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The W - Pro Wrestling - WWE Smackdown # 500 (03/21/2009) (Page 2)
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oldschoolhero
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Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
So first you say the angle is being overbooked to compensate for Orton's inring and promo shortcomings. Now you say the overbooked angle is responsible for Orton's inring and promo shortcomings. I'm confused.

Also, Orton hasn't used a flying crossbody as a finish since 2002! I'd happily take his MASSIVE improvements in timing, selling and psychology over one vanilla aerial move and a Shaggy-from-Scooby-Doo haircut.



"And here...we...go."
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 5 days
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.92
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    So first you say the angle is being overbooked to compensate for Orton's inring and promo shortcomings. Now you say the overbooked angle is responsible for Orton's inring and promo shortcomings. I'm confused.


It's a vicious cycle, but it started with Orton's injury at Backlash. Orton broke his collarbone. While recovering, he made hot, hot, hot promos by calling everyone out and making threats about his return to the ring. He had swagger. He was over. The head-punt was over as a deadly move.

Then they gave him a posse, and it never caught fire. This is when his weaknesses were exacerbated by the new demands. He had to talk more but he was now desperate to legitimize his legacy. He was no longer talking about what he could do, but how he should be respected, and he lost his cool allure. Instead of a cool villain, he was a whiner. And the movements within Legacy (DiBiase's hiatus, Manu, Snuka) diluted any momentum they might have made by now.

And in this post-injury timespan, his ringwork slowed down. The "viper" style became his new demeanor. He's supposed to be calculating and deliberate, but he doesn't project the intensity required. He looks unsure and confused. Then he got into the business of the MacMahons, and now he was hiding behind IED. His edge was gone. And then Steph, and then Hunter and away we went.

The more they glued onto the title-shot angle, the more they diluted Orton. He was weaker and panicked and unsettled. And that hampered his ringwork. Any offense he goes on now is in desperation.

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Also, Orton hasn't used a flying crossbody as a finish since 2002! I'd happily take his MASSIVE improvements in timing, selling and psychology over one vanilla aerial move and a Shaggy-from-Scooby-Doo haircut.


He also dropped the Playmaker, which I think we all can be thankful for, but picked up the Garvin Stomp. Orton can sell, but he can't deliver. When he's on offense, the match is in the doldrums. He has good transition moves -- the rope DDT, the 3.0 backbreaker -- but when he's playing the WWE heel in control, he's punching and kicking. That's the main-event style. Because he now has to be either the slow viper or the wild-eyed RKOer, he has two speeds in the ring, and that's a downturn from what we saw before.

My hope is that when this feud is over, he can be released from the bad parameters of the angle. He can maybe go back to a more natural performance and be as entertaining as his current push suggests he ought to be. By trying so hard to make his character unlikable, they've made the wrestler unlikable. That's my point.

(edited by Matt Tracker on 23.3.09 1025)


"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
djp
Morcilla








Since: 16.2.07
From: 3rd Floor, NW window

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.18
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    The angle's not a mess at all. It's Hunter wanting revenge for Orton attacking his wife. The other stuff is week-by-week seasoning. Christ, you guys must've been REALLY put off by the original Austin/McMahon feud.
    MVP is my pick for the suitcase. Mark Henry ain't getting anywhere near it. Christian, maybe, but after his first month back I don't see it. I wouldn't have an issue with Shelton winning, however.

    (edited by oldschoolhero on 23.3.09 0119)


I figured Shelton's dropping of the US Title was a precursor to him winning MiTB. Kane would be a fun choice but he hasn't been a legit contender in a while. Shelton is ready for the next level, I think.
DJ FrostyFreeze
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

Since last post: 3 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.33
Read it and weep, fella


    Originally posted by djp
    I figured Shelton's dropping of the US Title was a precursor to him winning MiTB. Kane would be a fun choice but he hasn't been a legit contender in a while. Shelton is ready for the next level, I think.
I'd like to agree, but I just cant see it. You really have to be able to talk to get the "suitcase holder" thing going, and I dont know if a not-that-over heel can carry it either.



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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.18
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    The angle's not a mess at all. It's Hunter wanting revenge for Orton attacking his wife.


She seems fine, though.
The King of Keith
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Since: 4.11.02
From: Winchester, VA

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by oldschoolhero
      The angle's not a mess at all. It's Hunter wanting revenge for Orton attacking his wife.


    She seems fine, though.


Agreed, and that's why the whole logic here is screwed up. What are they fighting about now? Steph's obviously fine (as of last week) and HHH got his licks in at Orton's house. What's the big deal about seeing these two wrestle again if we've seen them fight a million times before the PPV?

MattTracker also had it right on about Orton. He's not calculating any more. He's not the hunter, he's the hunted, and strong heels should never be in that role. If he were calculating and heartless he wouldn't have fallen into HHH's plan. He would have wrestled someone else at WM. It's the worst buildup to a main event since Jericho ran over HHH's dog.



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geemoney
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Since: 26.1.03
From: Naples, FL

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.51
    Originally posted by The King of Keith
      Originally posted by JustinShapiro
        Originally posted by oldschoolhero
        The angle's not a mess at all. It's Hunter wanting revenge for Orton attacking his wife.


      She seems fine, though.


    Agreed, and that's why the whole logic here is screwed up. What are they fighting about now? Steph's obviously fine (as of last week) and HHH got his licks in at Orton's house. What's the big deal about seeing these two wrestle again if we've seen them fight a million times before the PPV?

