesn't deserve it is another. It's all in your own personality.

Don't feel stupid for forgetting to login, it happens.

I've read the interviews about the vets and how they broke into the business, and I'v talked to a couple others. My own path is pretty similar to a lot of the older guys (going to a wrestling school, getting stretched, putting up rings, etc...) but this doesn't make me respect the Tough Enough kids any less, and I doubt it would make a TRUE professional respect them any less. Why? It's all about a) What you do in the ring (look good, make your opponent look good) b)The way you conduct yourself, whether it's toward some green rookie still in wrestling school, a guy helping to put up the ring or the promoter.

Tazz and Holly have fallen short on (b). Instead of doing their jobs (and showing the importance of respect by endless hours of drills and stretching them out in the ring) they waste time talking shit and never backing it up!

Finally, NEVER apologize for being a Saturn fan! I dig his style of wrestling, and his tattoos are the shiznit!

**Before you ask, yes, I've been to wrestling school. I stopped to finish college, and very soon, I'll head back to wrestling school (refresher course if ya weeel) and spend my weekends doing local indy shows. And yes... there'll be hell to pay if the promoter tries to come up short with my money!





A friend in need is a friend indeed,
but a friend with weed is MUCH better!
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3526 days
Last activity: 3526 days
#7 Posted on
My theory on why Tazz and Hardcore Holly are bricks is because its tough love. I am a firm believer of being a jerk when need be. I think they do mostly for the TV purposes, but also to show there needs to semblance of respect when working with the people when they do join the WWF. If they learn not to shoot their mouthes off or take shots at other wrestlers, then they will have a far better career than most wrestlers.

I find Ivory's bitching about the smiliing, a little much. Ivory was watching her smile when she was hooking up with the girls too. So, I don't understand the bedroom. I thought that was the most tactless thing done by the wrestlers, so far. It made no sense and I think the WWF is trying to get ride of her first since, she is one out of the lot of them that could seriously get hurt in the ring. She is thin and skinny and it may work for Stacey Kiebler, I don't think its going to work for Jess.

A Fan- So far, Tough Enough 2 is like the rest of WWF which is stuck in nuetral.
EastCoastAvenger
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02
From: Clearwater, FL

Since last post: 1961 days
Last activity: 1 day
#8 Posted on
"Tough Love"? Nice words, but in reality nothing more than a flimsy excuse allowing two bitter has-beens to walk all over people they're supposed to train. Think about it, who did you actually have respect for. Tazz, the sumbitch who yelled, snorted and got fatter during the Tough Enough experience? Or Al Snow, the quiet one, the guy who trained them relentlessly and stretched the hell out of them when they didn't get the point? More importantly, who do you think Maven and the rest respected? Respect is earned, and I'm saying that Tazz and Hardcore Holly, hell Ivory too, don't deserve respect if this is how they choose to conduct themselves.



A friend in need is a friend indeed,
but a friend with weed is MUCH better!
Punkinhed
Salami








Since: 23.1.02

Since last post: 4217 days
Last activity: 4193 days
#9 Posted on



You may be right, and I have only two things to say, a question and an observation:


1) When did Tazz and Holly become has-beens? One is injured and the other simply wasn't wrestling. That doesn't really make them has-beens, it would seem to me.

2) Also, keep in mind that we only see what MTV (and the WWF to a lesser extent) want us to see. The conflicts between the trainers and the contestants is intentional and used to build tension. That's most likely why Tazz and Holly were chosen to provide that tension, since they seem to have little trouble with that type of character.



"Oh! The light! [pointing to the setting sun] Blackness comes when the light goes away!"
"Yeah, but this is getting to be a pretty regular thing."
"I don't care. It still scares the sh*t out of me."
EastCoastAvenger
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02
From: Clearwater, FL

Since last post: 1961 days
Last activity: 1 day
#10 Posted on
Tazz is a "has-been" because he was pretty good in ECW, but now he's basically nothing, and his prospects of becoming a big time player in the WWF are not good at all. Holly... Yeah, he's injured, but did anyone notice when he was there?! People bitch about Billy Gunn, but Holly is the real waste of space in the WWF.

