Originally posted by KevintripodWhy do I have a feeling that there are going to be people that will owe Lotx an apology on his superkick prediction.
Nah. I guess he could do it accidentally and recreate SummerSlam 1997, but Shawn Michaels isn't turning heel.
I apologize before God and country to the-w.com user lotjx, one of the preeminent and most rational wrestling analysts of this community. Dead to rights, stone cold nailed it.
I think it's about 85-15 though, because Shawn Michaels didn't turn heel. BUT he didn't do it accidentally. He was compelled to "save" his beloved Triple H after Daniel Bryan knocked out Hunter with the knee. Then he counted anyway! What a dick.
So. - Daniel Bryan screwed out of the WWE title by the referee, a shocking turn of events, leaving them exactly where they left off on night 1 of this angle.
- so why couldn't Orton go over at Battleground then? I guess to keep them from beating each other too much.
- Hell in a Cell prostituted as convoluted screwjob central after being set up as the ultimate odds-evening destination of shenanigan-free justice for the second year in a row.
- sets up Daniel Bryan vs. Triple H and Daniel Bryan vs. Shawn Michaels matches? the former, probably. the latter, I'm skeptical.
- if they're going to do another Bryan/Orton match at Survivor Series -- and at this point they might flip it and do Show/Orton and Bryan/HHH -- what stipulation is there to go to after HIAC? technically, there are many, because HIAC doesn't really mean anything special anymore. (obligatory "do Wargames.")
I don't resent this because it's "unfair" to Daniel Bryan, who has been getting a very protected superman push under everyone noses the whole time it's been going on. I resent it because it doesn't really make sense from point A to B to C to D and none of the screwy PPV finishes seem to build on each other.
John Cena came back and won the World Title. No Sandow cash-in. Cena didn't look like he'd stepped out of his death bed or anything. He sold his arm but he did most everything he usually does. They had a good match. Ending Del Rio's interminable reign is fine by me; between the fall 2011 run and the endless Sheamus challenges, it feels like he's been champion for 2 straight years, a JBL-esque run. But ending a PPV with Cena and Orton as the champions is far too brazen a bitter tear-eliciter to try to offer with a straight face in 2013.
At least Punk/Heyman appears to be over. Punk beat Ryback clean and then struck Paul with a stick atop the Cell. It wasn't good.
For the second straight show, the Rhodes and Shield, with special guest stars the Usos, stole the show. (Also for the third straight time, they couldn't get Bryan/Orton started before 10:25.) Not as dramatic as the title change on Raw, but great action, including Rollins taking a superplex to the floor onto all the catchers.
Due to Axel's injury, Big E got a U.S. title shot against Dean Ambrose. Ambrose got counted out on purpose, which I'm going to guess was the intended finish for E/Axel anyway (for now) since it was only on the pre-show.
Brie shouted BRIE MODE before accidentally walloping Nikki with her running knee, that was pretty cool.
It was a better show in-ring than the last couple, no thanks to another unadvertised Great Khali match. Summer Rae is terrific though. She's like Kelly Kelly if Kelly had the slightest bit of charisma.
THAT'S GOTTA BE KANE. 16 years later, the tombstone didn't work out so well this time.
Match results 1. go to Wikipedia 2. or read it later 3. in this thread
So, yeah, we're kind of right where we were at the end of Summerslam, aren't we?
At least we're finally through the interminable post-Summerslam PPV line-up, and we can hopefully see some real builds made to some real matches at Survivor Series, as opposed to them being caught in a loop of screwy DB/Orton finishes.
And hopefully CM Punk has finally hit Paul Heyman enough times to want to do something else now!
I'm sure there have been some good-to-very good matches on the last three pay-per-views, but it really feels like all of them were a waste of time and money.
At least Orton's cool side plates are back. He really should have been champion this whole time. Not to over-fantasy book it, but a lengthier run for Orton would have helped build the story more than a bunch of meaningless title switches (including a ripoff non-finish at the last PPV) in the meantime.
