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The W - Pro Wrestling - WWE Network subscriber numbers (Page 2)
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Hobbes
Cotechino








Since: 10.12.01
From: Kelowna

Since last post: 33 days
Last activity: 12 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.78
The scary thing to think about is out of those 667,000 Network subscribers how many are some of the many, many people who make WrestleMania the only PPV they buy every year? When renewal time comes, no matter what hot PPV match the WWE puts on September, you could see a significant drop off in subscribers from casual fans who only bought the network because it was the same price as the WrestleMania they were going to order already.
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 12 days
Last activity: 1 day
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.14
    Originally posted by dMr
      Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
      I believe they include start-up expenses with the 1M number needed stats.


    I don't follow. What would that have to do with their "potential cannibalization" figures being (incorrectly IMO) not considered a function of subscriber numbers?




Sorry, I just meant that there may be other large factors they left off that PP in coming up with 1M as the minimum number needed.

I'm not sure how they get their "cannibalization" numbers either. It's such a grey area because nothing like this has ever been done before. The number of variables with regards to just who has access to PPV as opposed to strong enough bandwidth to even have a choice between the two options for example.

There's people outside of the US that are subscribed now instead of buying PPVs that are artificially inflating the current number of subscriptions they have as well.

I'm sure they have a system for figuring out how many PPV buys they're going to lose out and how many convert to network buys, but this is such a crazy thing they're trying that I don't know how any of it can be predicted accurately.
TheOldMan
Landjager








Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

Since last post: 60 days
Last activity: 57 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.43
Here's a suggestion to pass along to the home office in Stamford, CT...

If they worry about people dropping after 6 months, and they need to boost the domestic subscription number, why not something along the lines of "Buy WWE Network by SummerSlam and guarantee yourself a "founder's subscription discount" of $5/month for as long as you remain a member.

After SummerSlam, new accounts go up to $15/month. Same for those who want to drop each year to 'just sign on for WrestleMania season' in future years.

(Silver Lining? As fans, lower than desired subscription numbers means a Vince/WWE with his back to a wall, which in the past has been a good thing.)



dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 52 days
Last activity: 8 hours
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.98
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
    Sorry, I just meant that there may be other large factors they left off that PP in coming up with 1M as the minimum number needed.


Ah, gotcha. FWIW their 'net revenue' figures seem to assume roughly $10m of costs at 1m subscribers and $24m in costs at either two or three million subscribers (assuming it's based on everyone signing up on day one and paying 12 months' subs).


    I'm sure they have a system for figuring out how many PPV buys they're going to lose out and how many convert to network buys, but this is such a crazy thing they're trying that I don't know how any of it can be predicted accurately.


It shouldn't be that hard for them to come up with a methodology for cannibalization, but there would definitely be some educated guesswork in there. However they've done it, I can't see a realistic way where potential cannibalisation doesn't increase with more subscribers. Unless their methodology is says that lost PPV & DVD revenue peaking at a comparatively low number of subscribers I guess.

Either way, the fact that they're including cannibalization makes the "break-even" chat a bit misleading. My understanding is that they made the move to the Network model because they believed PPV and DVD sales were areas where revenue was going to be declining anyway if they didn't change. So expected revenue from PPVs and DVDs in years two and beyond would be lower regardless, and thus potential cannibalization is lower meaning the so-called break-even point would be lower in future years.


    There's people outside of the US that are subscribed now instead of buying PPVs that are artificially inflating the current number of subscriptions they have as well.

Good point. The pricing outwith the US will be interesting as well because PPVs cost less elsewhere. Wrestlemania was £17.95 (about $30) in the UK, for example.
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 8 hours
AIM:  
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.63
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    (Silver Lining? As fans, lower than desired subscription numbers means a Vince/WWE with his back to a wall, which in the past has been a good thing.)


