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The W - Pro Wrestling - Where they may have gotten the Kane idea from...
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CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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#1 Posted on
Yes, yes, I know. ANOTHER Kane thread, but hopefully this one is justified.

Seeing JR address the fact last night that Kane ISN'T a monster was a pleasant surprise, knowing. And then JR tried to ask him -- at least I think that's what he was trying to ask -- `have you ever taken a look at yourself in the mirror?'

It made me think of the film Identity, and I wondered if the plot wasn't lifted from there. Not trying to spoil anything for those who haven't seen it (so maybe stop reading..... now), but John Cusack's character in the movie is one who thinks he's a normal guy who happens to look like John Cusack, but when he sees himself in the mirror... he's actually a large, bald man. Also, he's acting out the lives of several people, but that's irrelevant to where I'm going here...

So the parallel I drew is: Perhaps Kane THINKS he's scarred. But because he killed his doctors and all that, he doesn't really know he looks like a normal guy. And if that is indeed the case, perhaps Vince can finally capitalize on the `subtle psychotic' gimmick they were going for with Waylon Mercy and (at first) Nathan Jones.

I would love to see them develop Kane as a man who hears voices, doesn't really what he looks like, is overly paranoid, etc., etc., in other words, crazy. That would be one hell of a character, in my opinion.

Or, maybe I'm just making something of nothing and no one thought of `Identity' when writing the Kane storyline....




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Crip
Mettwurst








Since: 1.3.03

Since last post: 3861 days
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#2 Posted on
I think there is something to the "Kane wasn't really burned as badly as he believe's angle". In fact, I think its quite clever (clearly a case of WWE stumbling across it) that it is revealad the char on his face is just added (by himself) and since the burning incident Kane has actually been scarred MENTALLY and not physically but has been living the lie that he has been scarred physically.



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SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#3 Posted on
Yeah, but didn't Paul Bearer, The Undertaker, Tori, X-Pac and all them corroborate that Kane was, in fact, scarred? Bearer would know first-hand since he was the guy who locked him in the cage and fed him fish heads for years.

I see what they're doing with the Kane character and it may be working for the moment, and it isn't a bad change of character for Glenn Jacobs, but this is a pretty weak excuse for something that has been pointed out by more than just Kane himself.



"If you're asking if I would ever date a wrestler, certainly I would. However it wouldn't be good business for me to get romantically involved with anyone in any aspect of our business."
-Stephanie McMahon (Off the Record, June 3rd, 1999)
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 11 days
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#4 Posted on

    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    Yeah, but didn't Paul Bearer, The Undertaker, Tori, X-Pac and all them corroborate that Kane was, in fact, scarred? Bearer would know first-hand since he was the guy who locked him in the cage and fed him fish heads for years.

    I see what they're doing with the Kane character and it may be working for the moment, and it isn't a bad change of character for Glenn Jacobs, but this is a pretty weak excuse for something that has been pointed out by more than just Kane himself.



But conceivably most of the folks who have seen Kane had some reason to lie to him. Bearer could have attempted to gain control of him through having him believe he was a monster, X-pac would have wanted to humiliate him etc.

On top of that, as was shown in the interview tonight the story is that Kane has reached a level of psychosis where by even when people tell him he's not deformed he doesnt believe them. His brother and Tori may have tried to but he presumably would have thought they were sparing his feelings.

And regardless of any of this I have a real hard time believing that the average fan would be so eager to pick holes in the story line. We all accept inconsistencies all the time, some big, some small. We know that peoples fighting abilities shouldn't really depend on whether they're faces or heels, that wrestlers often undergo huge character or name changes without real explanation etc. and we accept that.



CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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#5 Posted on

    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    Yeah, but didn't Paul Bearer, The Undertaker, Tori, X-Pac and all them corroborate that Kane was, in fact, scarred?



And.... except for 'Taker, all of them have been fired. Maybe they were just LYING!!!!



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odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 94 days
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.41

I assumed it was a Dr. Doom thing.

Byrne did a story where Doom's scar was not horrifying terrible, but he blew it completely out of whack in his head.

Of course, he then went and put that hot iron mask on his face, making the point moot.