    MattTracker also had it right on about Orton. He's not calculating any more. He's not the hunter, he's the hunted, and strong heels should never be in that role. If he were calculating and heartless he wouldn't have fallen into HHH's plan. He would have wrestled someone else at WM. It's the worst buildup to a main event since Jericho ran over HHH's dog.

You're right and I'd go further to say the roles should be reversed. Hunter should be the one coming at this from an anger standpoint, going from his gut and not thinking twice about anything, just trying to get at Orton. Yet he has out-smarted Orton at every step. Orton should be the one who is calm and calculating and has time and the thought-process to out-smart HHH. But no, we can't have that.
DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.33
Read it and weep, fella


    Originally posted by geemoney
    You're right and I'd go further to say the roles should be reversed. Hunter should be the one coming at this from an anger standpoint, going from his gut and not thinking twice about anything, just trying to get at Orton. Yet he has out-smarted Orton at every step. Orton should be the one who is calm and calculating and has time and the thought-process to out-smart HHH. But no, we can't have that.
Has someone who won their WM title shot at Royal Rumble ever gone on to lose said title match at WM? Cause this is where this is going, right?



CLICK OR DIE
SchippeWreck
Banger








Since: 26.3.03
From: Glendale, CA

Since last post: 1 day
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.79
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
      Originally posted by geemoney
      You're right and I'd go further to say the roles should be reversed. Hunter should be the one coming at this from an anger standpoint, going from his gut and not thinking twice about anything, just trying to get at Orton. Yet he has out-smarted Orton at every step. Orton should be the one who is calm and calculating and has time and the thought-process to out-smart HHH. But no, we can't have that.
    Has someone who won their WM title shot at Royal Rumble ever gone on to lose said title match at WM? Cause this is where this is going, right?

The Rock, Wrestlemania 2000, even though it technically wasn't HIS title shot anymore.

(deleted by SchippeWreck on 23.3.09 1150)

(resurrected by SchippeWreck on 23.3.09 1152)

(edited by SchippeWreck on 23.3.09 1152)


"It's magic! We don't need to explain it!"
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.26

Stephanie is on RAW tonight, so the chance for further harm to her person is possible, if not probably.





Mark Coale
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hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.34
    Originally posted by SchippeWreck
      Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
        Originally posted by geemoney
        You're right and I'd go further to say the roles should be reversed. Hunter should be the one coming at this from an anger standpoint, going from his gut and not thinking twice about anything, just trying to get at Orton. Yet he has out-smarted Orton at every step. Orton should be the one who is calm and calculating and has time and the thought-process to out-smart HHH. But no, we can't have that.
      Has someone who won their WM title shot at Royal Rumble ever gone on to lose said title match at WM? Cause this is where this is going, right?

    The Rock, Wrestlemania 2000, even though it technically wasn't HIS title shot anymore.


Shawn also lost to Diesel at Wrestlemania XI.



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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.79
Also, Cena won the RR last year and though his 'official' shot came at No Way Out, he lost the title match at Mania too.

Re: Steph being 'fine.' Well, she did just take an RKO. On the sliding scale of damage, the RKO is a lot less devastating than the head punt. Hell, Steph used to get Rock Bottomed and Stunnered all the time back in the day. Also, I'm not sure what her physical condition has to do with anything. If someone hit my wife and she was recovered five minutes later, I'd still be pissed off.



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Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 10 days
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.83
Is anyone really surprised that Hunter is outsmarting his opponent? He does that even when he's the heel.

I hated Orton long before it became fashionable to do so. He's obviously improved a lot, which isn't hard considering he really, truly was terrible, but overness is subjective. Anyone who is pushed like that is going to get a reaction. Sid was over; he still sucked. Orton is allowed to get heat on people no one else would be allowed to get heat on. There are very few people who get to manhandle the entire McMahon family inside of a month. It is not the head-in-the-sand sentiment of anyone to acknowledge the completely apparent fact that whatever "it" is, Orton doesn't have it. Cena has it. Even Batista has it. Jericho has it. I'm talking about some kind of inner charisma that translates to star power. Orton isn't even as charismatic as Buff Bagwell. Now, I'm not taking the view that he isn't a better worker than Buff or Sid, who I compared him to earlier, but he has no more presence than they did and I would argue less. Hey, I've always hated Shawn; Shawn has it. So it's not wilful ignorance here. And when you take someone who doesn't have it, make them lead a stable of rookies, book them to look weak, scared, and confused, you get this.

As far as in-ring, the slowing down of everyone's style to 1970s levels is one of the reasons the shows suck as badly as they do now. I just watched Savage/Steamboat again; I don't expect every match to be that good, but Jesus. They did basic moves, really fast and crisply, with lots of near falls. Maybe Vince should hire Macho to be a "producer"; I was shocked to read that script and learn that fucking IRS is putting matches together.



Quiet, Or Papa Spank!
BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.22
I'd also add that Helmsley doesn't seem to draw the interest that a guy in his spot probably should. He's a fine main eventer, but he's not a star like Austin, The Rock, HBK and even Cena are. Helmsley is just billed higher than he should be a lot of the time and it hurts the whole feel of the card.
Super Shane Spear
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.17
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    Maybe Vince should hire Macho to be a "producer"


C'mon now.

Orton only RKO'd her, and look what happened.
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