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The W - Pro Wrestling - Why the hate on Shawn?
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Silva316
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Since: 21.3.05
From: Philly's Chinatown

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.32
Serioulsy, every goddam forum on the internet hates Shawn Michaels. Even all the goddam reviewers hate him. RSPW has always hated him. I swear, everywhere I go, its Scott Keith bashing the guy here, and Sean Carless bashing him there. I really don't get it a lot of times. I know the guy used to be a jerk back in the day, but since coming back all he has done is go out there and give his all..Its time to f'kin get on..
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Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.45
The only gripe I have about Shawn is his unwillingess to update the presentation. The long hair, the ... whatever the ring entrance costume is supposed to be, the theme music. If he got a haircut, I'd be happy. With his style, he strikes me as the guy who doesn't realize he's too old to be at the night club.

The guy can still go in the ring even if he has recently fallen into the FIVE MOVES OF DOOM~! pattern of comebacks (flying forearm, kip, atomic drop, punch, slam, elbow, Sweet Chin Music). While I can't speak for Keith, no matter what he says about Shawn's backstage behavior, he always gives Shawn credit for his ringwork.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Silva316
Braunschweiger








Since: 21.3.05
From: Philly's Chinatown

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.32
Hmm..yea, I'm sorta with you there as well. I myself sometimes can't stand his goody-two shoes chipendale-dance holy-man babyface shtick. It just doesn't go at all with the "Heartbreak Kid" persona. I think a heel turn should cure that though...which is rumoured to happen leading to a one-on-one with Hogan.

Anyway, Keith is one confused guy. He hated Shawn for the being too much of a jerk, and now he hates him for being too goody. And I think he has underrated a lot of his post-2002 ring stuff as well.
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.28
Well, people hated him b/c he was a jerk who refused jobs and helped screw over Bret Hart.
Now people hate him b/c well, no one in this country seems to like Christians.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    Now people hate him b/c well, no one in this country seems to like Christians.

Yeah, that must be it.

People hate him now because he said he wanted to put over the newer/younger guys when he came back, but we've only seen him put over HHH. It may not be totally his fault, but since he's the guy out there going over Jericho at Mania, and more recently getting the better of Edge (who they're trying to make a top-level guy), he gets the hate.



John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.12
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    The only gripe I have about Shawn is his unwillingess to update the presentation. The long hair, the ... whatever the ring entrance costume is supposed to be, the theme music. If he got a haircut, I'd be happy.


Unwillingness to update the presentation? What about the snazzy new black leather pants he wrestles in? And when he returned to the ring in 2002, he had a haircut. Did you like him more then?

And why should Shawn Michaels get a haircut? Half the roster is either bald or sports the Randy Orton, Christian, Chris Masters 'do. With the corporate dress code in effect, the WWE wrestlers don't even look like wrestlers anymore, they look like Admin Assistants.

As for the five moves of doom, it's not just Shawn Michaels, all the top iconic guys do the same moves over and over again. Steve Austin? Stomp a mudhole, Thesz press, elbow off the ropes, middle finger, Stunner. Rock? Nipup, sharpshooter, spinebuster, People's Elbow, Rock Bottom.

Even everyone's beloved, untouchable Godly Chris Benoit: German suplex! German suplex! German suplex! German suplex! German suplex! German suplex! Swandive headbutt! Poorly executed Sharpshooter. How about a few more German suplexes? Crippler Crossface.

My point there is wrestling is a television medium and it's their job to be repetitious. Their job. Their job. Repetitiveness is their job.



"Strong words. Strong words from a strange man." - Kent Brockman
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.45
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    Unwillingness to update the presentation? What about the snazzy new black leather pants he wrestles in? And when he returned to the ring in 2002, he had a haircut. Did you like him more then?


The pageboy cut? Heck, no, it looked worse than the long hair. But he's no longer that young hotshot who wants to thrill the girls. He's no Heartbreak Kid. He looks 40. Even Flair cut the hair after a while.


