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28.8.14 2034
The W - Pro Wrestling - Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame: Class of 2012
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KJames199
Scrapple
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Since: 10.12.01
From: #yqr

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.43
Is this a thing we usually discuss here?

This year's inductees:
  • John Cena
  • Captain Lou Albano
  • Mick McManus
  • Dr. Alfonso Morales
  • Hans Schmidt
  • Gus Sonnenberg
Cena seems like as much of a no-brainer as we're liable to get, though I can understand not wanting to vote for someone who's still active, or who - while the top star - feels (IMO) like much less of a star than Austin or Rock.

Trivia - he's the first first-ballot Hall of Famer since The Rock in 2007.

I think I'm too young to have seen Albano at his peak. When I came around, he was managing the British Bulldogs, except when he wasn't (which was most of the time). Beyond that, I've seen him... I dunno, put boots on the Headshrinkers? That didn't work.

No opinion on the other four. I know very little about them and haven't even read their Observer bios yet.

Close calls: Dr. Wagner Sr and Kensuke Sasaki came one vote away from getting in, Jesse Ventura and Carlos Colon missed by two, and Enrique Torres missed by four.

Not-so-close calls (sticking to modern-era guys): Sting got 38%, Edge got 37% (in an aside on the Observer board, Meltzer seemed to hint he was disappointed that Edge wasn't going in), 24% for Brock Lesnar, 22% for Curt Hennig, 15% for Owen Hart, 13% for Batista. Kane and Jeff Hardy were dropped from the ballot entirely.

There were way more names on the ballot so if you're curious about anyone specific, let me know and I'll see what I can dig up. I'm looking for a way to procrastinate my way out of writing concert reviews for one more day.
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Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 396 days
Last activity: 356 days
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21
Because I was curious what the requirements are in light of John Cena's selection, wikipedia says:


    Inductees must have at least 15 years of experience in the wrestling business or be over 35 years old and have 10 years of experience. To gain membership in the hall, potential inductees must receive 60% support on the ballots from their geographic region.

Cena is now 35 years old and debuted in WWE in 2002.
Someone has already updated the page about the 2012 inductees, and they say:
* Mick McManus is a British wrestler born in either 1921 or 1928 (wikipedia and the Pro Wrestling wiki disagree). The Pro Wrestling wiki says he was the greatest heel in British wrestling history.
* Alfonso Morales has been a commentator for both AAA and CMLL. He co-wrote a book called Lucha Libre: Masked Superstars of Mexican Wrestling (The W at Amazon).
* Hans Schmidt was a Canadian wrestler who was active from 1949 to 1976, popular in Chicago, Milwaukee, and Toronto. He was one of the first to popularize the foreign heel gimmick. He has previously been selected to the Canadian Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame and the Slam! Wrestling Canadian Hall of Fame.
* Gus Sonnenberg was a professional football player who started wrestling while a member of the Providence Steam Rollers in 1928. He won the World Heavyweight Championship from Ed "Strangler" Lewis in 1929. He wrestled until joining the Navy in 1942. He died of leukemia two years later, at the age of 46. He was selected to the Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame (located in Amsterdam, NY) in 2007.
edit: replaced link with link of second edition of book, which is actually available.

(edited by Mr. Boffo on 7.11.12 2305)
graves9
Landjager








Since: 19.2.10
From: Brooklyn NY

Since last post: 3 hours
Last activity: 2 hours
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.11
I can't believe Sting is not in the Observer Hall of Fame. He has been a huge star for twenty plus years, has had great matches and moments was a big draw in his prime and drew huge buyrates and ratings as the top babyface in the heyday of WCW. I'm not sure what the reason is that he's not in.

(edited by graves9 on 8.11.12 1232)

(edited by graves9 on 8.11.12 1233)

(edited by graves9 on 8.11.12 1234)
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 16 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by graves9
    I can't believe Sting is not in the Observer Hall of Fame. He has been a huge star for twenty plus years, has had great matches and moments was a big draw in his prime and drew huge buyrates and ratings as the top babyface in the heyday of WCW. I'm not sure what the reason is that he's not in.
Others will respond a little fuller and with more support, but basically these are the bullet points:

-not a huge star for twenty plus years.
He hasn't had any hugeness to his stardom since WCW ended (TNA provides zero or negative hugedom to your stardom.)

-not a big draw
His time in NWA/WCW was the dropping point of the Crockett promotion (so while Flair was a big draw, this was largely based on pre-Sting era)

-huge buyrate, singular
Starrcade 97 was huge. Nothing else was noteworthy. Dennis Rodman has a better WCW PPV track record.

-not a ratings draw
Sting didn't show himself to be someone who caused the channel to be flipped to him during segments. (I believe Flair was the only one in the Nitro era who was a consistent ratings draw above and beyond the Nitro average.)

Throw in a "Sting really isn't a household name" and "he's done nothing to improve TNA's lot", and I think that covers the basics.



