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The W - Pro Wrestling - Women
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The Robot Devil
Loukanika








Since: 16.8.03
From: Robot Hell

Since last post: 3964 days
Last activity: 3873 days
#1 Posted on
I love the WWE Divas. I love Trish, Molly, Gail, Lita, Sable, Stacy, Ivory, and Nidia. I love 'em in bikinis, in pudding matches, mud matches, bra and panties matches, but on RAW, thanks to the hard work of all the Divas and Fit Finlay, I love it when they work. I think the Divas bust their asses and try to improve with each match. They deserve more TV time and better, more consistent storylines and character development. I think the WWE Women's Champion and her storyline should be featured on RAW, and there should be Divas action and angles on Heat as well.

Wrestling has a sexist undercurrent and there is a segment of the audience that just wants to see sex, and another segment that think women don't belong in wrestling at all (though it's perfectly all right for naked men in tights to pretend to fight - that I can't really fathom completely.)

Having said all that, sometimes it is rough seeing the girls out there in matches. Not because they can't wrestle because most of them can and put together some good performances for what they're allowed to do and how much time they're given.

But sometimes it's hard to watch the girls out there because I don't like watching them get hurt. Trish is a good example because 1) I like her the most and 2) she's a bump machine and an excellent seller, so she always gives the impression that she's hurting even when she perhaps is not (though all the bruises on her body say otherwise). And being a lover of women, seeing these girls out there getting their bodies slammed around is difficult to take. That doesn't mean I don't think they belong or don't want them out there. However, it's hard watching these girls get hurt. It's hard enough watching the male wrestlers go out there and lay their bodies on the line to entertain us. I remember a few years ago when Lita was busted open hardway in a match against Ivory and juiced more than any woman has that I can recall on American TV. That wasn't easy to watch.

And yet, do I think the Divas should be limited out there? No. I want them to perform to the best of their abilities and to see how good they could be and continue to create the genre of women's wrestling in the United States.

Still, if the Divas ever get booked in a ladder match or a Hell in a Cell, it won't be the easiest thing to watch. Not because they could fuck up, but because they could get hurt. The Divas, the RAW roster especially, have it tough, in a way the male wrestlers don't. But they have my respect and admiration, I'll tell you that much.

(edited by The Robot Devil on 5.9.03 1837)
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BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

Since last post: 3408 days
Last activity: 3317 days
ICQ:  
#2 Posted on
I don't think wrestling is any more sexist than any other entertainment field. Fact is, the best North American female wrestler out there today wouldn't have a job with WWE if she were a man with the same wrestling ability. The only Japanese women I have ever been exposed to were the Jumping Bomb Angels and no woman in WWE or TNA can hold a candle to what they could do - and they were over here fifteen years ago. As wrestlers, the women don't add anything. The work ethic may be there - as an example, Trish Stratus' improvements since she first came in have been remarkable - but the skill level is not. There is no money in womens wrestling as it exists on this continent. If you could put women out there who could work on the same level as the men and play characters to the same ability it might be worthwhile - but they can't, so it isn't.

You almost contradict yourself in what you say. You want to see the divas perform to the best of their ability, yet you don't want to see them in certain matches because they'd get hurt. Which is it? Ask Mick Foley or Shawn Michaels or Jeff Hardy if they've ever been hurt in a HIAC match or ladder match. Being hurt is part of the business, and naturally part of getting the most out of what you've got.

Basically, the only value (in a monetary sense) the divas have is as sex objects. They don't draw ratings, don't draw people to house shows, and don't sell PPVs, but they do sell videos and magazines. They're not being exploited when they're asked to pose in their underwear, because the company's intention is obvious. The women are adults, they can decide for themselves if it's worth being sex objects in order to make the money they make and enjoy the fame that they do. Let's be honest...if not for the 'eye candy' aspect of wrestling, these women would not be employed because as wrestlers they just don't cut it.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3292 days
Last activity: 3292 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
Their segments actually usually do well in the ratings, especially Trish and Victoria, much better then a lot of the undercard talent. They're never going to make any Main Event money but they're a good piece to the puzzle. You say they can't cut it as wrestlers yet they often have better executed and entertaining matches then a lot of males with similar experience level like La Resistance or Rodney Mack or Rosey or a number of wrestlers. Heck the Trish/Victoria Street Fight was one of the better matches with the most heat on RAW this year.

