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The W - Pro Wrestling - WWE Goes Beyond Unpleasant (Page 2)
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Spaceman Spiff
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Since: 2.1.02
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    I want to know why everyone is so damn certain Rey's going to loose to Orton?

Because every "news" site says the plan is Angle/Orton at Wrestlemania. Rey is a better story, but Orton is the golden child of the company. Furthermore, he was supposedly scheduled to ME the last 2 WM's, so the company feels they "owe" him a WM ME spot.



Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
Here's the thing about Orton winning, though.....if it's Orton/Angle and HHH/Cena as the two main events, then that's two world title matches where the heel has to win for the storyline to make logical sense. There is no way on this earth that Wrestlemania will end with TWO heels winning the titles, or else WWE will risk a fan riot. This is why I still think it'll be an Angle/Rey/Orton three-way dance.



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Since: 17.11.02

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.97
Picture if you will, the ultimate slap to the face of all you fans out here... What would you do if Vickie Guerrero helps Randy Orton win?

Think about it. The Guerrero name it synonymous with wrestling, what makes you think the family ISN'T up to date with what's happening storyline wise with the company. The last 'big feud' Eddie had was other Rey's son really being his son. Vince is a sick man and so are the writers.

I dno't know... it COULD happen.
CRZ
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.06
Going all the way back to post #1, this entire thread has a lot of mind reading, assumption and speculation - but sadly, not so many facts.

I'm not going to pick a side of the fence yet, because I'm still inclined to wait-n-see - Orton hasn't won YET, and the Guerreros haven't sat at ringside YET - but for now I WILL offer that one of the greatest tributes you can pay a man is to never forget him, and it's JUST possible someone somewhere has that in mind while they're keeping Eddie's name Out There.

(Anticipating the counterargument, yes, ironically enough "The road to hell IS paved with Good Intentions.")



CRZ
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.40
    Originally posted by Derrick
    The real question is what does "The lovely Mrs. Tracker" think of this situation?


She's pretty pragmatic about it. If the story sells more Eddie t-shirts, she assumes that gives more money to the family. We have no idea if that's how it works, but it's a pleasant notion that we share when she's not licking the TV whenever Angle appears. The biggest impact for her has been the complete erasure of Kerwin White, a gimmick she utterly despised.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.53
    Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
    They didn't make a storyline out of the death of Owen Hart. Of course, that was back when the WWF writing was very good and didn't need that type of thing.

    (edited by The 5th Horseman on 11.2.06 1313)


Oh yeah. The writing was just brilliant in those days. Nothing offensive at all about crotch chops, Mark Henry getting fellated by Trannies, the Undertaker crucifying Austin, dX mock-raping Stephanie McMahon, and the removal of Val Venis peepee via Katana blade.

Let's face it, WWE was never exactly high art. And I can't say this entirely surprises me, because they already did something similar with Road Warrior Hawk. I'm not sure if anyone remembers MNM challenging the Legion of Doom to a match when Animal was involved with them, only to stop, and say, "Oh wait, we can't face the Legion of Doom...cuz his partners DEAD." And then laughing hysterically. This is pretty much just another level of that kind of manipulation.

    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
    It has nothing to do with the WWE "surprising" us. If they did this all the time I would still be offended. The man died for this sport and for this company because they were all too willing to turn a blind eye to his current medical problems. He thought all he could do was wrestle and they had no problem withholding any kind of Commissioner or G.M. job that would let him stay employeed, but not make them any money through PPV buys. Now they just can't wait to cash in a bigger buyrate by having the heel claiming that he's in hell (remember, in WWE-land, whoever wins the blowoff match was right), and basing their only major storyline going into Wrestlemania around his death.


    Tribal Prophet


How do you know any of that? How do you know Eddie went to them and asked for GM or Commissioner role, and they said, no Eddie, we want you to wrestle until you die please. How can you possibly know that. Everyone knew Eddie was in pain, but no one was aware of his heart problems, and those are what killed him. It's an ugly situation, no doubt, but it's not like it is any kind of a guarantee that Eddie would still be alive if he'd retired a year ago. Maybe he could have delayed the inevitable, but barring a heart transplant nothing that was within WWE's ability to alter could have saved him.

I do find this angle offensive, but I'd be willing to bet large sums of money that most of the people who are up in arms about this are still going to watch. And Vince knows that. If Wrestlemania shapes up to look good, I'll get it, offended or not. But if Orton/Angle, Rey/Booker, Cena/HHH, Edge/Foley, and Michaels/McMahon are the matches on this show---I'll have to pass.