    And why should Shawn Michaels get a haircut? Half the roster is either bald or sports the Randy Orton, Christian, Chris Masters 'do. With the corporate dress code in effect, the WWE wrestlers don't even look like wrestlers anymore, they look like Admin Assistants.


The long-haired wrestler is a fine staple of the industry. It's the rebel, the wild guy, the pretty boy, the party guy, etc. Edge works with long hair. Christian simply looks better without it. But, after a certain time, that look becomes less convincing when the performer ages, like someone desperately trying to appear young even though they just can't carry the look anymore. When Shawn is wrestling, he looks like the man of old. When he's out of the ring, he looks like the man WHO IS old. And if I could change one thing about the guy, it would be his presentation. Bring him forward in time a bit and stop working the look that predates the nWo and Steve Austin. His ringwork, as I said, is OK by me.





"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.28
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

      Now people hate him b/c well, no one in this country seems to like Christians.

    Yeah, that must be it.

    People hate him now because he said he wanted to put over the newer/younger guys when he came back, but we've only seen him put over HHH. It may not be totally his fault, but since he's the guy out there going over Jericho at Mania, and more recently getting the better of Edge (who they're trying to make a top-level guy), he gets the hate.


The Christian thing was mostly a joke. But I wonder how people like his praying before matches. It's like the anti-Austin middle finger. He comes across as a goody goody now and in wrestling fans just don't cheer for that.

Okay, I tried to look up Shawn's PPV results since the comeback, but couldn't find them all, but off the top of my head.
Edge beat him on PPV *but I guess people are saying since Shawn won the rematch on TV it wasn't really putting him over*
Jericho made him submit on Raw *but I guess people are saying since Shawn won the first match on PPV, it doesn't count.*
um, okay
He put over Orton twice (both on PPV)
Benoit beat him at WM and Backlash.

I mean, he even lost to Daivari.
Sure, he's not doing clean jobs to Stevie Richards on Heat, but that would be counter-productive for business.

I see Shawn as kinda a success story, I mean. Five years ago, it seemed like his life was in shambles, his back was geeked up, he was a forgotten man. I'm glad he turned his life around.
Is he still the best wrestler in the world, I'd say not and he does need a bit more character aside from 'resilient babyface' but I think people should get over what happened in the 90s.

I actually think he should get a run with the belt (on Smackdown)
Another point, if you're a mark for titles (which I kinda am, har) he hasn't held any title since the one month hot shot World Title reign in 2002.





(edited by flairforthegold13 on 13.4.05 0935)
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Edge beat him on PPV *but I guess people are saying since Shawn won the rematch on TV it wasn't really putting him over*



It wasn't putting him over because it wasn't clean. And if anyone is going to say heels don't need to win clean, I give you Randy Orton, who was pushed, while a heel, as someone who Jesus Christ himself could not defeat. It also wasn't putting him over because Shawn dead-assed him during the match, and gave about fifty percent. Fast-forward a couple weeks later, and he puts in ten times the energy and effort in the street fight, a match he's booked to win. Coincidence? No, no it's not. Say it is at risk of being labelled retarded.

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Jericho made him submit on Raw *but I guess people are saying since Shawn won the first match on PPV, it doesn't count.*


Does "on PPV" really describe Wrestlemania? He wasn't beating Jericho on fucking Taboo Tuesday, it was Wrestlemania. This is the only show every year many people watch, and the loss was completely damaging to Jericho's career. He was reeling after being job-boy to HHH and personal bitch of Stephanie McMahon the 'Mania before. This was a vital match for him, and had he won it he would have been over in a big way, main-event heel over. Shawn completely fucked him over here. If Jericho wanted to lose, Shawn should have vetoed him. Most blatant rape of a career I've ever witnessed, on par with Hogan's powerbomb no-sell in WCW.

Oh an by the way, he submitted after interference, so let's stop framing these jobs dishonestly.

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    He put over Orton twice (both on PPV)


Not clean, and not clean...(Brass knucks, Batista-ference)

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Benoit beat him at WM and Backlash.

    I mean, he even lost to Daivari.


