I've been reading so many threads these past few weeks and one thing has remained constant.
Why isn't Raven on Raw? Raven should be on Raw! Raven would make this show so much better! Wow, Raven was on Raw for 5 seconds! That's AWESOME! Raven's coming back! Now Raw will kick ass!
Uh...am I missing something?
I loved Raven's ECW and WCW work as much as the next guy. But am I the only one who's noticed that his latest WWF/E run has bombed? Every time Raven's been on Raw these days, he's jobbed and he hasn't been a part of any good angle. And the more he's given a chance to shine, the more he blows it. I remember his PPV match with William Regal last year and his match with Tajiri the next night on Raw and they were both HORRIBLE and I definitely heard "boring" chants break out.
What I'm getting to is, since when is Raven such a hot commodity? I know so many guys are hoping for a recreation of his ECW/WCW persona and success, but come on! Do you really think Raven will be taken seriously by the fans when he comes back to Raw?
It ain't 1995 ECW, people!
I'll see YOU at Wrestlemania X-9! Hey, Rocky! You're Next!
You say you loved Raven's ECW/WCW act, so that tells me that you agree Raven has potential, and he does. Raven has a good track record as a worker and an even better one as a storyteller.
Yes, Raven's time in WWE to date has been a flop, but ask why. Outside of his three or four month hardcore title stint at the start of 2001 no one has cared about Raven, with that I agree. But what reason has WWE given the fans to care about Raven? None whatsoever. If you treat a guy as filler he'll be received as filler.
There are two options now - either WWE has something planned for Raven, or they've just decided they need a new heel job guy now that Stevie Richards is hooked up with Victoria. If it's the latter, well, I think it's a shame but it's no worse than what he's been doing. If it's the former, however, and they finally have come up with an idea for Raven, it may just take off. Go back and watch a tape of Raven when he was hardcore champion. He had a story, his matches entertained, and he was over. He was actually ready to be moved up the card in a Euro title feud with Eddie Guerrero until Eddie went off the deep end and Raven got lost in the Invasion shuffle. Give him something to work with, and I'd expect Raven to make it work.
You might also find that fans are ready to give Raven a fresh start of sorts. Since the Invasion ended, Raven was on regular (ie. Raw/Smackdown) TV for all of about two months before being banished. That's 2 months out of the past 14 that he's been on TV, enough time for the character to come back looking fresh. So few people watch Heat and Velocity that to the majority of fans Raven has been gone completely for that time, and his basic character is still intact for the sake of continuity for those who do watch Heat.
Fact is, WWE needs capable new faces. Raven has proven himself capable in different environments, and to the majority he'd be a new face. The question is, what do they do with him?
Hmmmm, could it be because he's one of the most creative minds in wrestling? That he was the main reason that ECW developed a cult following? That when given just a little bit of an opportunity in WCW, he became the hottest heel in that company outside of the nWo?
Is he a great wrestler? No, never has been a great wrestler but he's a good brawler and he can tell a story with a match as good as anyone. He's not gonna get over based on his ringwork, he needs the promo time. Heck with a little bit of promo time on Heat, he gets tons of heat.
So you're saying he's bombed because he hasn't gotten any good angles? I think you answered your own question. Give him some mic time, give him something to sink his teeth into and he'll get over.
He had a bad match with Regal ... When's the last good Regal match you saw? Quick name it. The last time I remember Raven really getting anything was his run as the Hardcore Champion when he got a great match out of Rhyno and was actually having creative Hardcore matches instead of the usual redundant ones.
But like I said, he's not gonna get over based on his ringwork alone. He needs to talk and he needs to do it infront of the crowd to get over.
He's a hot commodity because he has that ability to be a great pure heel. We've seen it before and if they give him the chance, he can do it again. In a time when everyone is bitching about guys with no mic skills, one of the best talkers in the business has been wasting away on Heat.
Will they let Raven be Raven on RAW? We're about to find out.
