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The W - Pro Wrestling - Why the hate on Shawn? (Page 2)
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Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    And yet, Edge has somehow managed to overcome being held down my Michaels to win the ladder match at WM, prolly main event SummerSlam and get a title run. What top babyface in the company loses clean?

Edge doesn't have to win clean. I'm fine w/ Edge needing to cheat to win, but then don't have HBK get his heat back the next night *PLUS* win the rematch after absorbing a ton of offense, which only serves to make Edge look weak.

If they want to push Edge to the top of the card, then they need to be serious about it. If that means HBK has to look a little weak along the way, then so be it. HBK should have sense enough to say "hey, y'know, maybe Angle should interfere to cost me the match, that way Edge gets protected, and it doesn't hurt my program w/ Angle." How am I going to take Edge seriously against Batista if he can't even get the upper hand on HBK?

HBK is at a point where he's going to be over no matter what, and doesn't need to be rigorously protected. A few clean losses here & there (in the right situations) isn't going to hurt him, and would certianly help whomever he puts over.


    Nobody complains that the 55+ year old Ric Flair went over Jericho cleanly at Summerslam 6 months previous.

That was the wrong decision, too.

(edited by Spaceman Spiff on 13.4.05 1609)


Silva316
Braunschweiger








Since: 21.3.05
From: Philly's Chinatown

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.32
^^ Michaels was going into the feud with Angle with the "Greatest performer of this generation" and "Mr. WrestleMania' tags.

Maybe, just maybe, wouldn't he have looked weak losing to Edge twice?? It was a streetfight where he bleed buckets so its not like Edge didn't get anything off that match. And yeah, Shawn won clean because faces aren't supposed to win by cheating.

Anyway, this Edge discussion is pointless since Edge did win the ladder match.



dun screw with mya!
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Angle interferes before Edge gets pinned. Edge avoids eating the pinfall, HBK avoids having to job, and it plays into both guys' characters (HBK/Angle feud, while Edge can claim he got screwed out of a win over HBK). Everyone's happy.



oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.60
IIRC, Jericho didn't *want* to get the win over Shawn at WrestleMania. The idea of Shawn jobbing was discussed, but he nixed it pretty early on.



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TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
I think many of you are overlooking the obvious. If, in fact, WWE *wanted* a Jericho victory, and Michaels did indeed refuse to lay down for him, than WWE would have had Jericho face someone else. Obviously they had this match and this outcome for a reason.





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redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.75
On the original point of the hatred towards Michaels, all it needs are 4 words: I Lost My Smile. Some actions are never forgiveable, especially considering Michaels had pulled a similar stunt with the I-C Title less than 18 months earlier. Hogan might have been a raving megalomaniac, but he would drop the belt in the ring, even if it took ridculous amounts of screw-jobbery for it to occur. Except for when Flair was fired by Herd during contract negotiations as champion, he always would drop the belt in the ring. Michaels was the first guy to consistently find ways to forfeit championships, establishing a putrid precedent. If he could walk to the ring, someone could have rang a bell and Michaels could have done an end to the 1994 Backlund title reign type of job.



(edited by redsoxnation on 13.4.05 2303)
J. Kyle
Boudin blanc








Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.29
X-E's co-Worst Poster of all time! JKyle.com says:

The problem, flairforthegoild, is that all your defenses of Shawn point-by-point ignores this:

    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    Also, in regards to Edge/HBK: yeah, Edge won at the PPV, but he had to hold the ropes. The next night on Raw, HBK knocked him out w/ the SCM, then beat him clean w/ 1 move in the rematch after taking everything but the kitchen sink from Edge, effectively proving that Edge beating him was a fluke.

For a less inteligible response to the "why Shawn is hated" I go to this, from the 02/28/05 Raw thread:
    Originally posted by AngryJohnny
    Every time. EVERY TIME. HBK is making a God Damn living out of getting Edge and Christian to look at the lights.

    That whole match there was never any doubt. Shawn was gonna look like a million bucks, and get the win out of nowhere.

    We get it Shawn. You're better than everyone younger than you.

    Don't fucking do this to Angle... whomever is booking. Don't let this happen to Angle.

    And on a positive note, at least if he's burying people on SmackDown Shelton is safe.

    Or hell just have him shut the Legend Killer's mouth.

    Keep him away from the young blood.
The MIRACULOUS news is that Angle won at Wrestlemania.

And yet again, as mentioned earlier in THIS VERY THREAD, the next night dismissal comes out after the clean loss. Just like with Benoit, Shawn comes out (limps out this time) and announces he's getting his job back.

Edge is on his way to a PPV main event, this is true. Maybe Shawn ISN'T holding anyone back.

But he's certainly an asshole.



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flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
From: Gainesville, FL.