That's certainly true, although not everything Vince has tried has been a successful (XFL, anyone?). I hope for the best though. Perhaps this just means the WWE goes out of their way to add more content. Like dump the entire Raw/Smackdown/Nitro/Thunder/ECW archives on there, maybe another season of Tough Enough, another reality show (that doesn't look as awful as Legends House) or maybe even an original TV show or movie through WWE Films.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 3 hours
Last activity: 1 hour
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.83
This format will eventually work, I just don't know how long the company can ride out the rough parts. The easiest solution, make a desirable product. Last night and even the NXT PPB are steps in the right direction.

It will be awful if this thing fails because the timing was just too early.
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 hour
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.51
    Originally posted by Quezzy
      Originally posted by TheOldMan
      (Silver Lining? As fans, lower than desired subscription numbers means a Vince/WWE with his back to a wall, which in the past has been a good thing.)


    That's certainly true, although not everything Vince has tried has been a successful (XFL, anyone?). I hope for the best though. Perhaps this just means the WWE goes out of their way to add more content. Like dump the entire Raw/Smackdown/Nitro/Thunder/ECW archives on there, maybe another season of Tough Enough, another reality show (that doesn't look as awful as Legends House) or maybe even an original TV show or movie through WWE Films.


Creating content is going to take a lot of money even if its just simple shit, you are looking at a price tag that wasn't there before. I think they will dumb all of their libraries including the Memphis one in this. Yet, I think most of us will blow through it at the four month point.

It won't be bad if it fails, it will be a cautionary tale and I doubt Vince will let the Network take the company down with it. I do think if they didn't fuck around with a lot of their storylines prior to Mania, they would have gotten more subscribers. They should have done a PPV or two before Mania to at least get word of mouth going that it does work. I think they will get to 800K prior to SummerSlam after that well...Are you ready for some football?



http://comicbookspotlight.wordpress.com/

Now reviewing Shield, Arrow and something called Winter Soldier.
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 12 days
Last activity: 1 day
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.14
I don't think the Network is going anywhere. 650K+ subscriptions isn't the million they say they want, but for a 1 month sign up period it's not bad.

That number will only go up for the next few months as positive word of mouth spreads. I also think a vast majority will simply forget to cancel at the end of the 6 month period.
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 13 min.
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.03
Well this is funny.

667,287 Network subscribers had access to Wrestlemania.

And "nearly 400,000" throwbacks still bought it on traditional PPV -- in the United States alone.

To compare, there were 662,000 domestic buys for Wrestlemania 29.
715,000 for 28.
825,000 for 23.
970,000 for 17.

So in the combination of regular buys and a "$60 for Wrestlemania, get five free" deal (which is, of course, a tad different), that quasi-means that Wrestlemania 30 did over a million in the United States. Granting that a respectable chunk of those proud American network subscribers are international playboys with a proxy and a made-up zip code.

NEW INDISPUTABLE FACTS:

- Daniel Bryan is the biggest draw in pro wrestling history

- potentially, the Network actually cannibalized more pirate streamers than regular PPV customers? or just people who bought it to watch the Bunkhouse Stampede and don't care about contemporary wrestling.
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 2 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.43
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    Well this is funny.


Wait. Am I thinking about this correctly (probably not)?

667K subscriptions x $60
+
400K buys x $60
=
~$64mm domestic gross revenue covering Mania and the next five PPVs (so far)


In 2013...

Mania 29: 662K buys x $60
+
Next five PPVs: 724K buys (wrestleview.com) x $45
=
~$72mm domestic gross revenue covering Mania and the next five PPVs.


That's it? Only a $8mm difference in gross domestic revenue? That's...really good, no? Because you're gonna get PPV buys on those next five Special Events. Well, not from DirecTV or Dish customers (ouch).

(edited by Mr Shh on 16.4.14 0017)


You askew my mirror. I askew yours.
Behold, my plunger.
Anagrams posted to http://twitter.com/​paragonSMASH
Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

Since last post: 31 days
Last activity: 21 hours
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.70
    Originally posted by Mr Shh
    Wait. Am I thinking about this correctly (probably not)?

    667K subscriptions x $60
    +
    400K buys x $60
    =
    ~$64mm domestic gross revenue covering Mania and the next five PPVs (so far)


    In 2013...