Tough Enough has yet to generate a "conflict". The S.O.B.s simply yell, spit and snort in a random contestant's face. That's not a conflict, it's mindless, purposeless bullying. Now if someone were to yell back at one of them and force them to defend that badass "sarge" image, we'd have a conflict. If Tazz got off his rotund ass and ran alongside the guys (and girls), challenging them to keep up, we'd have some sort of conflict. Basically with these two, you just have two bullies who serve no purpose... Actually, they may serve the purpose of showing how a pro DOESN'T act!



A friend in need is a friend indeed,
but a friend with weed is MUCH better!
Wyn
Longanisa








Since: 28.2.02
From: Indiana

Since last post: 4493 days
Last activity: 4487 days
AIM:  
#11 Posted on
Ok, lots of stuff to respond to:

1.) I'm not ashamed of being a Saturn fan. But, there are a lot of people who have made fun of me for it; joking about when he wore a skirt in WCW (which I thought was nifty) and now, because of how the WWF has screwed his image over with that horrible angle with "Moppy". Grah. (And, his tattoos have only gotten cooler over the years.)


2.) I don't particularly like Tazz, but I don't think he's a has-been. (I really hate his announcing on Heat. No place on the mic for him with his NY accent and very colorless commentary.) However, I /do/ hate Bob Holly. Be that as it may, I'm not quite so sure he's a has-been, either. But, it sure wouldn't break my heart to see him continue to stay away from the ring. It might bring a tear of joy, though.

3.) The whole discussion about whether the treatment that the contestants get... Well, in my opinion, I think a lot of it is planned by MTV for "intense real life situations" or whatever. Boring. I know these people need to be toughened up and everything, but there could be a little more encouragement when they're doing well, maybe. To balance it out? I'm -still- rolling about that one guy getting into the 25 /just/ because Tazz was going to make fun of him. That's crap. It ruined someone else's chances for getting into the prelims.



(As an aside, MTV has gone to the crapper. I actually asked this question to my friends this weekend: Do you remember when Michael Jackson was black and MTV was white and music videos? How sad is that? I don't have anything against R&B or anything. I like it, but a whole hour of soul music is unnecessary.)




Jekyll and Hyde had nothin' on me. >8D
bigwavedave
Blutwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: morro bay ca

Since last post: 4292 days
Last activity: 4292 days
#12 Posted on
All I can tell you about the whole "drill instructor attitude" is that I wouldn't be alive today if the oldest,meanest Drill Instructor at boot camp didn't take me out into the swamp and kick my ass until I made the decision to survive in spite of him. My dad said the same thing about himself too.



"My parents said I could be anything, so I became an ASSHOLE!"
EastCoastAvenger
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02
From: Clearwater, FL

Since last post: 1961 days
Last activity: 1 day
#13 Posted on
Are we really comparing going into combat with professional wrestling? A drill sergeant yelling at you and kicking off in your ass is worlds easier than what the average enemy nation's troops would do to you during battle. Taking that attitude into the instruction of a prospective wrestler is just silly. Pro Wrestling is not combat, and it never will be. Any instructor going into a "classroom" with this attitude is begging for an incident. Now, BWD, I'm not trying to down you, in fact I agree with your view about combat training. I'm saying that no pro wrestling instructor has any right to equate themselves with a man who is training young guys to go out and risk their very lives for this country. I'm also saying that equating the two is an insult to real Drill instuctors everywhere. Now Wyn, about MTV... Come on, for the first few years, you had to watch for six hours straight to happen upon a single non-white face. The only complaint I have about MTV right now is the absolute refusal to acknowledge that rap/rock hybrid music and pop are not the only types of music! How about some Jazz?! A little Salsa would be nice. Heck, even playing "Please Forgive me" by David Gray more than once a month would be a step in the right direction!



A friend in need is a friend indeed,
but a friend with weed is MUCH better!
Punkinhed
Salami








Since: 23.1.02

Since last post: 4217 days
Last activity: 4193 days
#14 Posted on

EastCoastAvenger,

I don't believe the intent was to compare military training with wrestling training, only that their teaching styles seem to be similar. I can certinally understand the need to instill discipline in someone who will be learning something with as much potential danger as pro wrestling, where people place themselves into each others hands in much the same way that acrobats do. However,as you said, the diffirence between that and military training is considerable.

Howabout we watch more of the season then decide about Holly's feelings and motivations, ok? It seems to me that you're making a few unfounded assumptions about his personality. I'm not intending to be nosy or anything, but did you always have such a grudge against him?