"Any time you find yourself questioning whether God really exists, just remember that Bill Laimbeer is stuck coaching the Detroit Shock." -- Bill Simmons
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#7 Posted on

    Originally posted by dMr
    But conceivably most of the folks who have seen Kane had some reason to lie to him. Bearer could have attempted to gain control of him through having him believe he was a monster, X-pac would have wanted to humiliate him etc.

    On top of that, as was shown in the interview tonight the story is that Kane has reached a level of psychosis where by even when people tell him he's not deformed he doesnt believe them. His brother and Tori may have tried to but he presumably would have thought they were sparing his feelings.

    And regardless of any of this I have a real hard time believing that the average fan would be so eager to pick holes in the story line. We all accept inconsistencies all the time, some big, some small. We know that peoples fighting abilities shouldn't really depend on whether they're faces or heels, that wrestlers often undergo huge character or name changes without real explanation etc. and we accept that.



Then, how come JR himself was freaking out about how hideously scarred Kane was when he unmasked a few weeks back? He certainly had no reason to lie. Kane couldn't hear him. We were the audience that Jim Ross was talking to.

Here we had some bald coal miner-looking guy and even people online saying stuff like "Hey, I like Kane's new look!" Did the fans lie, too? Then, WWE goes and changes it to being "just a regular guy" the next week.

The truth is, Kane WAS physically and hideously scarred according to the storylines, and they just switched it on us in a week's time. With that kind of Attention Deficit Disorder-style booking, and lack of detail, they fail to form storylines that really involve people, because once they get involved, they become uninvolved as soon as WWE changes the story again.

I think a lot of fans pay attention to the subtle details in storylines, if only on a subconscious level. If it is true that fans don't analyze the storylines that much, then that shows me that there isn't a strong involvement to either the product itself, or the Kane character itself. That's not going to help things.



"If you're asking if I would ever date a wrestler, certainly I would. However it wouldn't be good business for me to get romantically involved with anyone in any aspect of our business."
-Stephanie McMahon (Off the Record, June 3rd, 1999)
CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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#8 Posted on
Look -- I'm not trying to say that their own internal logic is justified; it isn't. When has the WWE ever been consistent?
All I'm saying is this would be a great way to handle the storyline going forward. And it's consistent with the JR interview yesterday.



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dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 1 day
#9 Posted on
Look, I'm not denying for a second that they probably did consider Kane to be scarred for the longest time, maybe until very recently. However JR's reaction can still be explained by the shock of seeing the guys hair falling out allied to the mess his eye make up had gotten into and the natural 'beauty' of Glen Jacobs. They then had JR 'get used' to how Kane looked after the initial shock and he realised it wasnt that bad.

And cripes you can't claim a lack of continuity due to what people said on wrestling boards. It is just about possible that Kane, y'know, didnt read these posts. Maybe he was busy that week. Maybe he doesnt have internet access. Maybe he's just flat-out got more of a life than us

IMO it doesnt show a lack of involvement ot overlook some of the more intricate details of storylines, quite the opposite. It shows that fans are willing to overlook slight flaws because they buy into the overall storyline.



CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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#10 Posted on
All good points, DMR.

Another thing to consider: there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the WWE could write an explanation to everything that has happened to the Undertaker and Kane since Kane's arrival.

It started off that Undertaker killed Kane and his parents in a fire during his childhood. Except that Kane survived, and actually it was him who killed his parents (whom he and Paul Bearer dug up so the whole family could appear on RAW, kind of like the McMahons). But, wait -- no it was Undertaker who killed the parents after all; didn't he admit that at one point?

And then Kane was locked away for his entire life since the fire until he attacked The Undertaker at Badd Blood.... However, Paul Bearer didn't lock him away, he was actually Kane's father. But wait -- didn't Kane date Katie Vick in high school or something, or when he was a young wrestler? But according to last night, he's been scarred his entire life, and he'd never seen himself....



I think ScoopThis did a parody on this whole thing a few years ago, but for the life of me I can't find that one in their archives....