As for Benoit, is it such a crime to enjoy a guy who is one of the best workers in the history of wrestling? Sure his promos suck, sure he's never gonna be the 'man' but not everyone has to be. He can get over based on his work and be a valuable asset. But oh yeah, I forgot the crowd was dead for him in all those matches with Austin and Jericho and HHH and Angle or all those matches in WCW with DDP, Raven, Bret, Booker, etc. Nah, he's never ever been over.
The thing about Raven is that he can be awesome when booked correctly, but only when he was in ECW was he booked correctly. WCW failed with him, and WWE has failed with him. He's rapidly approaching 40, so if they want to start booking him smartly, they better do it now. But seeing as how they've taken RVD and Kane, and made them COMEDY figures, I don't see much hope for Raven. His best bet is probably to head-up creative, because the guy is very smart, and has proven he can book good television, which WWE needs very badly in 2003.
And if that's the direction they go with Raven, having him work with the book from time to time, then that's a good thing for him and for us. HOWEVER - I honestly feel the same way about Raven many posters here in this thread do: he's bombed because he hasn't been given anything. The Moppy story with Saturn was terrible. But he's shown an ability to be so much more... his feud with Tommy Dreamer in ECW is one I'll never forget, and his dying Flock days in WCW was a favorite WCW period of mine. So I'm all for Raven getting at least ONE chance to shine in the WWE. Hell, we could be getting a lot worse if he did(Albert/A-Train, anyone?).
I have to agree with the initial post, its not 1995 anymore. Buzz Sawyer and Tommy Rich had an intense blood feud in the early 80's in Georgia. Did anyone give a shit about them 7-8 years later. NO. Shane Douglas was great in ECW in 94-95. Does anyone want him in the WWF/E right now? Not particulary. Now, if its giving Raven control of some booking ideas, I like that. However, the Raven of the mid 90's is dead.
I want you to know, I agree with everything I've just said.
More than anything, Raven needs long-term stoylines to get over. Long-term storylines have never been the WWE's style at all, especially with anyone less than chronic main-eventers. The whole Raven-push thing is just never going to happen in the WWE because of this.
It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Aphrodite, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Spider-Man, and Boston.
Originally posted by redsoxnationI have to agree with the initial post, its not 1995 anymore. Buzz Sawyer and Tommy Rich had an intense blood feud in the early 80's in Georgia. Did anyone give a shit about them 7-8 years later. NO. Shane Douglas was great in ECW in 94-95. Does anyone want him in the WWF/E right now? Not particulary. Now, if its giving Raven control of some booking ideas, I like that. However, the Raven of the mid 90's is dead.
Enough said. Ahmed Johnson was also very popular at one point. Same as Ultimate Warrior, Tatanka, and even Lex Luger. So what?? Shawn Michaels is a shell of the superstar he was five years ago. Same goes for Raven, who is either the second- or third-oldest wrestler on the WWE's roster.
There wouldn't be much point in clamouring for the return of Shane Douglas. The guy's pissed so many people off over the years, he'd never be welcome in wwe (or nwa:tna probably)
Raven would be better off chacter wise if he left and went to NWATNA. He'd be an instant upper level wrestler who could also help get some of the young talent over. I would pay for those damn NWATNA shows if something like that were to happen. Then again I'm sure he's more than happy to pad his pocketbook while not getting his brains bashed in for awhile longer.
Enough said. Ahmed Johnson was also very popular at one point. Same as Ultimate Warrior, Tatanka, and even Lex Luger. So what?? Shawn Michaels is a shell of the superstar he was five years ago. Same goes for Raven, who is either the second- or third-oldest wrestler on the WWE's roster.
Yeah, physically Raven is 38-years old. But he can still be used well. He's still a passable brawler, and his talking skills are second-to-none. Raven has only been on WWE television for a little over two years, so he is still a somewhat fresh face to the viewing audience. You know why people don't give a shit about Triple H or Undertaker anymore? People have been watching Triple H for 7-years now, and he hasn't evolved his charachter in 5-years. Undertaker has been on television for 12-years. 12-YEARS!!! So in the fans eyes, he's about 100-years-old. Where-as Raven is (in the fans eyes)about 26. People are still willing to accept Raven, as long as the WWE are willing to let Raven be accepted.