I mean, God...At least write a letter and mail it to them. A real letter, not an e-mail. Your voice can be heard. Internet complaints aren't going to get you anywhere.



It hurts to be a wrestling fan.
Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.94
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Here's the thing about Orton winning, though.....if it's Orton/Angle and HHH/Cena as the two main events, then that's two world title matches where the heel has to win for the storyline to make logical sense. There is no way on this earth that Wrestlemania will end with TWO heels winning the titles, or else WWE will risk a fan riot. This is why I still think it'll be an Angle/Rey/Orton three-way dance.


Interesting point. While I don't think that there would exactly be a riot, it would be a very tough sell to have two heel wins in the Mania title matches.

Then again, if they want Orton to win, it wouldn't exactly be the most difficult thing in the world to do a double turn with Cena and HHH.
BigDaddyLoco
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.96
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Going all the way back to post #1, this entire thread has a lot of mind reading, assumption and speculation - but sadly, not so many facts.

    I'm not going to pick a side of the fence yet, because I'm still inclined to wait-n-see - Orton hasn't won YET, and the Guerreros haven't sat at ringside YET - but for now I WILL offer that one of the greatest tributes you can pay a man is to never forget him, and it's JUST possible someone somewhere has that in mind while they're keeping Eddie's name Out There.

    (Anticipating the counterargument, yes, ironically enough "The road to hell IS paved with Good Intentions.")


I've got no counterargument, but you are giving some people with a very shady track record a lot of slack here.



The 5th Horseman
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Since: 23.10.02
From: Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

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#29 Posted on
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
      Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
      They didn't make a storyline out of the death of Owen Hart. Of course, that was back when the WWF writing was very good and didn't need that type of thing.

      (edited by The 5th Horseman on 11.2.06 1313)


    Oh yeah. The writing was just brilliant in those days. Nothing offensive at all about crotch chops, Mark Henry getting fellated by Trannies, the Undertaker crucifying Austin, dX mock-raping Stephanie McMahon, and the removal of Val Venis peepee via Katana blade.

I don't see any connection between the things you listed and a current wrestler using a wrestler that died just a couple of months ago for cheap heat by mocking his death and claiming he is in hell. I'm not easily offended, but that does it.

I don't see anything offensive about crotch chops. I thought it was funny when Mark Henry was tricked into his "sexual relations" with the tranny. The Undertaker crucifying Austin didn't bother me at all. The Val Venis "choppy his pee pee" storyline was silly but didn't offend me. And, I don't remember DX mock raping Stephanie, although I do remember them kidnapping her. I would think a mock rape would be going too far, but still not the same as mocking the recent death of someone. At least it would be done with the full cooperation of Stephanie and done within the context of her character on the show. Eddie's death is real and not just his character, like Al Wilson's was.

Either way, my only point with the comment was about the laziness and ineptness of the current writers in WWE compared to the good writing of the past. That's just my opinion. If you disagree, that's fine.
spf
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
      Originally posted by Big Bad
      Here's the thing about Orton winning, though.....if it's Orton/Angle and HHH/Cena as the two main events, then that's two world title matches where the heel has to win for the storyline to make logical sense. There is no way on this earth that Wrestlemania will end with TWO heels winning the titles, or else WWE will risk a fan riot. This is why I still think it'll be an Angle/Rey/Orton three-way dance.


    Interesting point. While I don't think that there would exactly be a riot, it would be a very tough sell to have two heel wins in the Mania title matches.

    Then again, if they want Orton to win, it wouldn't exactly be the most difficult thing in the world to do a double turn with Cena and HHH.

WM not only is always full of smarks, but it is in Chicago which, though not nearly as bizarro-world like as Canada, has a long track record of cheering for heels. Cena will get booed heartily at WM. HHH winning will provide a huge face pop.
dwaters
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Since: 16.10.02
From: Connecticut

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.96
If they're going to be this classless about Eddie's death, why not go all the way?
Have the ghost of Eddie Guerrero battle the ghost of Curt Hennig at Wrestlemania. Just have a ref in an empty ring walk around pointing at air and dropping down for quick two counts.
When the "action" goes outside the ring he can follow them. John Cena on guest commentary could call it a true "You can't see me" match. The ref could do a three count and raise an invisible hand. Lillian could announce, "Your winner..." then have to ask the ref before declaring the name.
Of course the natural choice for celebrity Wrestlemania guest referee would have to be Haley Joel Osment, because "He sees dead people" as Lawler would cry out several times during the event.

