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The W - Pro Wrestling - Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame 2004 (Page 2)
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GRL
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Since: 13.7.02
From: Austin

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.06
I believe the 'greatest wrestler in the world' reference was pointing towards his Olympic Gold Medal credentials, as opposed to his run as Smackdown GM.



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darkmatcher
Bockwurst








Since: 12.2.03
From: New York, USA

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.74
Um, do you have some personal vendetta or something?


    Angle's had many a failed attempt, and that's probably why you hear a lot about him playing politics, because he may be more insecure about his spot than HHH used to be.

Am I reading this right, because I've never heard about "Angle playing politics" until coming across this. Geez, are any wrestlers exempt from being accused of politics by the internet(see also, Rock)? Can't wait until its Orton's turn. Of course he'll have some flaws in his style, he doesn't exactly have a detailed pro-wrestling background. But all that considered, he still puts on better matches than most guys who DO..and for that that doesn't he deserve some slack? Besides, he's only had the opportunity to learn WWE style...to expect MORE out of him would be kinda farfetched. Now I don't necessarily think he needs to be in the HOF so soon, but to totally rip on the guy?
On another note, what's with people rushing to give HHH status in the HOF? This is only his first year eligible for thing thing and by virtue of his age..since he hasn't been in the business 15 years. He's not a proven draw, and was only a good performer for like a year. There are lots of guys deserve to get in the list before HHH does.
Mild Mannered Madman
Toulouse








Since: 1.3.02
From: Westminster, CA

Since last post: 476 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
    Originally posted by MARTYEWR
    How is Kurt Angle the greatest wrestler in the world? What exactly did he do that was so great? He's never drawn a dime for the WWE, and his matches are incredibly overrated. On top of that, this is a guy who's had a total of 4 turns in the four and a half years he's been in professional wrestling and, on top of that, had a slight physical makeover in May 2002 (the hair match vs. Edge).


I'm curious what the turns and makeover have to do with being a good wrestler.

Angle's in due to his pro & amateur stats.





There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
MARTYEWR
Kishke








Since: 15.10.02

Since last post: 299 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
GRL: "I believe the 'greatest wrestler in the world' reference was pointing towards his Olympic Gold Medal credentials, as opposed to his run as Smackdown GM."

There's an Amateur Wrestling Hall Of Fame already, and Angle's in it. I have no knock towards his amateur credentials. But he hasn't accomplished nearly as much as a pro wrestler that many are willing to believe. And it *is* a pro wrestling hall of fame we're talking about, if I recall correctly.

darkmatcher: "Am I reading this right, because I've never heard about "Angle playing politics" until coming across this. Geez, are any wrestlers exempt from being accused of politics by the internet(see also, Rock)? Can't wait until its Orton's turn. Of course he'll have some flaws in his style, he doesn't exactly have a detailed pro-wrestling background. But all that considered, he still puts on better matches than most guys who DO..and for that that doesn't he deserve some slack? Besides, he's only had the opportunity to learn WWE style...to expect MORE out of him would be kinda farfetched. Now I don't necessarily think he needs to be in the HOF so soon, but to totally rip on the guy?
On another note, what's with people rushing to give HHH status in the HOF? This is only his first year eligible for thing thing and by virtue of his age..since he hasn't been in the business 15 years. He's not a proven draw, and was only a good performer for like a year. There are lots of guys deserve to get in the list before HHH does."

I'm not "totally ripping" on Angle. I just don't think he's the be-all and end-all of the WWE that a lot of other people think, and that Dave Meltzer has been known to think. Meltzer's pimped Angle a ton of times and, since he's very influential, that's how the voters chose Angle. Mainly his readers, of course, that were influenced but that's still enough of a percentage of the voting group to get Angle in. As for Angle and politics, there's been more than a few reports about Angle having an HHH-like influence with the writers over the direction of his character. I believe there was a report from the Observer about Angle convincing Eddie that "it'd be good for him to lose at SummerSlam". That's speculatory, of course, but if you were in Angle's shoes right now (bad neck, inconsistent character, drop of quality in character), would you not want to take that extra step? Not that I'm justifying it, of course...