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.87
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    On the original point of the hatred towards Michaels, all it needs are 4 words: I Lost My Smile. Some actions are never forgiveable, especially considering Michaels had pulled a similar stunt with the I-C Title less than 18 months earlier. Hogan might have been a raving megalomaniac, but he would drop the belt in the ring, even if it took ridculous amounts of screw-jobbery for it to occur. Except for when Flair was fired by Herd during contract negotiations as champion, he always would drop the belt in the ring. Michaels was the first guy to consistently find ways to forfeit championships, establishing a putrid precedent. If he could walk to the ring, someone could have rang a bell and Michaels could have done an end to the 1994 Backlund title reign type of job.



    (edited by redsoxnation on 13.4.05 2303)


man, you must really hate Stan Hansen then.

Y'know, Vince Russo wrote an interesting semi-shoot commentary in Raw Magazine about all that during the time. Basically, he opined that Shawn was on top during the most difficult period in Federation history and just had a nervous breakdown. I mean, the time that Shawn was on top wasn't really a pleasant time for anyone in the company. Was he wrong not to drop the title? Yes. Is it an unforgivable sin, not at all.
And c'mon he had three runs as champ. The first he dropped to Sid, to set up the re-match, of course.
The second was the vacant.
But the third, with a severely injured back he put over Austin clean.
I choose to remember him grimacing through that match then him dropping the belt.
And as far as him losing the belt in 8 seconds, well...that's a horrible idea. Michaels wasn't Backlund. Preserving titles is one thing, sacrificing a top star is quite another.
As far as the IC thing, he WAS attacked. The fact that he didnt' feel like getting in the ring was his call. I know the story differs on how badly he got beat up, but still. Now, the fact that Douglas had to immediately drop the title to Ramon was fucked up, but then we get into the whole Kliq issue and that's a different animal.

And I'm gonna lay off the whole Edge round and round.

I get the point, I think people are just making to much. I think 50-50 booking is rampant in the entire company with the tippy-top guys, I'm not gonna lay that down at Michaels' feet
Torchslasher
Knackwurst








Since: 17.1.02
From: New F'n Jersey

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.75
So, it seems we've learned that there's NOTHING HBK can do for some people. It's a vicious cycle, and there is no bridging the gap here. It doesn't matter if Shawn has no creative control over his character or if HBK can still change finishes to suit his whims.

For me, I'm just happy that most people have to still give Michaels props on having the best matches of almost any PPV he participates in. As long as you recognize his accomplishments in the ring (like Scott Keith seems to), you can call him whatever fun insult you'd like outside of it.



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Phantom
Frankfurter








Since: 17.3.02

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.86
    Originally posted by AngryJohnny
    The MIRACULOUS news is that Angle won at Wrestlemania.

    And yet again, as mentioned earlier in THIS VERY THREAD, the next night dismissal comes out after the clean loss. Just like with Benoit, Shawn comes out (limps out this time) and announces he's getting his job back.
No, he announced that there would be a rematch, and that next time things would be different. Just like every other babyface promo where he promises to get a rematch against the heel, and that next time he won't lose.
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 6 days
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.18
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    And c'mon he had three runs as champ. The first he dropped to Sid, to set up the re-match, of course.
    The second was the vacant.
    But the third, with a severely injured back he put over Austin clean.


He was going to forfeit the title, but Undertaker physically threatened him into doing the match.



Idle hand spend time at the genitals, and you know how God hates that..
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1 day
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
That story is pretty overblown. He wasn't "going to forfeit the title," but he was being Shawny about it and having second thoughts before Undertaker set him straight. Still a good story.
BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2811 days
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.37
The bottom line is that right now, I don't think that HBK is flat out refusing to job to anyone. Maybe he is, I can't be sure, but it seems to me from everything that I hear and read, Michaels is past that point both personally and professionally.

One of the major problems is the organizational mindset of the WWE which is that heels can't win clean or else they won't be heels. Now, done in moderation, this is the way to go because it builds heat for your heels and keeps your babyfaces stronger than if they do a clean job, but on the other hand, sometimes you need to keep your heels strong. But guys like JBL and Edge, who since last year have been attempting to become bona fide main event heels, do need to get some big wins where they are put over as stars. That is my biggest problem with JBL's title reign, that he never got put over strong on anyone and that made a lot of people continue to look at him as Bradshaw the midcarder.

Now, back to Shawn. Should he job more? I'm not sure that he needs to job more, but he needs to job to the right people at the right time, and do it cleanly. He could have put Edge over huge, but he didn't. Whose fault that is, I don't know. But clearly, I think that the fact that he not only lost a tainted match but beat Edge just a few weeks later was a bad thing for the development of Edge.

What I'm not saying is that Shawn needs to lose to Davari or Simon Dean or even Mohammad Hassan (right now at least). I think that the main event guys in the company should rarely lose so that when they do lose, it means something for someone's career. Shawn jobbing this week to Davari is counterproductive in the long run because if Hassan goes over on him later, it means less, because a lesser opponent has already beat Michaels.

Anyway, if people want to complain about someone not jobbing, let's talk about the Undertaker, who hasn't been pinned since October 2003.



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To me the TV title is as useless as Garrett Bischoff is. Devon had his time and really adds nothing as a singles wrestler. He would be fine as a backstage agent, but he's got nothing left to offer anymore as a wrestler imo.
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