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The W - Current Events & Politics - Why do we do such silly things
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Bush Calls for Overhaul of U.S. Immigration System
WASHINGTON President Bush proposed a plan Wednesday that would allow illegal immigrants working in the United States to stay here if their employers vouch for their jobs.

Saying U.S. laws should allow workers to enter the country to fill the jobs Americans are not willing to take, Bush said: "We must make our immigration law more rational and more humane, and I believe we can do so without jeopardizing the livelihood of American citizens."

The "temporary worker program" (search) would also allow immigrants to come to the United States if they can prove they have a job lined up and they don't plan to stay here indefinitely.

"Over the generations, we have received energetic, ambitious, optimistic people from all over the world ... our country is a welcoming society," Bush said. "America is a stronger and better nation because of the hard work and faith and the entrepreneurial spirit of immigrants."

The president's plan aims to relieve the pressures on hotel maids, meat cutters, landscapers and a host of other illegal workers.

"There are some jobs in this country, in our growing economy, that Americans are not filling," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. "That presents an opportunity for workers from abroad who want to work."

The proposal comes in advance of a meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox (search) next week at the Summit of the Americas (search) in Monterrey, Mexico. Bush and Fox spoke by phone Wednesday morning to discuss the details Bush later provided in his speech.

The president had put immigration reform at the top of his agenda while campaigning for the presidency in 2000, but after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, it was placed on the back burner as administration officials and legislators worked to beef up border security.

Now that Bush is into his second campaign for the presidency, he hopes to expand support among the Hispanic community, which broke ranks in 2000 by voting in considerable numbers for the Republican candidate. About one-third of Hispanic voters supported Bush in 2000.

The proposal is also likely to sit well with business leaders who already employ illegal workers in low-wage jobs. Officials estimate that about 8 million illegal immigrants, half of them Mexican, live in the United States already, and work under fears of deportation.

The president's plan would allow workers who live in the United States a reprieve from deportation if employers agree to give them jobs for three years and are unable to find American citizens willing to do the job. Would-be immigrants would also be allowed to apply if they line up a job in the United States.

Under the plan, which would still have to be passed into law by Congress, illegal workers would pay a fee to apply immediately for a green card (search) for permanent U.S. residency. The applicant would still have to compete for the visa, but would not be deported for three years while the application is under consideration.

The number of green cards will be increased, said one official, but the total number of new cards is not yet decided. Currently, the United States issues 1 million green cards per year, though only 140,000 of them are employment-based. The program would be separate from the temporary visa program that allows technical experts to work in certain sectors of the economy or industry.

If workers' applications are not processed in the first three years of their employment a scenario seen as likely considering the number of expected applicants then workers would have to return to their countries to await final approval.

The administration has not said how it plans to enforce the rules it is considering, but argues the proposal would increase security in America by giving the government a better idea of where illegals are residing, by bolstering the economy through legitimizing work now being conducted under the table and by showing compassion to illegal workers in the United States.

Conservatives opposed to the idea of rewarding immigrants who break the law by illegally entering the United States say the president is basically giving blanket amnesty and encouraging more illegal immigration...


* * * *

The article goes on and on, but you get the point. I will never understand the need to completely sell out to big business by allowing this lunacy. Rewarding bad behavior is just asinine, especially considering the fact that we are allowing lawbreakers to stay here. Moronic regardless of the party.


(edited by Grimis on 7.1.04 1519)


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eviljonhunt81
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Since: 6.1.02
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.25
It is just a gross political move. I really can't imagine it ever happening, as it sounds next to impossible to implement. How are businesses supposed to prove they tried to get an American for whatever jobs? Nonsense, plain and simple. Why doesn't he just offer amnesty outright?



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Since: 28.1.02
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.72
    Originally posted by Grimis


    The article goes on and on, but you get the point. I will never understand the need to completely sell out to big business by allowing this lunacy. Rewarding bad behavior is just asinine, especially considering the fact that we are allowing lawbreakers to stay here. Moronic regardless of the party.


    (edited by Grimis on 7.1.04 1519)


But Grimis, they're here. They're not going anywhere. And, unlike others, they're working. Why not find 'em all, get 'em legal and get some taxes from them. Rewarding bad behavior, well, yes. But short of spending a few billion to round 'em up and truck 'em off to Mexico and other places, what are the options? It's gonna take BIG money to close the borders anyway and bigger money still to round up and deport all the illegals. Better to give 'em this once and get it (as much as we can) over with. Give 'em a BIG incentive to be legal and then make the laws against employing and illegal very, very repressive. Of course, this is the same argument people make for legalizing prostitution and Marijuana. Yikes. Let me re-evaluate my thoughts... No, I still agree with me.

