Yeah, ok, but there's a few posters in this thread that should take notice of vsp's words. Somebody had to say it eventually. It's a nice atmosphere here at Weinerville and there's no need for people to get all flamey, we're not the Smarks board fer cryin' out loud!
Anyway, re: Benoit. I think the notion of a wrestler "staying loyal" to a company at that point in history when your options for making decent money were a company with a head who double crossed his World champion on PPV and a company with a precedent for firing you by FedEx while you were in a hospiital bed after getting injured working for them are a little ludicrous. Why shouldn't a guy go get his market value elsewhere if he was able? Wrestling had always been full of promoters looking out for themselves first, so why shouldn't a wrestler have done the same thing? I say more power to Benoit for having the bottle to do something about his situation.
Sometimes a fed jump was a career resucitating decision, what has "staying loyal" done for Bob Holly or countless others? Now the option is gone I guess this is all moot anyway, I just don't agree that Benoit had to stay loyal to WCW.
"Nobody enjoys a good time more than I do, but this business of yours is as legitimate as a three-legged donkey...which of course is illegitimate because as we all know donkeys have four legs."
Russo was fired (again I believe) and the new man in charge was known not to be pushing the likes of the Revolution/Radicalz..it might even have been Bisschoff returning?? -OR it could have been the other way around but at least there was a change in management/direction again-
Anyways, all wrestlers were given the chance to have their contracts ripped up if they wanted to leave. The Radicalz wanted out, I believe along with Douglas, Konnan (and some others? i dont recall?) I assume in a last effort to keep Benoit they threw the belt on him, even though he was out of his contract. It obviously failed..I cannot blame WCW for keeping the option open for a reversal of the decision with the foot thing. Good business decision.
Konnan, Douglas et all decided to stay after all. Shane got a push shortly after I believe..
The 4 Radz showed up on Raw shortly after..
Obviously a final straw kinda feel on the part of the Radicalz, and financially a good choice i guess. If it was the proper choice for their carreers is all bs.. who knows what would have happened if they stayed, if eddie hadn't injured himself, if saturn wasnt so stiff, blahblahblha..
What I always wanted to know, is on the Souled out PPV.. Malenko slides out of the ring against Kidman, thus losing. Why did he do this? asked to do so, or did he just throw the towel in the ring so to speak?
"...And I use that to fuck them some place fairly uncomfortable." "What, like the back of a volkswagen ?" -Mallrats
Originally posted by HokienauticOmega, there are a lot of people here who have been around longer than you. They've posted to this board for a loooong time, and have the reputation of being a good poster. You? You just have nine posts. They may be pretty good posts, but you don't have that rep built up.
What's that? You don't think your posts at Wienerville are getting the respect they deserve? You're going to go to Frankfurterville instead?? Okay, okay, hold on ... how about we name you Top Wiener, then? If we tell the world we love you will you stay? Huh, huh, will ya? Okay, we love you ... but just in case that doesn't matter to you, let us add the caveat that maybe -- perhaps -- in a way -- we don't REALLY love you.
Now ... do we love you, or no?
The ONLY ONLY ONLY reason Chris Benoit got the title was to try to lure him into staying. Period. And then they pull the whole "hand under the ropes" in a transparent CYA attempt just in case. You know what that tells me? They weren't sincere. I'm sure he saw right through it.
Of course Benoit had something to complain about, and I don't see how you can pooh-pooh the Sullivan/Woman side of things. If some guy stole your wife and you were his boss would you give him the plum assignments? Me neither.
WCW was in a free fall, and many wrestlers were getting the shaft. A number of them were given the opportunity to leave, and these four took advantage of it. To turn your argument around, don't you think it says a LOT about what Benoit thought of his future in WCW is he was willing to leave the gold behind for a fresh start in the WWF?
He was not "the man" in WCW and was never going to get a chance. He was given a cheap win over Sid that had a built-in overturn in a last-minute attempt to suck up when WCW realized these four wouldn't be walked over like so many others were. It was a pathetic attempt, and obviously it didn't work.