OK, so I'm bored.
Hey, it's any not worse than Undertaker vs. Undertaker or blindfold Jake Roberts feeling around for blindfolded Rick Martel.

If they are pretending to be a sport with refs, time limits, wins and losses they should act a little like a sport.
You don't see Nascar announcers blaming Tony Stewart going off the track on the "ghost" of Dale Earnhardt.
You don't see an entire Red Sox fanbase blaming their lack of postseason success on the "ghost" of Babe Ruth.
Oh wait, nevermind.... that one actually happened...



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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.40
    Originally posted by dwaters
    You don't see Nascar announcers blaming Tony Stewart going off the track on the "ghost" of Dale Earnhardt.


Maybe not that, but Earnhardt is marketed just as heavily after his death than before. I see more stickers of a winged 3 on cars than the older wingless 3 sticker. You also can catch plenty of "God needed a driver" t-shirts and stickers. The NY Times Sunday edition had a half-page article on the anniversary of his death and his place in racing.

Dale may be the closest recent parallel to the marketing exploitation of Eddie that some perceive.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.25
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    Dale may be the closest recent parallel to the marketing exploitation of Eddie that some perceive.


Is it "marketing exploitation" if there is a legitimate demand by consumers for Dale Earnhardt (or Eddy, for that matter) memorabilia? It's not like Eddy's family is just putting out Eddy Death Trinkets for people to buy, and even if they did, if people wanted to buy them, what's the big deal about that?

(Dale Earnhardt owned the rights to his name and signature, so DEI are the ones putting that stuff out, not NASCAR, so comparing what WWE does with Eddy's with that particular situation is not completely comparing apples to apples.)

If every time somebody wrecked in Turn 3 Benny Parsons said something to the effect of "Turn 3, that's Dale wrecking you from the grave" I'm pretty sure that NASCAR fans would burn his house down.



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Some new quotes in your sig.
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Derrick
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Since: 10.9.05
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.35
First off all why are we comparing a "sport" with entertainment to begin with. I would compare Eddie's death more with the exploitation of Kurt Cobain after his death more so than Dale. In the entertainment buisness it is normal and excepted to use the dead for sales and has been so for years, Elvis anyone? Just take a look at how many albums 2 Pac has release since he has been dead. This is a normal thing in american culture and being dead is one of the best ways to boost your popularity.



"They're all losers, either by birth or by choice." - Jack Parkman (Major League 2)
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.24
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Dale may be the closest recent parallel to the marketing exploitation of Eddie that some perceive.


    Is it "marketing exploitation" if there is a legitimate demand by consumers for Dale Earnhardt (or Eddy, for that matter) memorabilia? It's not like Eddy's family is just putting out Eddy Death Trinkets for people to buy, and even if they did, if people wanted to buy them, what's the big deal about that?


That's why I said "that some perceive." I'm one who thinks the recent use of Eddy is both fair and logical. Selling Eddy merchandise is a great way to let fans show their support. I don't condemn either the Dale or Eddy swag.

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    If every time somebody wrecked in Turn 3 Benny Parsons said something to the effect of "Turn 3, that's Dale wrecking you from the grave" I'm pretty sure that NASCAR fans would burn his house down.


Is the WWE doing that? Are they ascribing heel wrestler bloopers to Eddy nudging them from beyond? If they do this for Rey, well, that's no different than reporters asking Dale Jr. if his dad's spirit helped him win races. That notion is a little too sentimental for my tastes, but not to an offensive degree.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
JayJayDean
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.25
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      If every time somebody wrecked in Turn 3 Benny Parsons said something to the effect of "Turn 3, that's Dale wrecking you from the grave" I'm pretty sure that NASCAR fans would burn his house down.


    Is the WWE doing that? Are they ascribing heel wrestler bloopers to Eddy nudging them from beyond? If they do this for Rey, well, that's no different than reporters asking Dale Jr. if his dad's spirit helped him win races. That notion is a little too sentimental for my tastes, but not to an offensive degree.


Ah, I was just trying to come up with an example of how they could keep throwing Dale's name out there in a way people could find offensive, NOT necessarily come up with a like comparison. Carry on.

(Although, a Kurt Busch-"your Dad's in HELL"-promo on Dale Jr., well, I'd pay to see the aftermath of something like that...)



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Some new quotes in your sig.
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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
    Originally posted by M. Tracker
    Dale may be the closest recent parallel to the marketing exploitation of Eddie that some perceive. ... I'm one who thinks the recent use of Eddy is both fair and logical. Selling Eddy merchandise is a great way to let fans show their support.