    Mania 29: 662K buys x $60
    +
    Next five PPVs: 724K buys (wrestleview.com) x $45
    =
    ~$72mm domestic gross revenue covering Mania and the next five PPVs.


    That's it? Only a $8mm difference in gross domestic revenue? That's...really good, no? Because you're gonna get PPV buys on those next five Special Events. Well, not from DirecTV or Dish customers (ouch).

    (edited by Mr Shh on 16.4.14 0017)


What's missing from these figures is the fees they pay to the cable companies. they do not get the full $60 or $45 from the PPVs. They probably get 40%/60% or less even. This should look like...

667000 x $60 = $40,020,000 for 6 months of PPVs

Now last years totals would be...


Wrestlemania 29: 662000 x $60 = $39,720,000
Extreme Rules: 137000 x $45 = 6,165,000
Payback: 108000 x $45 = 4,860,000
Money in the Bank: 151000 x x $45 = 6,795,000
Summerslam: 185000 x $45 = 8,325,000
Night of Champions: 92,000 x $45 = 4,140,000

$70,005,000 - 28,002,000-42,003,000 = $42,000,000 to $28,002,000 for 6 months of PPVs (last year)

...so I think they will probably end up making less money from this.





Forget it Josh... it's Cerebustown.
TheOldMan
Landjager








Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

Since last post: 60 days
Last activity: 57 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.43
Ugh, more numbers after spending all day Monday on taxes (heh)

It's not the gross, it's the net that appears to make the deal work.

Let's assume WWE gets 50% of the gross from PPV, and 80% from Network subscriptions. (And I have no idea how much they are paying for streaming services and online collections here, but I have to think it's a substantially lower rate.)

2013:

WM 29 - 662,000 buys x $60 x .5 WWE cut = $19.86 million
Other 5 - 673,000 buys x $45 x .5 cut = $15.14 million

(Total $35 million)

2014:

WM 30 - 667,000 subs. x $60 x .8 WWE cut = $32 million
WM US PPV - 400,000 buys x $60 x .5 cut = $12 million

(Total $44 million, plus pro-rate any new network subscriptions and add domestic PPV buys in the next 5 months or so.)

At least going by the numbers you guys are giving out here (and assuming a much smaller cut for the MLB streaming provider), this looks like a clear winner?

(Also unclear is the number of people outside the US using proxy to subscribe to the network.)



SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 7 min.
AIM:  
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.58
I don't know what math is or how to count numbers, but they look relatively big and encouraging even if they haven't made 1,000,000 subscribers yet.

Also, I enjoy the current WWE product and the WWE Network a lot, so I hope this is an indication that they are going to keep going in this direction.

It would be nice if they added a "Bookmark" feature on their streaming videos like Netflix has so I can pick up where I left off on whatever I'm watching (I'm at 2:20:00 on War Games '92 currently).
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 hour
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    Ugh, more numbers after spending all day Monday on taxes (heh)

    It's not the gross, it's the net that appears to make the deal work.

    Let's assume WWE gets 50% of the gross from PPV, and 80% from Network subscriptions. (And I have no idea how much they are paying for streaming services and online collections here, but I have to think it's a substantially lower rate.)

    2013:

    WM 29 - 662,000 buys x $60 x .5 WWE cut = $19.86 million
    Other 5 - 673,000 buys x $45 x .5 cut = $15.14 million

    (Total $35 million)

    2014:

    WM 30 - 667,000 subs. x $60 x .8 WWE cut = $32 million
    WM US PPV - 400,000 buys x $60 x .5 cut = $12 million

    (Total $44 million, plus pro-rate any new network subscriptions and add domestic PPV buys in the next 5 months or so.)

    At least going by the numbers you guys are giving out here (and assuming a much smaller cut for the MLB streaming provider), this looks like a clear winner?

    (Also unclear is the number of people outside the US using proxy to subscribe to the network.)


If I remember correctly they get 40% to 35% of the PPV cut. Which is one of the reasons they wanted to do the Network. Its closer to $7 a month goes to them a month goes to the network. So, adjust accordingly. I am not sure what that works out to be since its too early to do math which is why I deleted the original content of this post.