An exclusive interview with The Rock? The REAL IWC 100?
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RKMtwin
Boudin rouge








Since: 1.3.02
From: Denver, Colorado

Since last post: 2149 days
Last activity: 1593 days
#11 Posted on
I think it's safe to say that WWE pulled a rabbit out of the hat with Kane. And you know what? I WANT to see what happens next. If WWE would have done this with Kane sooner, well... good thing they're doing it now. It's brought about fans' interest for sure.

Anyway, my two (KAYFABE) cents' worth is this--

If Kane is so convinced that he's a monster and that, it seems to me that he's also taken great pains in the past to maintain that. When Rob Van Dam tried to shake Kane from his neurosis, this self-imposed torment, it was something Kane couldn't accept.

Kane, over all these years, has gotten used to the idea that he's a monster to the point that he feels some kind of comfort or solace in this condition. Kane makes himself a victim. And I have a problem with that. It seems to me that Kane exists in this vicious cycle, a la (for lack of a better comparison0 a person who stays involved in an abusive friendship or romantic relationship.

On one hand, we as fans should pity Kane. But the problem is, Kane WANTS people to feel SORRY for him, because it justifies his behavior, ergo, validating his existence.

I wanted to cheer Kane until last night. But the burning of Good Ol' JR was the line Kane shouldn't have crossed. Kane has to be taken down for his own good by RVD or Steve Austin... or maybe the person who is TRULY responsible for Kane's condition.

Essentially, this person has been living a life that he's always wanted. From Texas, to the NWA/WCW, to the big time- the WWF/E, it's odd that this person has had a storied career, numerous championships, a devoted following of fans and a beautiful wife. And even though there was a point where this person was openly worshipping EVIL, people still forgave him and opened back up to him willingly. Kane's never had such luck. To me, Kane isn't the only person who should face the consequences of this situation. It should also be the one who started this all when he accidentally started a fire long ago.

Bischoff is wrong. Steve Austin didn't start this. RVD is wrong. He's not responsible either. Only one person is. And he must free Kane from his self-imposed imprisonment of the mind, while also coming to terms with what he did long ago, even though it WAS an accident.

That person is the Undertaker.
______________________________

Damn I read too much PWI when I was a kid!



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sergeial
Boerewors








Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 3004 days
Last activity: 2920 days
#12 Posted on
Another place they could have gotten the idea is This Very Weinerboard! Over four months ago a weiner proposed almost the identical booking idea. I went looking for it because after all this time I thought it was my idea, but I discovered that it was actually Krakken2000, I had just chimed in with a "Yeah, that would be cool." Here's a link to the thread:

http://wienerboard.com/thread.php/id=10459#127381

OK, I'm not saying that they really got the idea from Krakken. Actually I don't think they had a hell of a lot of other options, barring an effective makeup job that Kane would have to use night in and night out, and that could never fade or smudge in the middle of a match.

And I agree with Bulldog, this is a character concept full of possibilities and potential. For now, they have a really scary concept. This gigantic bald man who is convinced that he is horribly burned, and might kill you if he gets it into his head that you are mocking him is really freaking scary. Later, he might start to recover, and become a gentle giant who used to be crazy, and whose dark side you might bring out if you piss him off sufficiently.

I can totally see Kane someday giving a promo where he says something like, "Your right, Glen Jacobs can't beat you, so I've invited someone to take my place in our match who will destroy you. That's right, you're not going to face Glen Jacobs at Wrestlemania, you're going to face KANE!" Cue spooky organ music...

Sorry about the fantasy booking, I'm just really excited about the possibilities of this new direction.

sergei



"A true champion knows how to deal with adversity."-- Kurt Angle
shea
Bockwurst








Since: 1.2.02
From: Brooklyn NY

Since last post: 3966 days
Last activity: 3852 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.74
Look, whichever way they want to explain away the scarring nonsense, the fact is that at the end of the day you're still left with a big bald doofus.

Hard to come off like a "monster" if you look like that.

Taking the mask off was really stupid, and yet another example of WWE lazy-eye scriptwriting.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1953 days
Last activity: 1887 days
#14 Posted on
"Look, whichever way they want to explain away the scarring nonsense, the fact is that at the end of the day you're still left with a big bald doofus.

Hard to come off like a "monster" if you look like that."