No one would be outraged if they were just selling RIP Eddie memorabilia, although it still might raise some eyebrows if his merchandise was pushed as over the top shamelessly as it his name his been. But they're appropriating someone's real life death to try to get a heel over. The fans are "allowed to show their support" by, go figure, buying WWE PPVs and accepting Randy Orton as a main event heel. A perceived marketing exploitation to say the least. I guess that's fair and logical in one of those contracts with the devil where he owns your soul.

    Originally posted by derrick
    This is a normal thing in american culture and being dead is one of the best ways to boost your popularity.


Right, but it's not a normal thing to use that death to crassly boost a fictional someone else's unpopularity.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.24
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    But they're appropriating someone's real life death to try to get a heel over. The fans are "allowed to show their support" by, go figure, buying WWE PPVs and accepting Randy Orton as a main event heel. A perceived marketing exploitation to say the least. I guess that's fair and logical in one of those contracts with the devil where he owns your soul.


This gets into the crux of the 'character vs performer' perception. If we say that Randy Orton is REALLY saying that Eddie the man is in hell, then we have to believe he (the performer) believes that. If we say Randy's simply saying that in character, then he's referring to Eddie the character.

This would be a lot easier if the man and the character had different names.

Even though the WWE tried to blur reality and fiction by talking up Eddy's addiction and his long-standing relationship with Rey, we still had a distinction. We still knew Dominic was Rey's kid. We still knew this born-again man was pretending to lie, cheat, and steal. And if we buy the PPV to watch Randy and Rey put on a show, this doesn't mean we're agreeing with Orton's character saying Eddie's in hell. Why couldn't we buy it to see Rey punish Orton for saying such a thing?

Or, to use your argument, fans can buy Eddie shirts and refuse to buy the PPV. Both goals are met: They show their support of Eddie and they reject an Orton storyline. Either way, the WWE makes some money, but Orton doesn't because no one is buying his shirt.




"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
The 5th Horseman
Kolbasz








Since: 23.10.02
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#39 Posted on
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    If we say Randy's simply saying that in character, then he's referring to Eddie the character.

NO WAY can I buy that they are only referring to Eddie Guerrero the character rather than the person. Rey Misterio the character wouldn't be so emotional about Eddie Guerrero the character since they just had a long feud a few months back where they absolutely hated each other, so it is obviously about Eddie Guerrero the person and his relationship with Rey the person.

It's just cheap, tasteless, and unnecessary, IMHO.

(edited by The 5th Horseman on 13.2.06 1709)
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
The Guerrero family has been in the business forever. I really doubt Vicky Guererro is up in arms. She knows Randy Orton was one of Eddy's best friends, she knows that Vince McMahon gave Eddy chance after chance to turn his life around and then made him champion when he did.

Reading Terry Funk's book reminded me that 'distateful' gimmicks aren't just a trademark of VKM. It's one every promoter has done for 100 hours to pop a house. Simple as that.

The WWE firmly believes they should not be held to any different standard than any other TV show. When Nancy Marchand died on the Sopranoes and they referenced her character, they called her a mean, nasty bitch. It's just playing a role.

I don't agree exactly, but to think that the McMahons are just immoral and corrupt and ENJOY mocking someone's death is patently ridiculous.

The Guerrero's aren't being blackmailed to appear.

Also, everyone says that Orton couldn't have refused b/c he would have been punished or lost his job.

Is there any evidence of a top star ever bucking a gimmick and then being punished? Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin did it all the time.

If Orton was truly bothered by it, he wouldn't have done it.

They wouldn't have fired the Golden Boy, that's silly. They may have lost confidence in him as a 'company man', but he wouldn't have lost his spot, that.

Also, we can very likely assume that Rey is going to beat Orton for the belt at some point, so the fact that Orton goes over at NWO is probably irrelevant in their mind to the long term plan.


I'm saying all this, and I haven't cared enough to watch SD the last two weeks. I really have no desire to see this angle. Spending a Friday watching a dead man be used to get a heel (even a heel I'm a fan of) over isn't entertaining.

But this isn't some sick plot to desecrate Eddy. It's just a dumb gimmick, one of the 30 a year in this shady, shady sport.

Hell, this is REALLY not at bad as Angle mocking the troops.

Those guys have ZERO connection to wrestling.

That's far more insulting, but y'know Angle is a good wrestler and Orton is not, so it's okay.
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