Originally posted by TheBucsFanSuarez's handball against Ghana remains a moment of individual brilliance
I guess I'd have to ask what you mean by "brilliance" there. Now I freely admit that as a casual fan (and an American at that) I have no patience with "the dark arts" such as Robben's all-day, goldfish-on-the-counter exhibition that was finally paid by the referee. (Full blame to Mexico both for undisciplined defending that left a leg out there for Robben to flop over, and for trying to turtle for the last 35 minutes of regulation.)
But that handball of Suarez was as cynical and anti-fair-play a move as I've seen. It's bad enough FIFA makes the NCAA look legit by comparison, but I'd have put Suarez out of international play for life for that alone.
(Again, I'm sure it's just that I don't understand 'soccer' well enough ;)
Luis Suarez is far from the only person to intentionally touch a ball with his hand. Handballs are part of the game, this is why there are rules for dealing with them - and he got sent off, just as the rules dictate. This is no different from any other foul; if a player getting a booking for a late slide tackle isn't cheating, then neither is a player getting a red card for a handball. It was brilliant because it was a split-second decision and he made absolutely the right one: He took his team from a position of 100 percent certain defeat, and made it somewhere less than 100 percent, and because of that Uruguay ultimately progressed.
All sports are full of intentional fouls. Basketball would be a totally different game without them - is it poor sportsmanship for a team down five with 30 seconds left to foul rather than let the opposing team have a possession and run the clock out to victory? What about an NFL offensive lineman who intentionally holds to protect his quarterback from a sack? Intentional walks in baseball seem similar too.
It was tough luck for Ghana, a heartbreaking way to lose. But it wasn't cheating. Cheating would be doing what he did and not getting a red card for it.
The only way to stop this from happening would be to give the ref the authority to award the goal, but it is inevitable that this would lead to goals being awarded that many people think shouldn't have been. I'd rather the rule stay the same, because the specific set of circumstances comes up so rarely that it's not what I would call a major problem. But as long as the rule stays the way it is, Suarez's action was the only right one. I would be disappointed with an American player who didn't do the same thing in that circumstance.
Originally posted by TheBucsFanIt was tough luck for Ghana, a heartbreaking way to lose. But it wasn't cheating. Cheating would be doing what he did and not getting a red card for it.
I was with you up until this. He broke the rules, so it was cheating. Not getting a red card would've just been cheating and getting away with it.
That said, he did what a huge majority of players would've done in the same situation and the reaction to it was ridiculously over the top (and borne, in some quarters, of a slightly patronising desire to see Ghana do well in "Africa's World Cup"). Even in a comparable position in other sports I'd expect plenty of players would commit some sort of minor foul/rule infringement if it meant avoiding certain defeat.
OTOH, he's been a massive douchenozzle on several occasions since so I don't feel as strongly inclined to defend him on that one now.
EDIT: More importantly, James Rodriguez might just've diddled Cahill of what looked certain to be goal of the tournament.
I disagree that he "broke the rules." The rule doesn't say no handballs - the rule says, if you intentionally touch the ball with your hands, there are punishments. Just like fouls are not banned - they are just subject to punishment. That there is in fact a rule for dealing with handballs is itself an admission that handballs are part of the game.
If an infringement that calls for a punishment per the rules is cheating, then cheating happens every match and the term is kind of useless. Suarez is not the first person to intentionally handle a ball, are all the other ones cheaters? Is a deliberate foul at midfield to break up a potential counter-attack cheating? What's the difference? How about intentionally hauling a man down when you're the last defender?
If the Suarez handball happens in the second minute of the match, nobody calls him a cheater. But because it happened so late in the game that, coupled with the missed penalty, it was decisive, it sparked a much more emotional response than it would have otherwise. See Thierry Henry if you're looking for an example of a handball that is cheating.
But of course I don't want to defend Suarez the person. It's just plain as day to me that the handball incident is a totally different thing. It was an incident that is and always will be part of football. Biting and racism certainly should not be.
Originally posted by TheBucsFanI disagree that he "broke the rules." The rule doesn't say no handballs - the rule says, if you intentionally touch the ball with your hands, there are punishments. Just like fouls are not banned - they are just subject to punishment.
Semantics, no? I mean, the punishment for simulation/diving is a booking but I think most people would agree that's cheating. Handling the ball is referred to multiple times as an offence. The punishment for it is just what happens when you break the rule.
If the Suarez handball happens in the second minute of the match, nobody calls him a cheater.
Completely agree. It also doesn't happeen IMO (at least not to the same extent) if he doesn it against Germany or Italy, because then he'd be playing for the plucky underdog scrapping to survive against a footballing superpower.
It was an incident that is and always will be part of football. Biting and racism certainly should not be.
A million times yes. If there's a player alive who hasn't deliberately handled the ball at some stage I'd be mildly shocked. Most manage to avoid the biting though, despite Luis's "these things happen" defence.