And Wyn, I certinally wasn't intending to say that you should be ashamed of being a Saturn fan. I apoligize, and I misspoke.



"Oh! The light! [pointing to the setting sun] Blackness comes when the light goes away!"
"Yeah, but this is getting to be a pretty regular thing."
"I don't care. It still scares the sh*t out of me."


"Fritz! Get up for God's sake, get up! They've killed Fritz, they've killed Fritz!"
BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4353 days
Last activity: 4353 days
#15 Posted on
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

That's all I'm going to say about all this Holly bashing.



Okay, I changed my mind. Hardcore Holly is doing his job, something tells me he wasn't hired to be a Tough Enough trainer to be a nice guy, he's supposed to be a dickhead and I don't see what the big deal is anyway. TOUGH ENOUGH. T-O-U-G-H. So, dude got stretched? So what? If I'm Hardcore Holly I'd do the same thing, he scratched and clawed his way to the WWF, has been used wrong the entire time (well except for about 10 months) and yet here these guys are getting a shot handed to them, so he's going to make it a bit hard. Big deal. As for Hardcore Holly being a waste of space: #1 what space is he wasting? It's not like they actually use him. #2 the guy is solid in the ring and solid on the mic. I can list at least 10 guys on the roster who have less talent then him. I can name 3 guys who are in main event spots who have less talent then him. You can argue that he's "not over" but everytime he's been giving a REAL chance to get over, he has. They don't commit to getting the guy over. If he'd have been giving the same shots Billy Gunn was given, he'd be a star right now, there's no doubt in my mind.

Anyway, as for Tough Enough 2, I don't see the point, they are never going to get anyone as good as Maven in my opinion. I think they struck gold with him and they're pushing their luck by trying again.



And I think you're fat. So how do you like me now?

EastCoastAvenger
Bockwurst








Since: 4.1.02
From: Clearwater, FL

Since last post: 1961 days
Last activity: 1 day
#16 Posted on
Oh, so maybe I should just lighten up? Nah, not gonna happen. The "grudge" as you put it is not so much a personal grudge against Hardcore or Tazz, but simply comes from a lifetime of having no tolerance for bullies. Say what you want to justify the situation in their own mind. Call the situation "instilling respect", "showing them how hard the business can be" or anything else you want. The effect is the same. More respect for the real trainers like Al Snow and Jackie, and a (although hidden most of the time) TOTAL lack of respect for Mr. Drill Sergeant wannabe. Bottom Line. If Holly wants to show how "tough" he is, let him do some shoot fights and earn some cred as a legit badass. Otherwise, he should enjoy his status as a "sports entertainer" and leave the tag of "legit bad-ass" to guys that have earned it like Ken Shamrock and Kurt Angle!

You want to talk to me about a guy that hasn't been used properly or not been given a real shot? Then let's leave out the guy who got shoved down our throats as Thurman "Sparky" Plugg for years (and they wonder why not everyone buys the "Hardcore" gimmick - It's kinda like MC Hammer's gangsta rap album, the shit just didn't work!) Let's talk about the talented Hollys. Crash and Molly.

Alright, enough of the sarcasm and Hardcore-bashing.

I will agree on one point, TE2 is a waste of time the way it is. Have a Tough Enough using guys currently slogging their way through the indies! This eliminates the "respect" issue, because the contestants already know how tough the business is first hand. It also completely eliminates the need for a jackass drill-sergeant wannabe character. Having that type of guy present was a huge mistake anyway. You want a "Sarge" character? Bring in Sarge DeWayne Bruce (WCW Power Plant Head instructor)! He was the ideal trainer. Loud? YES! In your face? Without a fucking doubt. But he also led from the front and never made the class do exercises he wasn't also doing. In other words: No mud wrestling, no obstacle courses, no shouting into a megaphone from the back of a truck. Just train, train, train until you puked, passed out or perfected the moves he drilled into your head, all while Sarge does them with you-seemingly unaffected by the amazing amount of physical activity going on! (Yeah, I think Al Snow and Sarge would be the perfect Tough Enough trainer team-with Jackie and Molly Holly as backup)



A friend in need is a friend indeed,
but a friend with weed is MUCH better!
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There is no story! Both guys are two super respected mat wrestlers who had been in the same company for more than 15 years but had never had a singles match.
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