As for HHH, I agree that some people are indeed rushing him in, but I do think, as I stated earlier, that if he has a few more years like this year (which has been good) coupled with his awesome late-1999-mid-2001 period, he's a shoo-in in the future.

Mild Mannered Madman: "I'm curious what the turns and makeover have to do with being a good wrestler.

Angle's in due to his pro & amateur stats."

I covered the amateur stuff above. What about his pro? He's nowhere near the complete worker that Chris Benoit is, and Benoit got in solely because most voters think he's one of the best workers in the last 10 years. Angle's missing an awful lot, even during his better days. His strikes are weak, his psychology is really overrated, he sometimes has awkward transitions. He's still relatively good compared to more than half of the WWE roster (especially with a lot of his moveset), but he's no less a spot wrestler than Rob Van Dam. Only difference is RVD and Angle have very different movesets.

And turns and makeovers have an awful lot to do with wrestling, as it's a sign as to how well your character has been doing. Angle's had many, most specifically since the second-half of his career started (roughly when Edge best him in the hair match). Can you say the same about Austin, Rock, Hogan, Flair, or even HHH? HHH had a botched face run in 2002, but besides that, he's had very few turns in his 10-year career. People seem to forget: wrestling is a business and it's more than just the ringwork that makes a star. If that's all it was, Paul London might be a world champion right now.



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Mild Mannered Madman
Toulouse








Since: 1.3.02
From: Westminster, CA

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.79
    Originally posted by MARTYEWR
    I'm not "totally ripping" on Angle. I just don't think he's the be-all and end-all of the WWE that a lot of other people think, and that Dave Meltzer has been known to think. Meltzer's pimped Angle a ton of times and, since he's very influential, that's how the voters chose Angle. Mainly his readers, of course, that were influenced but that's still enough of a percentage of the voting group to get Angle in.


Actually, Angle got his biggest support from current wrestlers & legends. (Source: 8/23 Observer) Somehow I think they're a bit less swayed than the average fan.




There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.67
"On another note, what's with people rushing to give HHH status in the HOF? This is only his first year eligible for thing thing and by virtue of his age..since he hasn't been in the business 15 years. He's not a proven draw, and was only a good performer for like a year. There are lots of guys deserve to get in the list before HHH does."

HHH is a legit HOF candidate. He's one of the only recent guys to make a serious impact on the box office outside of the Big Two (Rock and Austin), he's a great old-school worker with a LOT more behind him than one good year and he's maybe the best ME heel of the past five years. If Angle can get in, Hunter sure as Hell deserves a spot.



Once upon a time in China, some believe, around the year one double-ought three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei was walking down the road, contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite power contemplates - which is another way of saying "who knows" - when a Shaolin monk appeared, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods. The nod was not returned. Now was it the intention of the Shaolin monk to insult Pai Mei or did he just fail to see the generous social gesture? The motives of the monk remain unknown. What is known, are the consequences. The next morning Pai Mei appeared at the Shaolin Temple and demanded of the Temple's head abbot that he offer Pai Mei his neck to repay the insult. The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was inconsolable. So began the massacre of the Shaolin Temple and all 60 of the monks inside at the fists of the White Lotus. And so began the legend of Pai Mei's five point palm exploding heart technique.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3269 days
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
I was just going to post that. The wrestlers have a unique perspective which some would say kinda clouds their judgment but I think its as valid as ours and that Dave is right to give ballots to the 3 different groups.

Angle gets votes from wrestlers because of his amateur background, because he's very easy to work with and makes everyone look good, and because he worked WrestleMania 19 with a broken neck. Its sure saying something when in that short amount of time, you gain that amount of respect not just from your peers but from wrestling legends.

Personally, I think Angle got in too soon but he just barely got in so isn't that a good representation of how most view him?

EDIT: And Hunter missing by a couple votes speaks volumes for how solid of a HOF candidate he is because so many people, fans, wrestlers, and journalists, hate his politics. He'll get in next year unless he really does something to piss people off. In that case, he'd have to wait like Shawn Michaels.