They could have done Orton/Bryan at NOC ending in a DQ win for Bryan, Orton/Show vs Bryan/someone or in a handicap match at Battleground, and then done what they did tonight with Orton going over to end all challenges from Bryan so he can do the inevitable feud with Big Show.
Anyway, I feel like everyone is exhausted from both Punk/Heyman and Bryan/Orton by now that it doesn't even really matter who came out on top. We need to move on already.
Originally posted by JustinShapiro I apologize before God and country to the-w.com user lotjx, one of the preeminent and most rational wrestling analysts of this community. Dead to rights, stone cold nailed it.
Originally posted by JustinShapiroSo. - Daniel Bryan screwed out of the WWE title by the referee, a shocking turn of events, leaving them exactly where they left off on night 1 of this angle.
- so why couldn't Orton go over at Battleground then? I guess to keep them from beating each other too much.
Man, is this ever a prime reason for why they need to stop shoehorning three PPV's into September/October. What a complete waste of time this entire main event angle was. And it was only structured in this way because they needed material to fill three PPV's with.
You only have so much time to pull the trigger on someone to make them into a true superstar before turning into a Lex Luger-style choker. The window on Bryan is pretty much closed and that's a damn shame. After everything that's happened in the last few months and after that promo last Monday where Hunter all but labeled Bryan as a marginal player that can't get the job done, you can't have Bryan not get the job done! Screwjob or not, the result validates everything Hunter said. That makes Daniel Bryan into a loser. I'm sure John Cena must be thrilled to see all of the effort he put into making Bryan legit go down the drain.
Speaking of Cena, that was about the most straightforward (translation: boring) outcome possible.
So now we have the two world champions from 2009 to complement the top angle of The McMahon-Helmsley Era from 1999. Somebody wake me when we reach 2013.
(edited by It's False on 27.10.13 2303)
"Playing guitars. It's hard to sing while playing...guitars."
Like all PPV's, I'll wait for after RAW to formulate a long-term view on this.
Two ways this might break. And you guessed it, speculation time (TM);
1) There's enough beef here to last until the Rumble. Easily. The whole "B+ player" narrative would certainly make for a pleasant coast-to-coast Rumble moment.
2) They may have stumbled across something with Axel's injury. Big E just had a match with Ambrose, meaning he can slide into things. Like say, a tag team match.
Something to keep in mind with all of this of course is the parallels between now and the Attitude Era, which they're obviously trying to mimic the archetypes.
Bryan = Foley, just more protected in his push. And yes, he's been uber protected, plus got a shot in on Triple H. But make no mistake; they're making him *earn* that WWE title reign.
Which is why I think they're waiting for the big moment. Survivor Series isn't that moment though, I don't think.
Originally posted by It's FalseYou only have so much time to pull the trigger on someone to make them into a true superstar before turning into a Lex Luger-style choker. The window on Bryan is pretty much closed and that's a damn shame.
Benoit and Eddie both proved otherwise. So did Mick. You know what it takes to overcome the label? WIN in the big moment. They are building up to Bryan's moment, I still think.
(edited by El Nastio on 28.10.13 0215) "You can't put a price on integrity"
I don't believe so much in the "small window" theory. More than ever WWE booking is all about forgetting past performances and focus on the NOW! If they build you up like you're a big deal now, the fans buy into it (happened several times to Bryan himself and Cody Rhodes. Even Ryback)
What bothers me is that they had the chance to do something fresh with Cena gone and while it looked good the first few weeks, it turned out to be just another evil regime after all. The same thing happened with the summer of Punk. It's WWE's fear to try new territory because the old one still works well enough for them.
Legit LOL through this entire thread for a good ten minutes including getting out of my seat while cackling like a mad man. Thank you, all especially you, HBK, you backstabbing fuck, I know you had it in you, because it really never left you. I don't see Bryan winning the belt back at Survivor Series as much as I think he will be in the Survivor Series match with the Rhodes Brothers and Punk against The New Corporation. Cena/Orton must be penciled in for the Rumble or TLC to give us the Undisputed champ going into Wrestleman 30 or not.