Yeah, being near-seven foot with muscles where mosy people have none just doesn't cut it any more.



I Took The Father, I'll Take The Son

Alessandro
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Worcester MA

Since last post: 50 days
Last activity: 2 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.04

    Originally posted by Krakken2000
    I've always thought a decent way to deal with the lack of scars would be to say that he never was scarred. Paul
    Bearer, in order to control Kane, convinced him he was scarred. Over time Kane began to see these scars as
    real. Such as when he looks in the mirror all he sees is a burned , disfigured face, when in reality he looks no
    different than you or I. Maybe have him lose the mask in a match where he runs away with his face covered,
    someone...perhaps RVD runs backstage to his aid. RVD finds him cowered in fear in the darkness and when
    Kane reveals himself RVD is shocked to see no scars. The next week either Paul Bearer or UT come out to
    reveal the truth about Kane.

    This leads to a slow rehabiliation of Kane's psyche, where he slowly starts to accept the real Kane.

    But you might be able to do a split personality storyline where, when overstressed Kane reverts back to his old
    masked self. Maybe he as a good side and a bad side, ala Two Face? He could feud with RVD while also
    teaming him with him. Maybe RVD is so committed to their friendship that he won't abandon the struggle to
    bring kane back to sanity, even if they have to have a few knock down drag out fights...



Somebody find this guy a lawler; that's gimmick infringement





Alessandro "Hercules" Boondy



Jackson
Sujuk








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 1956 days
Last activity: 1482 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.10
How is The Undertaker going to help explain anything? All this fuss over how to handle this Kane thing and nothing about the fact that Taker just quit being AN UNDEAD ZOMBIE FROM HELL once he took up motorcycle riding.



Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54


    How is The Undertaker going to help explain anything? All this fuss over how to handle this Kane thing and nothing about the fact that Taker just quit being AN UNDEAD ZOMBIE FROM HELL once he took up motorcycle riding.


Well, they never actually said that Undertaker was a zombie. The fanwanking of his origin could be that he was just a really, really tough guy enamored with the "dark side" and thus dressed accordingly. Of course, he gave this up once he took up motorcycle riding, and who could resist those bah gawd beautiful Titan bikes?




Over 1700 posts and still never a Wiener of the Day! But I'm not bitter!




Your NBA semi-finalists, folks........



Jackson
Sujuk








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 1956 days
Last activity: 1482 days
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.10
Yeah, youíre right. Taker was just your normal Goth kid. One who grew up in the same mortuary as Kane, got his powers from a gold urn and can rise from the dead but, other than that, perfectly normal. Letís get back to the gripping mystery behind his little brother's unnecessary mask.



krakken2000
Kishke








Since: 31.10.02
From: seattle

Since last post: 1967 days
Last activity: 1694 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.36
    Originally posted by sergeial
    Another place they could have gotten the idea is This Very Weinerboard! Over four months ago a weiner proposed almost the identical booking idea. I went looking for it because after all this time I thought it was my idea, but I discovered that it was actually Krakken2000, I had just chimed in with a "Yeah, that would be cool." Here's a link to the thread:

    http://wienerboard.com/thread.php/id=10459#127381




If I write something along the lines of "stop making Brock such a dork!" will that come true as well?



(edited by krakken2000 on 15.7.03 1649)


Let Palmer Live!
Swordsman Yen
Frankfurter








Since: 16.2.02
From: Shaolin

Since last post: 3903 days
Last activity: 3887 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Well you know something, Mean Gene...

    Originally posted by krakken2000
      Originally posted by sergeial
      Another place they could have gotten the idea is This Very Weinerboard! Over four months ago a weiner proposed almost the identical booking idea. I went looking for it because after all this time I thought it was my idea, but I discovered that it was actually Krakken2000, I had just chimed in with a "Yeah, that would be cool." Here's a link to the thread:

      http://wienerboard.com/thread.php/id=10459#127381




    If I write something along the lines of "stop making Brock such a dork!" will that come true as well?



    (edited by krakken2000 on 15.7.03 1649)



Vince: You're a genius, krakken! You have saved my company!

Vince's lawyer: Please sign this affidavit saying that you didn't save the WWE.



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