Plus, dammit, we're an immigrant land. They're reaching for the dream, just like our forefathers did (3 generations back in my case) I guess there's a big difference between sneaking in under the fence in Arizona and going through Ellis Island, but I am sorry to say I don't know how much. My great grandad still had to work for next to nothin' his whole life, but his son was a steelworker, and his daughter married a steelworker and her son is a total mess.




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Since: 11.7.02
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    Plus, dammit, we're an immigrant land. They're reaching for the dream, just like our forefathers did (3 generations back in my case) I guess there's a big difference between sneaking in under the fence in Arizona and going through Ellis Island, but I am sorry to say I don't know how much.
I'm not against legal immigration, or political asylum, or any of that stuff that built this country. The fact of the matter is that the second illegal immigrants step foot on US soil they are fugitives, plain and simple. All we would be doing is rewarding bad behavior. Instead of doing the right thing(increasing border security and deporting the illegal immigrants we do find) we provide positive reinforcement to those considering sneaking into the country that they too will become legal aliens during some amnesty in the future.

Legal immigration is good. Illegal immigration is national suicide.



oldschoolhero
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Since: 2.1.02
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.22
"I'm not against legal immigration, or political asylum, or any of that stuff that built this country"

Riiiight. Because EVERY immigrant that turned up America's shores in the 1800s was 100% documented and accounted for. Come on, man, that's just lame.



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Since: 1.8.02
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
Gotta agree- this is one of the worst things he has done since he has taken office.

ILLEGAL immigrants broke the law to get here. They do not deserve to be rewarded for breaking the law. This sort of program is just going to put a huge neon sign on our border that says "Come here for services."

#1- We do not need to take care of Mexico's problems. Fox is shifting the burden on us to take care of his people, and that is just plain wrong.

#2- We are a nation of immigrants. I have no problem with immigrants. Immigration is good- in general, immigration is a good way to bring new ideas and new blood into our country- and a means for the best and the brightest from around the world to take part in what makes this country great. The illegal immigrants flooding across the borders are nothing more than economic refugees. Now I don't believe we shouldn't help where we can, but we can't take them all- there has to be order. That is what LEGAL means of immigration is all about. We have to be able to control as a nation who comes into our borders, and exactly how many we allow in.

This (reg. Req) LA times article is correct, close to half of the State of California's Budget deficit could be eliminated if the Federal government either stopped them from coming in in the first place, or make real steps to deport the illegals. The writer of the piece tries really, really hard to make it seem like "Illegal Immigrants aren't hurting our economy that much" - but it just does not fly. $4.6 BILLION dollars a year spent on non-citizens in a time when our state's credit rating is lower than Junk Bonds, and the politicians are screaming that we won't have enough money to pay for police and fire is just wrong. And you can't tell me that they pay that much in taxes, because it is just not true.

So where is the federal government in all of this? Sure, they vote for things like this stupid glorified amnesty thing Bush is proposing (because it sounds so good to be pro-immigrant), and there is little interest nationally in actually patrolling the border, little interest in keeping the illegal immigrants out and kicking the ones out that are already here because it is percieved as RACIST! - all because the 46 other states in the union couldn't give a rats ass that California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are awash in illegal immigrants. The feds allow them in, because it is popular, but it is up to those 4 states to pay for it, because no one else will vote to pony up the cash. Why SHOULD Delaware contribute tax money for illegal immigrants? Not their problem- but SURE! Let them on in!

So then there are those people that say that Illegal immigrants do jobs that Americans just won't do. I don't believe that for one second, but lets assume that argument is correct. A- so what? If that is a real issue, then work out a legal means to get the workers who will do the job here. But clean up the ILLEGAL mess first. Reagan granted amnesty, and everyone swore up and down that "this time, it will be different- we will control the borders!!!" Look at where we are now. Fool me once- this time around I say secure the border FIRST then we will talk about increasing the legal immigrant cap and instituting a guest worker program. And B- What is this, the south in the 19th century? No AMERICANS want to pick strawberries, so lets get then MEXICANS to do it at half the price! Why Stop there? Lets just start up slavery again, and save even more! I know that is sensational, but seriously- wages amount for about 10% of a product's cost. Even if it takes DOUBLING the wages of a worker doing these jobs Americans supposedly don't want to do, it won't cause any real difference in the price of the product.