The Big Bossman raised the briefcase.

Go Pack Go! Owner of one (1) share. (6-3, 2nd NFC North)
Let's Go Riders! Owner of one (1) share. (8-10, 3rd West Division.)
It's False
Scrapple








Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 1 day
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.75
    Originally posted by hansen9j
    -not a ratings draw


This certainly makes me worry about the future of these awards. Right now, who IS a ratings draw? Certainly not anyone at the top of The E right now.



hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 16 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by It's False
      Originally posted by hansen9j
      -not a ratings draw


    This certainly makes me worry about the future of these awards. Right now, who IS a ratings draw? Certainly not anyone at the top of The E right now.
Well, Cena is (and easily went in on his first go). That's... that's about it.

Ratings wouldn't be nearly as important as PPV & house show (which begs the question who IS a PPV & house show draw, and results in me saying Cena and then mumbling for a while and hoping you change the topic).

(edited by hansen9j on 8.11.12 1245)


The Big Bossman raised the briefcase.

Go Pack Go! Owner of one (1) share. (6-3, 2nd NFC North)
Let's Go Riders! Owner of one (1) share. (8-10, 3rd West Division.)
graves9
Landjager








Since: 19.2.10
From: Brooklyn NY

Since last post: 3 hours
Last activity: 2 hours
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.11
    Originally posted by hansen9j
      Originally posted by graves9
      I can't believe Sting is not in the Observer Hall of Fame. He has been a huge star for twenty plus years, has had great matches and moments was a big draw in his prime and drew huge buyrates and ratings as the top babyface in the heyday of WCW. I'm not sure what the reason is that he's not in.
    Others will respond a little fuller and with more support, but basically these are the bullet points:

    -not a huge star for twenty plus years.
    He hasn't had any hugeness to his stardom since WCW ended (TNA provides zero or negative hugedom to your stardom.)

    -not a big draw
    His time in NWA/WCW was the dropping point of the Crockett promotion (so while Flair was a big draw, this was largely based on pre-Sting era)

    -huge buyrate, singular
    Starrcade 97 was huge. Nothing else was noteworthy. Dennis Rodman has a better WCW PPV track record.

    -not a ratings draw
    Sting didn't show himself to be someone who caused the channel to be flipped to him during segments. (I believe Flair was the only one in the Nitro era who was a consistent ratings draw above and beyond the Nitro average.)

    Throw in a "Sting really isn't a household name" and "he's done nothing to improve TNA's lot", and I think that covers the basics.
I think you make fair points, but I disagree with him not being a huge ratings draw back in the day. He wqas the number one babyface when WCW was kicking the WWE's tuchis in the ratings war. Flair was mostly a midcarder in 96-97 and when he got the title back in '99 the ratings were horrendous. Agree on Sting's TNA run not doing any but 87-01 run is enough to get into the hall of fame imo.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 9 hours
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.70
I would've definitely cast a vote for Sting but Dr. Wagner Sr. not being inducted really stands out as surprising, given that he's one of the biggest stars ever in Mexico.



"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." --- Bart Giamatti, on baseball
Dr Unlikely
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2 hours
Last activity: 43 min.
AIM:  
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.31
Does anyone remember what the debate points were on both sides for Jericho in 2010?

He feels like the guy already in most comparable to Sting, in that there are no significant "different era" or territory hiccups, longevity disparities or major differences in titles won, nor would either be judged on things like being a promoter or announcer or anything like that vs. a straight look at their in-ring careers and business impact. And while I don't think anyone would argue (at least not passionately) that Jericho isn't the better worker, I don't think the "best worker of his era/promotion/territory" card would have been played for him, since they were likely what factored into Benoit and Eddy getting in, and those two were almost always direct peers for Jericho.

None of which is a knock on the guy - I think I've been pretty clear about being a big Jericho fan over the years. It just seems like the two of them are pretty even in terms of career prominence and positioning, and Sting might even have a better case on the latter if just as a functioin of having fewer guys to compete against in the earlier part of his career.
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 1 day
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.81
I agree Sting should be in just because... well he's Sting. I also agree with the points against him too. I guess it's one of those things where it kind of sucks for him not to be in, but it's understandable.

I think Edge got screwed simply by never really being the number 1 guy in the company. Sure, Smackdown has completely fallen off the rails with him gone, but being "the face of Smackdown" doesn't carry as much clout as "The face of the industry".
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 16 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
Trying not to be the guy who is 30% of the thread; failing.
    Originally posted by graves9
    I think you make fair points, but I disagree with him not being a huge ratings draw back in the day. He wqas the number one babyface when WCW was kicking the WWE's tuchis in the ratings war. Flair was mostly a midcarder in 96-97 and when he got the title back in '99 the ratings were horrendous.
I was very careful in how I worded my ratings comment; while Nitro as a whole did well during Sting's rafter year, Sting's segments didn't do anything noteworthy despite their focus, while Flair's midcard angles actively caused TVs to be changed to Nitro.
    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    Does anyone remember what the debate points were on both sides for Jericho in 2010?
"Edge + Japan + Mexico", basically.