Part of the reason, I am going cross eyed is the numbers differen from Mr. Shh and Cerebus. Here is the numbers Mr. Shh is using.

* WWE Wrestlemania 29: 1,104,000 buys worldwide (662,000 domestic).

Domestic buys for Wrestlemania 29 were much lower last year in 2013 compared to the prior years (715,000 in 2012 and 679,000 in 2011).

* WWE Extreme Rules: 245,000 buys worldwide (137,000 domestic).

* WWE Payback: 198,000 buys worldwide (108,000 domestic).

* WWE Money in the Bank: 223,000 buys worldwide (169,000 domestic).

* WWE Summerslam: 332,000 buys worldwide (207,000 domestic).

* WWE Night of Champions: 196,000 buys worldwide (103,000 domestic).

You also have to add that some overseas users are part of the network as well.

(edited by lotjx on 16.4.14 0418)

(deleted by lotjx on 16.4.14 0453)

(resurrected by lotjx on 16.4.14 0616)

(edited by lotjx on 16.4.14 0619)

(edited by lotjx on 16.4.14 0646)

http://comicbookspotlight.wordpress.com/

Now reviewing Shield, Arrow and something called Winter Soldier.
Amos Cochran
Lap cheong








Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 60 days
Last activity: 58 days
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.01
Speaking from the UK, the vast majority of buys from here are *not* going to be people using proxies to get the Network. Sky is very much the primary delivery system for all things WWE over here, and the audience is still very child-oriented.
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 3 hours
Last activity: 1 hour
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.83
Th The pirate money they now draw has to be a huge win. I know I watched last year's on a terrible stream and chances are I would have done it again this year.

People I know that bought PPVs last year bought WM outright again for various reasons, being casual fans, aren't tech savy enough or just don't want their kids to have unlimited access.

Small sample I know, but if you are going out of your way to pirate then you are probably a pretty big fan, so capturing any of that money is huge. I don't really know how they convince the second group.
thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 13 hours
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.39
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    Let's assume WWE gets 50% of the gross from PPV, and 80% from Network subscriptions.

    ...

    At least going by the numbers you guys are giving out here (and assuming a much smaller cut for the MLB streaming provider), this looks like a clear winner?


FWIW: the last Observer mentioned WWE is estimating they're getting $8.75 per Network subscription in revenue, but was unsure how much of that was profit.

Also:

    Originally posted by WON
    In other words, WWE is budgeting 715,000 worldwide buys for WrestleMania this year from traditional means


They should pass that number easily.

(edited by thecubsfan on 16.4.14 0921)


thecubsfan.com - luchablog
Amos Cochran
Lap cheong








Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 60 days
Last activity: 58 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.01
Son of a bitch. They may actually pull this off.
LostInUbe
Linguica








Since: 19.11.02
From: Ube, Japan

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 1 day
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.53
In Japan (where the network won't be debuting anytime soon) you pay between 1500 - 2000 yen (15-20 dollars) per ppv (the big four are 20, everything else is 15) or you can get all 12 for 14000 yen (140 dollars). But you have to wait a day to get the show unsubbed. Shows with subtitles get aired about week after that.



http://lostinube.blogspot.com/


http://twitter.com/lostinube
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 12 days
Last activity: 1 day
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.21
    Originally posted by TheOldMan


    2013:

    WM 29 - 662,000 buys x $60 x .5 WWE cut = $19.86 million
    Other 5 - 673,000 buys x $45 x .5 cut = $15.14 million

    (Total $35 million)

    2014:

    WM 30 - 667,000 subs. x $60 x .8 WWE cut = $32 million
    WM US PPV - 400,000 buys x $60 x .5 cut = $12 million

    (Total $44 million, plus pro-rate any new network subscriptions and add domestic PPV buys in the next 5 months or so.)



I think it might be slightly better than that as well, since the 662K buys of WM29 were US and Canada, but the 400K number from this year is US alone.

I have no idea how many Canadian buys that would get added though to make up the difference. 40k?
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