It took a while, but I believe Benoit was on the perfect track in the WWF. Yes, it's going to be hard to get there again when he returns, but I'm hopeful he can do it. Had he stayed in WCW, I think it's safe to say he would have lost that title within a week and would have been right back where he was before -- treading water.
What the? When did I say anything about respect? I've only got 9 posts? What does that have to do with anything? You don't love me? I'm crushed. Again, what does it have to do with anything? I didn't ask for respect, I didn't ask you to love me, I simply stated an opinion; in a civilized society, that's what leads to the exchange of idea's. As for the Radicalz, I would've liked to have seen them get a better push earlier in their WCW run, but they got pushed more towards the end. They were all on their way up the card when they left WCW, none of them ever got higher on the WWF cards than they did in WCW, so I think the "held back" excuse is a lot of hot air. Out of the 4, only Benoit and maybe Eddie were main event material, but Eddie was always hurt and had drug problems, which led to the WWF cutting him, so it's a tough call on him. The fact of the matter is that they saw the WWF on the way up while WCW was going through a slide, they could've stayed and worked to bring WCW back to respectability, but they took the easy route, a jump to the WWF.
dMp asked: What I always wanted to know, is on the Souled out PPV.. Malenko slides out of the ring against Kidman, thus losing. Why did he do this? asked to do so, or did he just throw the towel in the ring so to speak?
I have read (but who knows?) that Dean went out the ring accidentally -- or, rather, instinctively, you know, just one of those things that wrestlers do, going out for a breather. He realized too late that that meant the match was over, and they had to just call it there. So apparently it was just a cock-up by Dean.
Originally posted by HokienauticVSP, just for the record please go back and re-read my post that you responded to about "it doesn't matter how long you've posted here." That post was meant to jokingly explain the Benoit-in-WCW situation -- HE was the "poster" who was new, with other "posters" having more a rep. I wasn't saying anything about the value or lack thereof for new or old posters.
Well, I'll admit that it flew right over my head man. Let me further explain that I don't blame them for wanting to go to the WWF, I just don't think it was a "loyal" thing to do, and it hurt WCW a great deal. I still hope to see Benoit as WWF champion someday, and I'd like to see Saturn and Guerrero make it, but I still feel they did some not so great things to WCW (yes WCW did some bad thing to them too).
It would have been cooler if Eddy, Dean and Saturn went to ECW even if it was just for the dying days. They really could have put out some great matches there before going to the world of Sports Entertainment. As for Benoit I don't even think Benoit was first choice for the title that night, wasn't it Tank Abbott? I think he made the right choice and I was pretty surprised that the WWF pushed him as fast as they did. His feud with the Rock was great.
Also you talk about bad timing for Benoit to get injured, how about a guy like Rhyno. If you ask me there needs to be some serious roster thinning. I know Vince is trying to squeeze out competion by having all the big names, but the roster is getting out of hand. I really don't know how much longer I can take the two minute match.
No, matter what there is no excuse for the tag division to be the piece of shit that it is with a roster the size that it is. If noting else Malenko and Saturn were a good tag team. Do something with the roster.
Well, they'd already DONE that. All four guys are ECW alumni, though Perry's the only one who arguably made a name for himself there (the others were just passing through). Raven went back to ECW because he had considerable history and reputation there; most of the ECW fans at that time wouldn't have known that Dean, Chris and Eddy had ever been there, and given the state of Kronus at that point, an Eliminators reunion would have been pretty short-lived.
As fond as my memories of mid-90s ECW are, let's also not forget that it was an obviously sinking ship at the time that the Radicalz jumped. Vince had abducted the Dudleys and had Taz(z) on standby, the Awesome/Tanaka matches were done, RVD was injured, Sabu was old and gone, Sandman was useless, Dreamer was barely walking... they were running out of ideas AND healthy bodies rapidly. This left them with a bunch of guys with zero name value (EZ Money, Corino, Kid Kash, Doring & Roadkill, Nova, etc.) to push, dopey angles like the "Network" and bringing in Dusty Rhodes, and generic garbage wrestling (New Jack vs. the Baldies Vol. I-XII, Ballz Mahoney, the repeated deaths of Spike Dudley, bringing in W*ING Kanemura and setting him on fire) to fill in the gaps.