The sex appeal is a huge part of their appeal but having a marketable look has always been very important in WWE land which is why all the guys now are sculptured greek adonises. There's no guys that look like Mick Foley getting breaks anymore. It's all about the look in WWE.

They're not a detriment to the ratings, the matches are decent, they sell tons of videos/magazines, and most wrestling fans are males so their sexiness appeals to them.

Personally, the only reason I wouldn't want to see them in a big gimmick match is because their bodies aren't built to withstand the same type of punishment as a 200 pound male.
darkmatcher
Bockwurst








Since: 12.2.03
From: New York, USA

Since last post: 2706 days
Last activity: 1782 days
#4 Posted on
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    Fact is, the best North American female wrestler out there today wouldn't have a job with WWE if she were a man with the same wrestling ability. The only Japanese women I have ever been exposed to were the Jumping Bomb Angels and no woman in WWE or TNA can hold a candle to what they could do - and they were over here fifteen years ago. As wrestlers, the women don't add anything. The work ethic may be there - as an example, Trish Stratus' improvements since she first came in have been remarkable - but the skill level is not. There is no money in womens wrestling as it exists on this continent. If you could put women out there who could work on the same level as the men and play characters to the same ability it might be worthwhile - but they can't, so it isn't.


I couldn't agree with you more. Naturally you're going to piss off a lot weiners saying something like this since they're all huge WWE women's marks. But honestly guys, you can't assume that the rest of the wrestling fan world will feel the same way you do about the women. From what I see, crowds are still dead silent when the women are wrestling.

-You say they can't cut it as wrestlers yet they often have better executed and entertaining matches then a lot of males with similar experience level like La Resistance or Rodney Mack or Rosey or a number of wrestlers. -

Ok, maybe Molly and Jazz have decent movesets and can carry decent matches, but I think you're definitely exaggerating. And you have to realize that these guys you mentioned are usually given less ring time than the women. Sure, La Resistance suck, but they too weren't brought in neccesarily for their ring work, but to play a gimmick. Gail Kim sucks, and we were supposed to buy her as a wrestler.

Its like Vito said, even in their best matches these chicks can't hold a candle to the Japanese women's stuff.

I don't mind most women wrestlers but I get very annoyed when people are giving them more credit as mat workers than I see they deserve.



what you say
Jackson
Sujuk








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 2020 days
Last activity: 1545 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.10
Edit: So I was drunk okay!?

(edited by Jackson on 7.9.03 0208)


Tenken347
Boudin blanc








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

Since last post: 3 hours
Last activity: 2 min.
#6 Posted on
Maybe it comes down to a matter of opinion, but I would say that the women on RAW are probably the best part of the show. They're not as good as the main-event tier guys, but they're way better than all of the undercard and most of the midcard. The matches almost always have a story behind them, present solid psychology, and use some very innovative moves. Victoria's widow's peak is, in my mind, the coolest finisher in the whole company. You say that they can't hold a candle to the Japanese women wrestlers? You could make the same comparison with the men, and for many of them you'd have a similar opinion. We're talking about the WWE here, though, and the women provide as much entertainment, or more, as the men on the program.
Ringmistress
Lap cheong








Since: 15.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2705 days
Last activity: 2704 days
#7 Posted on
Well, I'll agree that the japanese ladies are light years ahead of the female (and male) wrestlers here in the States, I've seen it for myself. But, that doesn't mean we should discount Trish and her brood. I was one of those people who dismissed Trish because it seemed at the time that she was here for show, just like the other Divas, but then, she just...became a WRESTLER! I could say the same about Victoria, she was a HO for god's sake!

My point is, since the women's division is at its strongest in a while, why not run with the ball and add more psychology and distinct characters like the Robot Devil said. But, if they don't, it's not like I'll be surprised or anything.



"Friendship - The art of using somebody to your advantage so that they can help you succeed in life. Once they can no longer help you, they are no longer your friend." Brock Lesnar, Philosopher

1200 bitches and counting....
Liz
Chipolata








Since: 26.8.03
From: Ironton, Ohio

Since last post: 2705 days
Last activity: 1767 days
AIM:  
#8 Posted on
Eh, the women's division is a mixed bag. I enjoy the women's matches, and I want to see it grow as a division, but the WWE itself puts a lock on it. They have the quandry of actually letting the females wrestle, but they can't wrestle *too much* because their faces and bodies are their number 1 commodities. I don't know if they don't take sick bumps because they 'can't' or because they have to protect their selling point, which is their looks. Females never blade, they rarely take the bumps that may lead to hardway juice. I understand it, but until they can do those things, they're going to be limited.