No need to podcast about this and the wife has given up on Sleepy Hollow, so you all escape that torture.
(edited by lotjx on 28.10.13 0844) The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.
Originally posted by El Nastio Benoit and Eddie both proved otherwise. So did Mick. You know what it takes to overcome the label? WIN in the big moment. They are building up to Bryan's moment, I still think.
Not to sound like Triple H...but none of those guys were ever "the guy". Perhaps you can make the case for Eddie, since he was positioned to carry Smackdown as its top face for at least a short time, but Benoit's flirtation with mains ended as soon as he stopped working with Hunter and Shawn, and it only resumed when it was clear his role was to mint new star Randall Keith Orton. He never got a sniff of main events ever again, unless you count the revived ECW, which no sensible person does. Perhaps he would have if he hadn't gone and done...that stuff, but we'll never know now.
Foley was and is beloved, but he was still a utility player whose main job was to put guys over and get them ready for the top programs. In this process he got himself some main events, and his title win over the Rock in late '98 is one of the epic-est of epic moments, but remember whose run-in got him that title win? Austin's, of course. Even that he didn't do on his own. He was never portrayed as a legit top hand.
The difference with Bryan is we were on cusp of minting him as a real top guy. Not a talented sometimes main eventer but a legitimate permanent top star. Chances like that really are rare. Maybe it's too late.
Not sure why they didn't just hand Randy the belt right after they stripped Bryan of the title. (And perhaps for some nuclear heat, struck DB's win at Summerslam and NOC from the record, along with Randy's loss)
As it is, the whole 'abeyance' (god I love that word) thing feels like it was devised simply to fill the 3 PPV's in 6 weeks nonsense.
Again, I think DB's big moment will come at Wrestle Mania, where he'll *win* the title (as opposed to defending it, as going in as champion is the wrong way round if you really want him to have his big moment)
Rock's win at Backlash 2000 wouldn't have had nearly the same intensity if he'd had gone in as defending champion.
It's as if WWE genuinely feels that DB isnt the guy to carry the company. But at the same time, they also cant deny how freaking over he is with the fans (or any of the money he's making them in t-shirts, etc). So they've decided to sort of give the fans the next best thing: Push him at the very tippy-top of the WWE title scene but without ever actually giving him the WWE title for any significant amount of time. If this is the case, this is a very dumb line of thinking, btw. Would it kill them to make DB the transitional champ between Cena and whoever Cena beats to get his belt back?
I see everyone predicting that his BIG HUGE MOMENT will come at some future PPV "when it matters", but why couldnt it "matter" at SummerSlam? If it didnt matter enough then, why will it matter more at Survivor Series, or some lesser PPV in December? Because of the whole chase thing? Let's talk about that.
I understand how the chase works in wrestling: Dont give the fans what they want right away. Instead, string them along for awhile to build up anticipation for when the moment finally comes, when the heel finally gets his comeuppance and the face finally gets the victory/title/revenge/whatever, and hopefully get the faces/heels in the angle even more over in the process. I get it. But as others have suggested above, there comes a time when watching the face "fail" over and over hurts him. I'm not sure if DB has been hurt by all of this "failing" yet ("failing" is in quotes because all of his losses in the last couple months have been highly-protected screwy losses, of course), but I do think they have already missed the Prime Point of Comeuppance & Vindication by a couple of PPVs. And seeing as how the Royal Rumble and WrestleMania are both several months away, I have to assume The Authority will have run out of shennanigans by then, right? And if you think 2 months of "failing" has hurt DB now, imagine watching him fail for 3-5 more months until RR or WM.
I guess my point is that I hate "authority figures screwing the babyface" angles.
I agree, they have also elevated the title itself in this fued. The fued is about the title, not about anything else. The title is what Goldberg is after. The fans are behind Bill now, just hoping for a title change. Eager for the change.