At WM HHH took the fall, I can't believe you even mentioned that. At Backlash, Shawn did tap out, and it was probably the next night where he quickly swept that under the rug, didn't give Benoit any credit for making him tap, and said Benoit couldn't beat him one-on-one. And this time, he was saying this to a babyface, so it stands out a little more, doncha think?

Come on, are you really counting Daivari?

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Sure, he's not doing clean jobs to Stevie Richards on Heat,


And no one's saying he should be...

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    but that would be counter-productive for business.


Agreed.

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    I see Shawn as kinda a success story, I mean. Five years ago, it seemed like his life was in shambles, his back was geeked up, he was a forgotten man. I'm glad he turned his life around.


Me too. I don't want him to die, just to stop being an asshole.

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    I think people should get over what happened in the 90s.


Done. The stuff I'm talking about all happened in the last two years.

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    I actually think he should get a run with the belt (on Smackdown)


If it's to put someone over clean in a classic match for the title a few months later, I'm all for it.





Hot Virgins-The World's Most Steadily Shrinking Commodity
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Also, in regards to Edge/HBK: yeah, Edge won at the PPV, but he had to hold the ropes. The next night on Raw, HBK knocked him out w/ the SCM, then beat him clean w/ 1 move in the rematch after taking everything but the kitchen sink from Edge, effectively proving that Edge beating him was a fluke.



Silva316
Braunschweiger








Since: 21.3.05
From: Philly's Chinatown

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.32
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
      Originally posted by flairforthegold13
      Does "on PPV" really describe Wrestlemania? He wasn't beating Jericho on fucking Taboo Tuesday, it was Wrestlemania. This is the only show every year many people watch, and the loss was completely damaging to Jericho's career. He was reeling after being job-boy to HHH and personal bitch of Stephanie McMahon the 'Mania before. This was a vital match for him, and had he won it he would have been over in a big way, main-event heel over. Shawn completely fucked him over here. If Jericho wanted to lose, Shawn should have vetoed him. Most blatant rape of a career I've ever witnessed, on par with Hogan's powerbomb no-sell in WCW.

    If you think a bit further here, you'll realize that the WRITERS JUST DIDN'T WANT TO PUSH JERICHO UP. And neither do they want to do that now. The WWE has clearly made it known how they want to keep Jericho midcard 4 life.

    And so now its all Shawn's fault?

    I'll tell you somethin, Michaels gave Jericho probably the match of his life, and Jericho looked like a million bucks in that match. You probably thought you were seeing the next heel champ, but he lost. To whom? To a guy with the worst win-loss record ever (in the 90's). So what you do, is blame it on Shawn.

    But the fact is my friend, they had no plans of pushing Jericho, none at all. So why would they make him beat Shawn? Had they had those plans of a push, and Shawn still beat him, I would have sided with you. But you're clearly speaking out of your ass with the 'Blame it on Shawn' cliche.

    Had they given Jericho a push after Mania, having lost to Shawn, I too would have bashed Shawn saying how him having jobbed to Jericho would have helped Jericho's push better. But they didn't, so it all cancles out.

    You all need to realise that Shawn doesn't care about wins and pride anymore. Had he been as obsessed now as he once was, we would be at present seeing him in the same position HHH is in.

    (edited by Silva316 on 13.4.05 1249)


    dun screw with mya!
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
From: Gainesville, FL.

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.28
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    Also, in regards to Edge/HBK: yeah, Edge won at the PPV, but he had to hold the ropes. The next night on Raw, HBK knocked him out w/ the SCM, then beat him clean w/ 1 move in the rematch after taking everything but the kitchen sink from Edge, effectively proving that Edge beating him was a fluke.


And yet, Edge has somehow managed to overcome being held down my Michaels to win the ladder match at WM, prolly main event SummerSlam and get a title run. What top babyface in the company loses clean?
I mean, hell, Eddy wasn't pinned by JBL, that might have legitimized that reign. But no one complains that Eddy was holding him down.