OTOH, if the WWE employed females that *would* blade and take the extreme risk moves, the audience would bitch about them employing ugly women. If I were a wrestler, I'd be blading and bumping like crazy, but that's because a) I'd want to be the female Mick Foley and b) I don't have a pretty face & body to protect. I'd also never score a job with the WWE. So there's the options for women.

I also don't agree that the women are up to par with the men, USUALLY. There have been a few matches that really shone, IMO, but it seems to be the exception and not the rule. One of the reasons I dig Jazz & Shaniqua (what I've seen of her) so much is that they can kick ass, no holds barred, and not have to worry about looking good in a bikini the next day. Or whatever. However, they don't really have opponents that can/will do the same thing. I can say that if the day comes when one of them blades, I'll shriek and mark out like a madwoman.

Feh, I'm rambling. Hopefully, I made a little bit of sense.

I wish GLOW would come to town.




Hunger hurts, but starving works.
Net Hack Slasher
Banger








Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

Since last post: 3619 days
Last activity: 2039 days
#9 Posted on
Wow Jackson I remember your post, when reading I thought that was the longest "I digress" comment in history

I personally don't think blading or taking really stupid dangerous bumps is a necessary to make yourself credible. I understand blading adds drama but majority of the time I find it as a cop out to make a match seem more intense then it really is. I never thought blading was ever a sign of toughness or how much you are will to give back. Personally I'm happy with solid booking, strong characters and hard work. That's enough to make me happy.

I really don't want or need any woman being the next Jeff Hardy popping painkillers(which unfortunately I'm sure some are, hopefully to a safe degree), or having her forehead look like a Abdullah's skull. There are some lines I don't think women need to cross. Sometimes I'm torn, I like seeing them push themselves but sometimes I worry... I remember a Judgement Day PPV, the Sable/Torrie had a real overthetop bikini contest, Raw Girls had a match and Trish took a over the top rope face/chest first bump to the floor when Victoria blocked the Struatusfaction. It was damn impressive and it really looked like Trish wanted to get some spotlight back to the Raw women wrestlers but when she got up with her mouth bloodied I think, ah you should have gone safer and landed on your butt.

I think these women are tough, I can't think of a better bumping partner for a Jazz then Trish. I can't think of a time which I thought they are taking it easy on her or Trish taking the safe way out. Trish is not the perfect wrestler but I do think her willing to bump & her fearlessness and toughness is her strongest suit. Victoria is another one I find to be really tough, her in ring work and knowing how bad her knee is and still going out there ever week earns my respect. I think both these women are on par with Jazz in the tough category and light years ahead of Shaniqua... I'm a big Shaniqua supporter, her character is much needed on SD. Shaniqua kicks ass but hasn't taken bump one on TV, if you like the character that's cool I do to. But the two former bikini models I've mentioned in this paragraph have shown more toughness then Shaniqua has.

*Sorry Liz, I hope it didn't sound like I'm picking on you. Just after reading your post I thought "I don't think I can disagree more" LoL. But that's cool, that's what makes messageboards interactive.

I love women wrestling, I enjoy the different change of pace they bring into the show. When I see them out there I just see them putting out so much effort, because mostly they have to. There not talented enough to just go through the motions, for me it seems everytime they are out there it's like they need to prove their spot and their worthiness. I think these Raw women love being known as athletes and don't want to go the SD route so they are doing everything in there power to get the division as whole over... That's another thing, the women seem much more of a group working together, it doesn't seem to have an ego among them and willing to do anything for the betterment of the division. That's the perception I get when looking at the current Raw women. Oh one more thing, They don't need a ref bump or a low blow in every match.



Me fail English? That's unpossible
The Robot Devil
Loukanika








Since: 16.8.03
From: Robot Hell

Since last post: 3964 days
Last activity: 3873 days
#10 Posted on
Something else that is rarely taken into account for the Divas is that the wrestling ring is not built for them. The WWE ring is ideally built for huge men over 6' tall and well in excess of 200 lbs. Yes, there are smaller wrestlers such as Rey Mysterio, who is kind a one in a million talent above and beyond his fellow cruiserweights, and even some top guys like Chris Jericho aren't that big.