(edited by fuelinjected on 27.8.04 0959)


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MARTYEWR
Kishke








Since: 15.10.02

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by Mild Mannered Madman
      Originally posted by MARTYEWR
      I'm not "totally ripping" on Angle. I just don't think he's the be-all and end-all of the WWE that a lot of other people think, and that Dave Meltzer has been known to think. Meltzer's pimped Angle a ton of times and, since he's very influential, that's how the voters chose Angle. Mainly his readers, of course, that were influenced but that's still enough of a percentage of the voting group to get Angle in.


    Actually, Angle got his biggest support from current wrestlers & legends. (Source: 8/23 Observer) Somehow I think they're a bit less swayed than the average fan.



Fair enough. I didn't know that originally. Thanks for the info.



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W Of The Day: Tuesday, March 4, 2003
W Of The Day (2): Wednesday, October 29, 2003

"Because I'm the man, and the man's the man, and that's just the way it is!" -- Eric Foreman, That 70s Show

orangeman
Salami








Since: 21.8.04
From: ...that would be telling

Since last post: 3054 days
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Dave is right to give ballots to the 3 different groups.


Meltzer usually presents it as 4 groups

-Active wrestlers
-Former wrestlers
-Historians
-Journalists



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This immediately and unequivocally makes him PUBLIC ENEMY #1
Mild Mannered Madman
Toulouse








Since: 1.3.02
From: Westminster, CA

Since last post: 476 days
Last activity: 194 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.79
Jim Cornette & Jim Ross are among the HoF voters as well.




There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
darkmatcher
Bockwurst








Since: 12.2.03
From: New York, USA

Since last post: 2683 days
Last activity: 1758 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.74
I'm well aware despite my own concerns on Hunter as an incredibly overrated, fallible superstar...that he will inevitably be inserted into this thing. I'm not denying that he's a potential qualifier, and I'm not denying his accomplishments(the best of which, I of course feel are from that one year.). I still think he doesn't need to be in so soon. I still think that there are others who deserve to get in first. Angle isn't one of them..and I actually already kinda stated that.

Am I perhaps mistakenly equating the Hall of Fame as a 'Hall of Legends'? Because if I am, well then maybe I am perhaps overanalyzing the HHH situation. Either way, I'm still at least in approval of his managing to avoid getting inducted only ONE year after Shawn.
Net Hack Slasher
Banger








Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.12
I think Sting is really getting the short stick here. He was the face of WCW especially on the babyface side in the 90s. Had great feuds with Flair and Vader, and solid feud with Cactus Jack... Crow Sting probably soured some voters but I thought surfer Sting was a solid #1 babyface, Surfer Sting (along with Cactus Jack) were top two reasons that made me expand my viewership in the early 90s more than the WWF (well also watched Stampede around that time maybe a little before)



smark/net attack wienerville advisory is raised to ORANGE alert - High (Benoit lost the title to some punk kid named Orton, lets look at the positive at least it's a heel not named HHH who has the title, which allows two fresh faces battling for the World title.. whaat? excuse me? what happened on Raw! well scratch that... Over to Smackdown we wave at Justin Bradshaws title reign, I think I'm getting sea sick)- 8/22
CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.73
Agreed on Sting. Like it or not, he was such a huge part of WCW, in the good times and bad. Plus he could always be counted on to have a decent (not always great, but decent) match no matter what the circumstances. Considering the amount of time that spans, he should definitely be in the Hall.



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Since: 18.6.02
From: North Cacalacky

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.34
I'm on the fence with Sting. I wouldn't mind him getting in, but, at the same time, I wouldn't be upset if he didn't. I can see the case for and against him.

If I were a voter, I'd probably vote for Sting if I had any open slots. However, he wouldn't be my first pick, either.



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fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3269 days
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
WCW lost money or barely turned a profit every year up until 1996 when Sting was the "franchise" of WCW. They weren't drawing jack with Sting and had to keep going back to Flair to try and pop a buyrate or a house. So Sting being a big star all those years is relative. He wasn't the worker that Bret or Shawn or Benoit were, so that shouldn't overcome his lack of drawing power. He was a mediocre worker who could be carried by a very good worker. That's not bad but that's not HOF material. So he wasn't a HOF Draw, he wasn't a HOF Worker, and he certainly doesn't really have any lasting impact on the business.

Sting's biggest run came when he stayed out of the ring for an entire year to build up a match with Hulk Hogan. He was hot for awhile there and had some good PPV numbers but ultimately, when the nWo faded, Sting was just the same non-factor he always.