And what about the unemployment rate? Aren't all of the "Anti-Bush" folks screaming about a jobless recovery? Kick all of the illegal immigrants out, and how many jobs will we have then? I am sorry, but if I had been out of work all of these months, and I had a family to feed, I would sure as hell be flipping burgers, shoveling shit, or doing ANY of those jobs Americans supposedly "won't do."

This pisses me off SO much because really, what am I going to do, vote for HOWARD DEAN?!?!?! I tell ya though, it has to go through Congress, and I don't care who is running against him- if Christopher Cox votes for this he is not getting my vote. I'll run to replace him my damned self if I have to....



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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.72
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy

    So where is the federal government in all of this? Sure, they vote for things like this stupid glorified amnesty thing Bush is proposing (because it sounds so good to be pro-immigrant), and there is little interest nationally in actually patrolling the border, little interest in keeping the illegal immigrants out and kicking the ones out that are already here because it is percieved as RACIST! - all because the 46 other states in the union couldn't give a rats ass that California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are awash in illegal immigrants. The feds allow them in, because it is popular, but it is up to those 4 states to pay for it, because no one else will vote to pony up the cash. Why SHOULD Delaware contribute tax money for illegal immigrants? Not their problem- but SURE! Let them on in!


To a grea extent I can see many of your arguements.But this one is BS. First, I am in the Louisville, KY area - actually live across the ditch in lovely hoosierville. And my friend, I am not checking green cards, but there seem to be a LOT of latinos in this area who ONLY pay cash for everything they buy and do. And they are hard-working SOBs and the crime rate has gone down since this seeming latino majority started to assert itself. So, is it our problem "in the middle?" Well, duh.

Is the Right thing to kick 'em out. Yes. Is it a practical thing? I say no. And the impractibility causes no national issue for me. Call the fee a fine, get 'em legal and get that tax money going.



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Since: 7.2.02

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.88
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    So then there are those people that say that Illegal immigrants do jobs that Americans just won't do. I don't believe that for one second, but lets assume that argument is correct. A- so what? If that is a real issue, then work out a legal means to get the workers who will do the job here.


You put this ALL on the people who come here...

How about employers who will only hire illegal immigrants to do certain jobs? It's not like they don't know who they are hiring - and they hire them for a reason.

People come here to better their lives - and when you are living in shit, you could really care less if someone's taxes go up because you got a job washing dishes to feed you family (which may not cut it, but it's still better than how you were living before).

And when costs of doing business in Mexico go up because their economy has improved, you are going to see a whole different group of people complaining - mainly American corporations who sent their factories south...


    Kick all of the illegal immigrants out, and how many jobs will we have then? I am sorry, but if I had been out of work all of these months, and I had a family to feed, I would sure as hell be flipping burgers, shoveling shit, or doing ANY of those jobs Americans supposedly "won't do."


You really think a manager of a McDonald's is going to hire someone with more education and more skills than they have to flip burgers for them? That's whose out of work these days....

Most people out of work with any skill set are not going to waste time flipping burgers and shoveling shit for minimum wage, rather than doing everything they can to find a job that actually can pays a living wage.

Back in high school, I remembering working with legals (I believe) who took the bus in from Santa Ana to Irvine to work at Pizza Hut full time for minimum wage. They worked harder - and got paid less - than any of the other employees there. And did the jobs no one else would do (or management wouldn't let do). And that they usually had two of these kinds of jobs to make ends meet.
ScreamingHeadGuy
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Since: 1.2.02
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.54
If this makes it past Congress, it will be vastly different from anything Mr. Bush proposed.



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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Illegal immigration - while not "national suicide" (if so this country should be dead long ago), has its drawbacks. It takes tax money out of the system, depresses wages, and exploits workers.

But I don't understand how everyone's FIRST reactions is to blame the immigrants. Illegals wouldn't spend a ton of money, risk life and freedom, and work like slaves if PEOPLE WOULDN'T HIRE THEM. It's that simple. Of course, it would be "anti-business" to suggest maybe going after the rich folks who want their children watched or their factories staffed or their gardens tended without all that hassle of record keeping or paying more than 5 bucks an hour. instead of the guy that's working like a slave to try and feed his family.

Honestly. It's like going after after the addicts and not the dealers. Make a plan for punishing people that exploit illegal workers and enforce it vigorously, and you won't need a fence. It's that simple, and lot easier and a ton cheaper (it's probably revenue positive for goodness sake) than trying to round up the 8 million folks here illegally and building a 2000 mile long fence.