    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
      Originally posted by flairforthegold13
      Edge beat him on PPV *but I guess people are saying since Shawn won the rematch on TV it wasn't really putting him over*



    It wasn't putting him over because it wasn't clean. And if anyone is going to say heels don't need to win clean, I give you Randy Orton, who was pushed, while a heel, as someone who Jesus Christ himself could not defeat. It also wasn't putting him over because Shawn dead-assed him during the match, and gave about fifty percent. Fast-forward a couple weeks later, and he puts in ten times the energy and effort in the street fight, a match he's booked to win. Coincidence? No, no it's not. Say it is at risk of being labelled retarded.


I'm not quite qualified to analyze effort in a match. And Orton was pushed as Jesus Christ, and it backfired. Edge seems to be doing fine with all his tainted wins (let's note, Edge pinned Orton via rope holding during the IC series last year)

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Jericho made him submit on Raw *but I guess people are saying since Shawn won the first match on PPV, it doesn't count.*


Does "on PPV" really describe Wrestlemania? He wasn't beating Jericho on fucking Taboo Tuesday, it was Wrestlemania. This is the only show every year many people watch, and the loss was completely damaging to Jericho's career. He was reeling after being job-boy to HHH and personal bitch of Stephanie McMahon the 'Mania before. This was a vital match for him, and had he won it he would have been over in a big way, main-event heel over. Shawn completely fucked him over here. If Jericho wanted to lose, Shawn should have vetoed him. Most blatant rape of a career I've ever witnessed, on par with Hogan's powerbomb no-sell in WCW.

Oh an by the way, he submitted after interference, so let's stop framing these jobs dishonestly.



Okay, I thought Jericho should have won the match too. However, FF a few years, Jericho (who never was gonna get back in the main event mix whether he beat Shawn or not after his reign tanked) goes on to have a great angle and feud with Christian and Trish, and generally is a top line Raw star. Michaels goes on to have classic matches with Benoit, HHH, whatever. At the time I didn't agree with the decision, but I think it worked out. And besides winning or losing a great match really doesn't matter. How often did Batista lose in the past year. Look at the ratings he's drawing. Michaels rose to glory based on a loss to Ramon. Jericho losing that match, while unfortunate, is less important than the fact that he was in a great match at WM.

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    He put over Orton twice (both on PPV)


Not clean, and not clean...(Brass knucks, Batista-ference)



Top line babyfaces rarely lose clean. Cena lost to Orlando Jordan via interference, no one's complaining that Cena didn't give OJ the rub. Orton takes those wins (along with 8000 others) becomes youngest champ. Good to see he overcame Michaels holding him down.

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Benoit beat him at WM and Backlash.

    I mean, he even lost to Daivari.


At WM HHH took the fall, I can't believe you even mentioned that. At Backlash, Shawn did tap out, and it was probably the next night where he quickly swept that under the rug, didn't give Benoit any credit for making him tap, and said Benoit couldn't beat him one-on-one. And this time, he was saying this to a babyface, so it stands out a little more, doncha think?

Come on, are you really counting Daivari?



Yeah, H took the fall, but Michaels also got his ass thoroughly beat. It was a dominating win for Benoit. Every wrestler ever never gives credit to his oppponent for beating him. Benoit won clean, what more can you ask for? And that was to set up the Raw one on one match.
Am I really counting Daivari? Well, everyone else is saying he doesn't put the young guys over.

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    I think people should get over what happened in the 90s.


Done. The stuff I'm talking about all happened in the last two years.



But it's all that stigma from the old days. When Shawn came back people expected same old same old. They're trying to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. I just don't see it. If anything, I think Shawn's being wasted in his role.

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    I actually think he should get a run with the belt (on Smackdown)


If it's to put someone over clean in a classic match for the title a few months later, I'm all for it.





Actually, I think he could be a draw with a six month run, on any given night he's one of the top two or three workers in the company, his back is seemingly healed. Who knows how long that'll hold up? Might as well give him a run on top.
They treat him like he's Hogan when he's a LOT younger than Hulk.


(edited by flairforthegold13 on 13.4.05 1051)

(edited by flairforthegold13 on 13.4.05 1053)
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.45
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    And yet, Edge has somehow managed to overcome being held down my Michaels to win the ladder match at WM, prolly main event SummerSlam and get a title run. What top babyface in the company loses clean?