Still, most of the Divas are under 5'8" and I'm sure don't weigh as much as Rey or Spike Dudley, the smallest guys on the roster (don't want to speculate too much on ladies' weights). Yet they have to navigate and perform in this enormous ring made for huge muscular men. Trish, Molly, Victoria, Gail, Lita and the others have been able to apply their abilities and use the ring to their advantage for many of their moves, but if you watch them run the ropes, you can see how the top rope reaches most of them in their necks and heads as opposed to most of the men who can hit top rope under their arms. It takes a great level of skill to be significantly smaller and make that huge ring their own.
Liz
Chipolata








Since: 26.8.03
From: Ironton, Ohio

Since last post: 2705 days
Last activity: 1767 days
AIM:  
#11 Posted on
    Originally posted by Net Hack Slasher
    I personally don't think blading or taking really stupid dangerous bumps is a necessary to make yourself credible. I understand blading adds drama but majority of the time I find it as a cop out to make a match seem more intense then it really is. I never thought blading was ever a sign of toughness or how much you are will to give back. Personally I'm happy with solid booking, strong characters and hard work. That's enough to make me happy.

    I really don't want or need any woman being the next Jeff Hardy popping painkillers(which unfortunately I'm sure some are, hopefully to a safe degree), or having her forehead look like a Abdullah's skull. There are some lines I don't think women need to cross. Sometimes I'm torn, I like seeing them push themselves but sometimes I worry... I remember a Judgement Day PPV, the Sable/Torrie had a real overthetop bikini contest, Raw Girls had a match and Trish took a over the top rope face/chest first bump to the floor when Victoria blocked the Struatusfaction. It was damn impressive and it really looked like Trish wanted to get some spotlight back to the Raw women wrestlers but when she got up with her mouth bloodied I think, ah you should have gone safer and landed on your butt.

    I think these women are tough, I can't think of a better bumping partner for a Jazz then Trish. I can't think of a time which I thought they are taking it easy on her or Trish taking the safe way out. Trish is not the perfect wrestler but I do think her willing to bump & her fearlessness and toughness is her strongest suit. Victoria is another one I find to be really tough, her in ring work and knowing how bad her knee is and still going out there ever week earns my respect. I think both these women are on par with Jazz in the tough category and light years ahead of Shaniqua... I'm a big Shaniqua supporter, her character is much needed on SD. Shaniqua kicks ass but hasn't taken bump one on TV, if you like the character that's cool I do to. But the two former bikini models I've mentioned in this paragraph have shown more toughness then Shaniqua has.

    *Sorry Liz, I hope it didn't sound like I'm picking on you. Just after reading your post I thought "I don't think I can disagree more" LoL. But that's cool, that's what makes messageboards interactive.



Heh, that's okay! I don't feel picked on, and you bring up a lot of good points. My main reason for mentioning Shaniqua is that she isn't the typical 'diva' material, if you know what I'm saying. I don't think we're going to see her in pillow fights and spanking matches (well, besides her whipping on the Bashams). Or Jazz, either, for that matter. They could go a different route than the rest of the girls. I would include Vickie, but I never get to watch Heat and I can't remember how rough she was in the ring.

I think it's probably different for you guys to watch the females compared to myself. I don't mind seeing a woman bloodied or flying off the top of cages and the like. This is tangential, but do you remember when that young woman wanted to enter the Citadel? And they lowered the bar for her? Yeah, it's like that. Yes, the men are bigger. They're obviously more muscular. It doesn't matter (to me) -- I want to see the females bring themselves UP to that level, not accept a lesser role. (Of course, I'm speaking of work and such -- I'm not saying the women have to become ripped out monsters like Batista.) I mean, if Zach can do it with one leg, then the women can do it. If Mae & Moolah are taking the kind of moves they take at 80 years plus, the young women can exceed them. And I don't doubt the toughness of a lot of these women at all! I just want to see them raise that bar.

As for worrying -- I worry about all of the competitors sometimes. I want them all to remain healthy and sound of body, but I don't know how realistic my worrying is. Even those who aren't bump machines or high-flyers wreck and brutalize their bodies for our entertainment, and really, would I want it any other way?

:)!!!

(edited by Liz on 10.9.03 1515)


Hunger hurts, but starving works.
The King of Keith
Lap cheong








Since: 4.11.02
From: Winchester, VA

Since last post: 344 days
Last activity: 303 days
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#12 Posted on
Jazz needs to return ASAP. She's been off of my TV for far too long. I want to see her smash Gail Kim (by smash, I mean utterly destroy and obliterate).



Hail to the Redskins! Patrick Ramsey will own you! 16-0, here we come!
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