Going from WCW to ECW then would have been like a baseball free agent saying "I could sign with the Yankees for megabucks, but I'll go with the Toledo Mud Hens instead because I'll play more there."
As for Rhyno, well, there will always be room for the Rhynos of the world in the WWF. He didn't have a main-event push in his future, much like his _present_ like Benoit did. Rhyno can come back and get into the IC title mix and he'll be just fine, but I'll be surprised if Benoit will headline in the WWF again, which is a shame.
The Random Tag-Team Generator would indeed be a good way to rotate more guys into the mix. We may see more of that once (if) the split happens.
HELLO KITTY gang terrorizes city, family STICKERED to death!
*ROFL* What you just said VSP made me laugh so bad.. "Well, they'd already DONE that. All four guys are ECW alumni"
I was in New York for the Rumble 2k when I watched the Nitro after the PPV (couldnt see the ppv in the hotel, and not online, i had no idea what happened and wondered wtf happened that they stripped Benoit of the belt and he wasn't there) Then I was watching the local channel that aired ECW and there was this commercial: "Benoit..GONE! Malenko..GONE! Saturn..GONE! Guerrero..GONE! The Franchise..GONE! All ECW Alumni.." with this thick NY accent. That still cracks me up, however I was SO shocked to hear they were gone from WCW..
Anyways, VSP.. What makes you think Benoit won't be headlining again in the WWF? Assuming he returns 100% ready and able and he can still dive off the top and stuff I think he still has a chance of getting there.
(edited by dMp on 6.3.02 1643)
"...And I use that to fuck them some place fairly uncomfortable."
"What, like the back of a volkswagen ?"
Well, they'd already DONE that. All four guys are ECW alumni, though Perry's the only one who arguably made a name for himself there (the others were just passing through). Raven went back to ECW because he had considerable history and reputation there; most of the ECW fans at that time wouldn't have known that Dean, Chris and Eddy had ever been there
Raven went there b/c he couldn't go to the WWF as part of his release.
As for fans not remembering Eddy, Dean and Saturn that is just absurd. ECW had the most diehard fan base of any US promotion. I have a hard time ECW fans would have forgotten that. Also ECW was big on history, a lot bigger than the WWF or WCW ever were. So, I think if the three of them showed up in ECW it would have made some pretty big waves. Enough to save the promotion...I doubt it, but who knows.
> ECW had the most diehard fan base of any US promotion. I have a hard time ECW fans would have forgotten that.
But 90% of the people watching ECW in 2000 weren't watching it in 1995, because ECW had nothing even resembling national exposure at that point. Hell, I live twenty minutes from Philadelphia and I didn't get ECW's syndicated show until '96, at which point Eddy/Benoit/etc. were gone and Rey was warming up the car. To date, I've seen exactly one ECW match with Chris Benoit in it, and that's because I picked up the "Hardcore History" tape (which came out long AFTER the promotion was dead).
Don't get me wrong -- I'm sure that if the WCW 4 had popped up in an ECW crowd instead of ringside at RAW, a lot of ECW fans would have gone nuts, said "HEY, that's CHRIS BENOIT and EDDY and...!" and the roof would have blown off the place. ECW didn't exist in a vacuum. But casual wrestling fans in general have very short memories, and even the tapes endlessly shilled on ECW TV commercials didn't go back to when Taz wore furry legwarmers and Dean was the Iceman...
HELLO KITTY gang terrorizes city, family STICKERED to death!
I agree with you on Sting as he has always been a face andI do agree that it is tougher to get over as a face than a heel, but what I am saying is in TODAYS WWE, there is no one who has been a face, stayed a face and been a champion.