You know what's "rewarding people for breaking the law?" Not having an amnesty and letting shysters keep paying these folks below minimum wage and avoid FICA contributions, worker comp insurance, and all the rest. Of course, I'm sure Grimis' solution is simply to do away with the minimum wage, worker's comp insurance, FICA, and all business taxes.

Now I know the anti-immigrants folks will probably go "yeah, yeah, that too." But that's not what they made a focus of or brought up. It's just one more example of conservatives chomping at the bit to punish poor people for everything and letting rich people get away with murder.



(edited by MoeGates on 7.1.04 1931)


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Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
You know, I do not doubt that there are illegal immigrants in other states besides those who share the border with Mexico. But there is simply no comparison in the sheer numbers that are here in southern California. Our infastructure just can't absorb more people- you can say that it is not *just* illegal immigrants, but it largely is. There are more legal citizens leaving this state than coming in, and our populartion is still growing. The birthrate among legal citizens is just over 2 per family- for ILLEGALS it is over FIVE per family.

You know what? You are right that it is not just the Illegals that are causing the problem. Buisnesses who hire them deserve to be punished as well.

My stance is, before I will EVER support any kind of guest worker program, the following things have to happen.

1- The border must be CLOSED. I am not talking about legal immigrants, I am talking about the millions streaming across the borders. There are heavily armed coyotes transporting people across the Arizona desert on a daily basis- for better equipped than our joke of a border patrol, which is not allowed to engage them anyway. The amount of money the kind of program Bush is talking about is obscene- can you imagine the buerocracy that is going to be required to get that up and running? Put that money towards closing down our borders, and keep the people who do not go through the LEGAL processes out.

2- Buisnesses who hire illegal immigrants need to be punished. A system must be in place (the IRS is a good place to start) to verify that the buisness is accurately reporting the number of workers it employs, and checks must be made to ensure that all workers have the proper documentation.

3- There must be a system in place to deport the illegals who are here. This is a HUGE problem, as many of them have kids who are citizens because they were born here. My solution to this is to ship the families out, grant the children dual citizenship, then when they are 18 they can return to the country if they so choose.

4- Mexico needs to recipricate, and start cooperating with US more. How about extraditing criminals, murderers, and cop killers it is refusing to hand over.

I agree that many of the illegals are just economic refugees seeking a better life. I bear them no ill-will, but we just can't absorb everyone. We have to have control over how many people we allow in this country, who we help. I hear the argument all the time that we are not the "police of the world." Well, to an extent that is true, but we do have a duty to help make the world a safer place where appropriate. Along those lines, we are not the MOTHER of the world. We have a duty to help out where we can, but to throw open the border and just let anyone who wants to to trot across the border and become a drain on our society would be highly destructive.

I think there were somewhere around 4 million illegals who were granted amnesty with Regans plan. They swore UP AND DOWN that it would be a one time amnesty, and that the border would be secured. There are now, less than 20 years later, over five times as many illegal aliens in this country than there were then. Clearly it was a problem then, and a glorified solution was implemented for PR, and it made matters worse.

Fix OUR problem first before you try and help others fix theirs.



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MoeGates
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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
I personally like the country a lot better than in 1986. I keep hearing what a drain and how awful immigrants are, but I have yet to see any proof that immigrants - legal or otherwise - are anything but a godsend. It might just be because I live in New York, where international immigration saved this town from the fate of all the other old Eastern and Midwestern cities that didn't experience it. Go to Cleveland or Baltimore or Pittsburgh (sorry OFB) if you want to see what New York would be like without immigrants.

I agree with a lot of your points - but one you forget you need to massively increase legal immigration and make it a lot easier. The demand is there. If it were being met by legal immigrants, you wouldn't need all the money spent on playing goalie.

And incidentaly, the market kinds of works itself out when it comes to this (don't you conservatives love that kind of stuff?) Here in New York (and also in Chicago and a lot of places in the South) we're seeing a huge influx of Mexicans leaving California precisely because the job market can't handle all of them anymore.

3- There must be a system in place to deport the illegals who are here. This is a HUGE problem, as many of them have kids who are citizens because they were born here. My solution to this is to ship the families out, grant the children dual citizenship, then when they are 18 they can return to the country if they so choose.


This is 100% unconstitutional (and essentially what killed prop... 13 was it?). I don't know what you "grant" the kids, since they're American citizens. You can't deport American citizens. And this country leared long ago that you cannot have second-class citizens, with different rights and responsibilities. If you want to try amend the constitution to redefine citizenship, that's one thing (not every county automatically grants citizenship to those born there), that's one thing. But it is utterly un-American to deny fundamental rights to certain U.S. citizens and not to others based on something they have no control over.