After lying about the incident: "After the impact... I lost my balance, making my body unstable and falling on top of my opponent. At that moment I hit my face against the player, leaving a small bruise on my cheek and a strong pain in my teeth." ,he finally admits to the biting.
Germany advances, all 3 goals of the game coming in overtime. France advances too. Costa Rica beat Greece after penalty kicks. And then there's the Dutch. Wow. After a terrible first half and a goal against early in the second, they started playing a totally different game. The pressure was on Mexico and just when they got adjusted to the new game, the team switched tactics again.
People here still bitch about the 5-3-2 system, but van Gaal is able to play the smartest way at any time of the game, switch and get the team going when needed. I think at some point they played 2-3-5 (with Kuyt going from left defender to right defender to forward)
The equalizer was very deserved, a great -great- goal by Sneijder but then the winning goal in extra time...a penalty kick that definitely wasn't one. Wow. Arguments here are that it was just, as we should've gotten a PK earlier in the game. But still, right there and then it was insane of the ref to award it. But yay! We survive another round!
I think it was a foul. Robben's embellishment just gave people an opportunity to blast him because of his reputation. But him overreacting doesn't make it not a foul.
And like you said, Robben was absolutely mugged on at least one other occasion, in first half stoppage time, and had another incident in the second half where I thought he deserved a penalty.
And how about the composure by Huntelaar to bury it after a delay that seemed like hours?
But that performance certainly slowed down the Dutch bandwagon. The good news for them is, none of the teams have truthfully looked particularly great in this tournament. Brazil don't look like winning it. I guess Germany have been the best side thus far, but they could have very easily lost last night in regular time. Algeria outplayed them for a lot of that match.
One of the earlier fouls was definitely worth a Penalty shot. The guy broke his leg when he slammed into Robben! Still not convinced about this one, but I'll take it of course
Huntelaar was cold as ice. Lots of respect for him. And I don't know (personally) if it slowed the bandwagon. You have to be able to win the ugly games too and they've done that twice now (Australia, Mexico) and if anything, they've proven that yes-we ARE 80/90s Germany now. Never give up and fight for the goal until the last second.
But it seems like all favorites have trouble, like you said. Argentina is having a hard time cracking the Swiss shell right now. Still 0-0 going to OT now. It feels like everyone can beat everyone right now.
Originally posted by dMpGermany-Brasil (at half time) 5-0. Wow. Just fucking wow. Brasil allowed 4 goals in 10 minutes actually. Their defense was in total disarray and the Germans were all over them. Just fucking wow.
7-1 FT. Yikes.
No sympathy for Brazil. They were cynical in the way they tried to kick Rodriguez around in the QF and got what they deserved tonight.
Hulk and Fred have been hideous. Utterly abysmal all tournament. Guys like Oscar, Dante, Marcelo, David Luiz, Fernandinho and the rest are all big name players playing for big teams and they were dreadful.
Germany were awesome, but hopefully tomorrow's game is a bit more competitive.
We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy - Swift
Well back on the first page of this thread I rated Germany as the favorites to win it, and Argentina as one of the teams I'd most like to see win. So no reason to backtrack now - I'm pulling for Argentina, but Germany have to be heavy favorites.
That dismantling of Brazil was surreal. There's no words for it. I tried to explain to my wife why this was so stunning, but it was impossible to put into words. It's just more stupid sports bullshit to her. But given the context - Brazil playing the World Cup at home, trying to avenge the ghosts of 1950 - it is hard to imagine a more shocking and brutal defeat in any sport. The only things I can even think to try to compare it to was the most recent Super Bowl, but while that was a comparable slaughter in terms of the score, I don't think it carried anywhere near the emotional toll that this loss did on the Brazilians. Some of those players are going to be forever defined by this loss.
Anyway, I'm hoping to see Messi get a World Cup win. I can find no reason not to like the guy and the way he plays. But my head says a comfortable win for Germany.
Originally posted by TheBucsFanAlso, the third-place match needs to go away. There is no reason for it to exist.
They can charge networks the same amount for that game as the other ones, that's why it exists. (It's not going away until they expand again, and I'd take a 3rd place team over 4 or 8 more teams getting in.)
Yeah, I have no clue how that 3rd place game is going to play out. Does anyone ever remember those?
I'm assuming the Dutch will play their 2nd string guys because they no longer want to risk injuries and such.
Brasil..they probably want to do the same but need to win this to redeem so who knows what they end up doing? It could turn out to be a fun open game or the most boring thing ever.
As for the finals. Argentina played a very tight game against the Netherlands. Defensively they had everyone covered, including Robben. They knew when to attack and when to aim for the counter. Germany will be a notch harder to fight than the Dutchies but I don't believe Argentina is without chance.
I wonder if another comparison to wrestling would be due. Jackson, Evans, Sonnen and Toney seem determined to work the Lesnar style. Not that Lesnar invented smack talk in the UFC, but he certainly got the headlines when he ran his mouth.