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bigredmachine29
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Since: 12.5.04
From: new jersey

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.67
I'm probably biased on the topic of Sting, as I usually am. That said, to say that HHH, or Angle deserve to be in instead of him is ludicrous in my eyes. This man was the #1 face for WCW for years. He had one of the greatest fueds of all time with Flair, who I believe was quoted as saying that Sting was his greatest opponent. Thats pretty high praise considering the talent that Flair has been in the ring with.

And Fuelinjected, saying that Sting was a mediocre worker is inaccurate. As Bulldog said, he could be counted on to have a good match every week with just about any opponent. And when Sting had a good/great worker as his opponent he could do great things.

To go on, I believe that WCW's apex came in about '97, when they were rolling over RAW every Monday. Its ironic, how that time period was when Sting was the focal point of Nitro. Sting's popularity at that point was equal to Austin's at his peak, and a good, long title run would obviously have gone over hugely with the fans. The thing that stifled Sting's drawing power, and arguably the run that WCW was having, was the horrible anticlimax at Starrcade '97, which was a result of Hogan refusing to put him over cleanly.

One final thing that I would say in Sting's defense is that when he started to age, he would never refuse to put younger talent over(i.e. Booker, Goldberg, Steiner, Jarrett).
Mild Mannered Madman
Toulouse








Since: 1.3.02
From: Westminster, CA

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.78
    Originally posted by bigredmachine29
    I'm probably biased on the topic of Sting, as I usually am. That said, to say that HHH, or Angle deserve to be in instead of him is ludicrous in my eyes. This man was the #1 face for WCW for years.


But Sting never drew money. Triple H was on top during the most profitable year for a wrestling promotion EVER. Sting was never the top draw during a profitable period for WCW. (His 18 months of not wrestling really doesn't count.)




There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
BWT
Boerewors








Since: 27.1.04
From: Philly

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.56
I don't think Sting has a chance at ever making it. This year he had a horrible performance in the voting and hes only 3% away from being eliminated totally from the vote. I think of Sting as being WCW's Undertaker as a face who you could always count on having decent matches but was stuck with tons of bad angles and wasn't protected the way the Undertaker was. In the end Sting was still over after all those years and I think that has to account for something. However I don't think WCW ever gave him enough credit and didn't build up his reputation until its dying days when they started to call him "the franchise". In my book I think he deserves it but lets face it he was a captain of a sinking ship all those years.
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 57 days
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Y!:
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.85
    Originally posted by Mild Mannered Madman
    (His 18 months of not wrestling really doesn't count.)


But I'd say that it definitely SHOULD count, as he didn't take an 18-month vacation or book himself to be out of the ring 18 months or anything like that. He was merely doing what the bookers told him to, so I don't think that 18-month period should be held AGAINST him from a wrestling standpoint and can only be used to argue FOR him from a "did he draw?" standpoint.



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fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by Mild Mannered Madman
      (His 18 months of not wrestling really doesn't count.)


    But I'd say that it definitely SHOULD count, as he didn't take an 18-month vacation or book himself to be out of the ring 18 months or anything like that. He was merely doing what the bookers told him to, so I don't think that 18-month period should be held AGAINST him from a wrestling standpoint and can only be used to argue FOR him from a "did he draw?" standpoint.


Actually, the bookers were doing what Sting forced them to do. Sting said that they had used up all the dates in his contract and he refused to wrestle anymore until that contract ran out. When it did, he signed a new one with less dates.

I might go pull the buyrate info if I have time, but I don't think his big PPV's (outside of Starrcade) during that period after he returned to the ring did any better then any of the ones he didn't headline.

I'm not saying Sting was a horrible wrestler because he clearly wasn't. He just wasn't really that big of a star that he should immediately be thrust into the Hall Of Fame. There was always a bit of a case for him, which is why he's remained on the ballot but I don't see Sting as a HOF guy. He flopped big time in the early 90's when they built the company around him. Fans loved him but they didn't really care about paying to see him. Maybe its because he couldn't cut a money promo to get people to care?

Sting had some great matches with Muta, Flair, and Vader but did he ever have a great match with someone who wasn't a better worker then he was?



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