EDIT: I cna't diss OFB's town AND misspell its name.


(edited by MoeGates on 8.1.04 0047)


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Lexus
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Since: 2.1.02
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.55
The only problem I have is that we're only opening the gates so people can take the yuck work. There are no mentions whatsoever to people entering the country and practicing a profession, IE Medicine, Law, etc. There are people who come into this country, highly educated at that, that can not be qualified to practice here. Granted, Law would be a bit tricky, but a knowledge of English Common Law (which is almost everywhere in civilized countries) and access to past cases should allow someone to pass the bar exam.

It's just kind of strange that we'll welcome people to dig ditches, but not those to build bridges. Why can't people come in and perform jobs that others WOULD perform?

That's the only skew I see in all of this (other than it all sounds like hot air).





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Since: 1.8.02
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    I agree with a lot of your points - but one you forget you need to massively increase legal immigration and make it a lot easier.

    ......

    (shipping the kids out with their parents)This is 100% unconstitutional (and essentially what killed prop... 13 was it?).


On your first point, I agree. But fix the border first. I don't know so much about making it easier, but sure, I am all for increasing the number of legal immigrants. As long as we have control. But making it easier is a bad idea I think... coming here and becoming a citizen should be a somewhat difficult process - not impossible, of course, we just shouldn't hand it out like candy.

As to your second point- the constitutionality of that is not so clear. Sure, if there was a reasonable way to keep the kids in the country (who ARE citizens), then I would be all for it. But the fact is, the children are minors, and not able to make those decisions on their own. And to turn around and tell the parents they can stay just because they managed to sneak over the border and pop out a kid is just silly.

So what do we do? The constitution may have to be ammended, but that problem does need to be addressed. The children are, of course, welcome here as citizens, but it would be far more cruel to take them from their families than to give them the option to return later.

(edited by Pool-Boy on 7.1.04 2323)


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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    It might just be because I live in New York, where international immigration saved this town from the fate of all the other old Eastern and Midwestern cities that didn't experience it. Go to Cleveland or Baltimore or Pittsburgh (sorry OFB) if you want to see what New York would be like without immigrants.
But that's not true either, because Clevleand is full of descendants of Eastern European, Baltimore Italians and Poles, and Pittsburgh Poles too. All of these cities have an ethnic flavor to them from immigration.

And Baltimore, incidentally, is a city on the rise(sort of). Maryland also have scores of illegal immigrants because Montgomery County gives them FULL social services a la California.

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Of course, I'm sure Grimis' solution is simply to do away with the minimum wage, worker's comp insurance, FICA, and all business taxes.
The minimum wage depresses the job market and inflates prices. FICA taxes are the only regressive income tax liberals can ever get behind.

Now businesses taxes? Let's close the loopholes and lower the tax rate and we'll be fine...

    Originally posted by Lexus
    There are no mentions whatsoever to people entering the country and practicing a profession, IE Medicine, Law, etc. There are people who come into this country, highly educated at that, that can not be qualified to practice here.
I'm MD we do have lots of immigrants doing qualified stuff. Half of the computer folks I know are Indian...



AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.69
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Lexus
      There are no mentions whatsoever to people entering the country and practicing a profession, IE Medicine, Law, etc. There are people who come into this country, highly educated at that, that can not be qualified to practice here.
    I'm MD we do have lots of immigrants doing qualified stuff. Half of the computer folks I know are Indian...


And plenty of Doctors, that's for sure. Urology, especially (46 year olds know about that).

Look, immigration is fine. Here would be my steps:

1. Basically, say, Today's the day. If you're in, you're in. Come in for a card and you'll get it unless you're a criminal.

2. Close the borders to illegals

3. Place oppresive fines and penalties on companies and individuals who hire illegals after that.



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MoeGates
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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by MoeGates
      It might just be because I live in New York, where international immigration saved this town from the fate of all the other old Eastern and Midwestern cities that didn't experience it. Go to Cleveland or Baltimore or Pittsburgh (sorry OFB) if you want to see what New York would be like without immigrants.
    But that's not true either, because Clevleand is full of descendants of Eastern European, Baltimore Italians and Poles, and Pittsburgh Poles too. All of these cities have an ethnic flavor to them from immigration.

    And Baltimore, incidentally, is a city on the rise(sort of). Maryland also have scores of illegal immigrants because Montgomery County gives them FULL social services a la California.


    Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't referring to the 1880-1924 wave of immigration (which built America as we know it,), I was referring to the 1980-present wave of immigrants. Without the first wave New York would still be little more than a trading post. Look at the cities that are doing well nowdays vs. the ones that aren't. The ones that are generally have a huge immigrant population.

    As for Baltimore, it doesn't really have anywhere to go but up (although I'll believe it's on the upswing when I see it). And isn't Montgomery County one of the most desireable places to live in in Maryland, if not America? Seems like immigrants haven't hurt them any.



      Originally posted by MoeGates
      Of course, I'm sure Grimis' solution is simply to do away with the minimum wage, worker's comp insurance, FICA, and all business taxes.
    The minimum wage depresses the job market and inflates prices. FICA taxes are the only regressive income tax liberals can ever get behind.

    Now businesses taxes? Let's close the loopholes and lower the tax rate and we'll be fine...


    I agree Dems need to start talking about making FICA a more progressive system. As for the minimum wage, even if anyone outside the ivory-tower conservative academic think-tank world agreed with that economic assement, there is something to be said for the quality of jobs, not the jobs itself. Or maybe you want everyone making 13 cents an hour, instead of almost everyone making a decent living.



      Originally posted by Lexus
      There are no mentions whatsoever to people entering the country and practicing a profession, IE Medicine, Law, etc. There are people who come into this country, highly educated at that, that can not be qualified to practice here.
    I'm MD we do have lots of immigrants doing qualified stuff. Half of the computer folks I know are Indian...


Very true. Most slots (80% I think) are given on the basis of family reunification, but most of the rest are given on the basis of having a needed skill, which lately has been various high-tech stuff.

Incidentaly, this is why our immigration system works and Europe's doesn't. Because we let people in who have either family, a job, or the ability to easily get a job, we make sure that recent immigrants already have an economic means of support. Europe lets people in mostly based on guilt over colonialism, and more often than not they have no support network or economic means. So Europe makes sure to keep them on the government dole forever while they give them stuff like assimilation classes (ignoring the fact that the best assimilation class is probably getting out there and working). They would rather immigrants take government assistance than get a job.

We have immigrants. Europe has refugees. This coupled with the insane racism in Europe - its Dr. Hyde to its guilt-ridden Jekyll - is why we have built a wildly succesful nation based on immigration and they are self-destructing over it.

Europe's Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde thing when it comes to issues of race and colonialism also explains why they hate Israel so much, but that's another post for another thread.

(edited by MoeGates on 8.1.04 2242)


I wonder how much money George W. Bush gave Paris Hilton.
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 46 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.96
This is B.S. Just rename this the "Protection of Cheap Labor Act". Here's the deal, the whole idea that 'there are jobs that Americans won't do' is complete bunk. Just think, take any job that Americans won't do, make the wage $1000/hour, see if Americans still won't do the job. Obviously they would. What is happening with these jobs is that the forces of demand and supply have come up with a solution that the companies don't like. A lot of these jobs have poor working conditions, not much reward. Thus the market is demanding a premium in order for people to decide that they are willing to put up with an otherwise poor job (ie a job shovelling shit should pay pretty well, even if many are qualified, because you have put up with shovelling shit and thus not many workers would line up for such a job unless there was pretty good pay for it.) The system is working as it should, but American companies simply don't want to pay the higher wage. The solution: temporary foriegn workers. This does two things: a) increase the worker supply, driving down wages and b) introduces different economies of scale into this economy, ie a $5.75/hour wage is a lot of money to one who normally earns $0.50 an hour. It represents a significant raise to those people, while it's as low as you can go here.

Trust me, this is being done for the benefit of the American businesses, not due to some sympathy for immigrants.

Another thing this does is enables companies to keep poor working conditions poor. If the meat cutting industry had to hire Americans at the fair market wages that they would have to pay given the working conditions at those plants, I guarantee you they would figure out some way to make it both safer and more tolerable.

Of course, another thing this will do is only encourage more illegal immigration. This is not the first time we've granted amnesty. Any time we do, others will feel that it's worth the risk to slip into this nation, because you never know, we might do it again (grant amnesty). We need to decide as a nation whether it is important to protect our borders and control immigration or not. If it is, we don't grant amnesty. If it is not, we need to drop the whole system and just go with open borders. I tend to think it is important to control immigration (for the same reasons stated above, among others).



Everything that is wrong in this world can be blamed on Freddie Prinze Jr.
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