Look at last year's SummerSlam.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
From: Gainesville, FL.

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.28
Quick apology, I butchered the formatting there and can't quite fix it. Still figuring out that stuff here, hope that post isn't to confusing to read.
Nenz
Fifty Millionth Hit








Since: 7.5.03

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Originally posted by flairforthegold13
      And yet, Edge has somehow managed to overcome being held down my Michaels to win the ladder match at WM, prolly main event SummerSlam and get a title run. What top babyface in the company loses clean?


    Look at last year's SummerSlam.


If you're talking about top babyfaces losing clean, I don't see how Goldberg being pinned after being hit by a slegehammer is clean.
Silva316
Braunschweiger








Since: 21.3.05
From: Philly's Chinatown

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.32
Clean heel-face loses in CHAMPIONSHIP matches is ok. But Shawna and Edge, Shawn and Jericho were not championship matches.

Goodness people, bash Michaels all you want, but bash him in a sensible way.

This is exactly what I meant by the heat I see on Shawn all around the internet. Folks just can't look past the bias and think a BIT more into the matter.



dun screw with mya!
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.28
He's refering to Benoit losing clean to Orton when he dropped the World title.

Okay, point conceded.
But, generally when a guy wins his first title it's usually clean, no matter whether the champ is babyface or heel, esp. in the WWE


Lesnar went over Rock clean.
Benoit went over H and Michaels clean
Orton went over Benoit clean
Cena went over JBL clean
Batista went over HHH clean
Big Show went over HHH clean


just for historical purposes let's also not that Austin beat Michaels clean at WM IV.

That's generally the exception.

And I'll concede to high heaven that Benoit will gladly do jobs all day long to anyone that will ask him too. He's a wonderful human being, he's the exception to the rule perhaps.

But overall, babyfaces are protected.
JoshMann
Andouille








Since: 17.11.03
From: Tallahassee, FL

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Y!:
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.77
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    He's refering to Benoit losing clean to Orton when he dropped the World title.

    Okay, point conceded.
    But, generally when a guy wins his first title it's usually clean, no matter whether the champ is babyface or heel, esp. in the WWE


    Lesnar went over Rock clean.
    Benoit went over H and Michaels clean
    Orton went over Benoit clean
    Cena went over JBL clean
    Batista went over HHH clean
    Big Show went over HHH clean


    just for historical purposes let's also not that Austin beat Michaels clean at WM IV.

    That's generally the exception.

    And I'll concede to high heaven that Benoit will gladly do jobs all day long to anyone that will ask him too. He's a wonderful human being, he's the exception to the rule perhaps.

    But overall, babyfaces are protected.



Using the same standard of "1st-ever title win of a babyface"...

NOT CLEAN:

Eddy over Brock (It kinda is, but there was still mitigating spearage involved)
Randy Savage over Ted Dibiase
Mankind over The Rock

One's an exception, three is an alternate booking style. Which fits when you consider that all three of those finishes are pretty similar to each other.



(edited by Blanket Jackson on 13.4.05 1433)

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Phantom
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.86
For those commenting on how Shawn buried Jericho at ‘Mania and how the loss completely damaged his career: Jericho’s career was already damaged at that point. First he gets left completely off the show at Backlash after losing to HHH the month before, then went on a months-long losing streak that included a clean tap-out to Ric Flair.
anarchistxx
Medisterpoelse








Since: 13.4.05
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.60
Why does it say I started this thread?

Anyways, I disagree with the Chris Jericho comments. Nobody complains that the 55+ year old Ric Flair went over Jericho cleanly at Summerslam 6 months previous. The only reasons they gripe ate HBK is because of his non-jobbing past.

HBK has a storied and infamous past, but I look at how he is now. He still gets pinned rarely, but he went up a fair bit in my reputation with him tapping to Angle. Angle is getting quite a list of people who have tapped. Hogan, Austin, HBK, Benoit, some of the biggest names in the business.




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