The Big Bossman raised the briefcase.

Go Pack Go! Owner of one (1) share. (6-3, 2nd NFC North)
Let's Go Riders! Owner of one (1) share. (8-10, 3rd West Division.)
TripleG
Linguica








Since: 27.1.12
From: Queens ny

Since last post: 481 days
Last activity: 349 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by hansen9j
    Trying not to be the guy who is 30% of the thread; failing.
      Originally posted by graves9
      I think you make fair points, but I disagree with him not being a huge ratings draw back in the day. He wqas the number one babyface when WCW was kicking the WWE's tuchis in the ratings war. Flair was mostly a midcarder in 96-97 and when he got the title back in '99 the ratings were horrendous.
    I was very careful in how I worded my ratings comment; while Nitro as a whole did well during Sting's rafter year, Sting's segments didn't do anything noteworthy despite their focus, while Flair's midcard angles actively caused TVs to be changed to Nitro.
      Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
      Does anyone remember what the debate points were on both sides for Jericho in 2010?
    "Edge + Japan + Mexico", basically.
Gotta disagree with this. Sting as a loner and the NWO set WCW on fire. Flair was doing what? Trying to prop up Mongo and build up Jarrett? Teaming with Piper and feuding with Syxx. Flair also missed six months in 96-97 with a shoulder injury. People were switching over to Nitro to see the cruiserweight division that was carried by Mysterio and Malenko and what the NWO would do and what Sting might do. Sting was insanely over those days and while Hogan was the top draw then Sting was a close second.
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

Since last post: 621 days
Last activity: 12 days
AIM:  
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.85
Do you mean to tell me that x=people paid money to see Sting crouch in the rafters?

FLEA


(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 8.11.12 1850)


Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high





Llakor
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Montreal, Quebec, CANADA

Since last post: 505 days
Last activity: 497 days
AIM:  
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.55
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo

    * Hans Schmidt was a Canadian wrestler who was active from 1949 to 1976, popular in Chicago, Milwaukee, and Toronto. He was one of the first to popularize the foreign heel gimmick. He has previously been selected to the Canadian Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame and the Slam! Wrestling Canadian Hall of Fame.


Hans Schmidt was a Francophone Quebecker (or Quebecois if you prefer) named Guy Larose

He was originally supposed to be an RCMP officer, but one night when he was a cadet (if I remember the story right this was in the late 40s) the RCMP decided to shut down a party in Kahnawake and seize the illegal/smuggled booze.

A riot broke out. They called for reinforcements and Larose along with a bunch of other RCMP cadets bundled into the back of a truck to drive over to the riot. When they arrived at Kahnawake, the truck was surrounded by young Mohawks who pelted the truck with rocks, refused to let any of the cadets out and rocked the truck back and forth threatening to tip it over.

Larose made the decision on the spot that if he survived the night, he would quit trying to be an RCMP officer and train to become a wrestler. (He knew a trainer in the Laurentians.)

*****

I was told this story by Billy Two Rivers, an ex-wrestler from Kahnawake who became a tribal elder after he retired. He is most famous for being the public face of the tribal council during the Oka crisis.

Billy knew the story because he has been one of the Mohawk kids who attacked the truck that night and learned Larose had been in the truck when Larose told him the story about how he got into wrestling years later when they were wrestling in the same promotion, Billy as a face and Larose as a heel.



"Don't Blame CANADA, Blame Yourselves!"
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 6 hours
Last activity: 5 min.
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.73
I was going to post in this thread and then I forgot and now I remembered but now it's like, I shouldn't, but I don't want to snub James' threadstarting, so like

    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    Does anyone remember what the debate points were on both sides for Jericho in 2010?

    He feels like the guy already in most comparable to Sting...


I guess if I would boil it down, I think Jericho was considered a jack of all trades and Sting was considered not quite a master of any. And that despite Sting's rep as "the WCW franchise," for most of his career, but for a couple unsuccessful runs in '90 and '92, he was closer to Jericho 2000s-level "star amongst a group of them" in the pecking order than a Hogan/Cena-style #1 dude. That's not my argument against Sting for HOF, just my argument against Sting as an all-time top star kinda guy.

Personally I think Edge is stronger than Jericho (and I'm for Jericho). It seems to have boiled down to Jericho capping off his career winning Wrestler of the Year -- which in Observer terms is sort of like an MVP award for "carrying a company + wrestling quality" all-aroundedness combo -- in '08 and '09 as the best all-around guy in the business. Comparatively, Edge finished second for WOTY twice in '06 and '08, and to me finishing second in a fan vote from random dudes is arbitrary and basically as good as finishing first, but I guess you don't get the plaque from San Jose when you finish second.
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