I've always liked Raven, personally. I enjoyed his hardcore title run, when he would come to the ring with a shopping cart full of ridiculous foreign objects. He's great on the mic and, while not the most competent in the ring, is a hell of an improvement over some of these fools that are actually on Raw.
Incidentally, Raven co-wrote an issue of Spider-Man's Tangled Web that was really clever. I don't remember the issue number, but it's in the third collection. It's about wrestling- Spider-Man only shows up on the last page. Y'all should check it out.
Originally posted by JakegnosisIncidentally, Raven co-wrote an issue of Spider-Man's Tangled Web that was really clever. I don't remember the issue number, but it's in the third collection. It's about wrestling- Spider-Man only shows up on the last page. Y'all should check it out.
I think it was issue 14, entitled "The Last Shoot." It's basically the "Where are they now?" treatment for the wrestler who lost to a Peter Parker who had just gained his Spider-powers (played by Randy Savage in the movie). It's co-written by Brian Azzarello, who also writes 100 Bullets, a comic which Raven (and I, incidentally) is known to be an avid reader of. Raven (who's writing credit shows up as Scott Levy) is even quoted on the back cover of one of the 100 Bullets Trade Paperbacks. And that's pretty much every iota of info I could squeeze out for this post.
Well first of all, in my opinion on a storlyine/feud/entertainment basis Raven is in the top three in the WWE as far as heels go. Angle being the only one ahead of him and Eddie being right there with him at number 2. All three of them just ooze evil when used correctly. But another reason Raven is such a hot commodity is his ability to feud. If you asked me some of the greatest feuds that i've seen (taking into consideration that i've only watched wrestling since about '88) then some of the first ones that come to mind are Raven/Benoit and Raven/Dreamer. It's amazing how well he can feud with someone due to his mic skills and storylines. Everybody says Benoit is horrible on the mic and that his promos suck, but when he was feuding with Raven he was great. And Dreamer is pretty much the anti-Benoit. Good on the mic, but not good in the ring, and yet Raven got good matches from him too as well as good storyline. Raven also had good feuds with Saturn and DDP in my opinion, and while DDP had some other good moments in WCW, Saturn didn't really do anything significant, but Raven made him interesting for a short time atleast.
I would think that the reason they are bringing him back is for some kind of feud or storyline that they have in mind. And they could even make a new Flock and let Raven hide behind them to keep his wrestling at a minimum if they think he can't go anymore. That was one of the things that made Benoit finally getting a shot at Raven was so good, was that Benoit had to go through the whole Flock first.
I think it was issue 14, entitled "The Last Shoot." It's basically the "Where are they now?" treatment for the wrestler who lost to a Peter Parker who had just gained his Spider-powers (played by Randy Savage in the movie). It's co-written by Brian Azzarello, who also writes 100 Bullets, a comic which Raven (and I, incidentally) is known to be an avid reader of. Raven (who's writing credit shows up as Scott Levy) is even quoted on the back cover of one of the 100 Bullets Trade Paperbacks. And that's pretty much every iota of info I could squeeze out for this post.
That's right. I forgot Azz co-wrote it. I thought it was a retelling of the story, not a "whatever happened to Crusher Hogan," though. Azz is kind of hit or miss. I like 100 Bullets okay, but I thought his Hellblazer run was godawful.
It might just be the almost complete lack of camera time he's had lately, but I've never noticed any great slowdown in Raven recently due to age....granted, his style was never really a quick flashy thing to begin with, but I still haven't noticed much change in him
It's like WWE dangling a shiny gold coin in one hand while giving you an enema with the other, which I'm assuming is quite hard to do, but WWE is pulling it off - SKLOKAZOID
Orton jumped off the top rope and landed perpendicular to Conway (chest to chest). Isn't that just called a "cross body press"? I didn't think it was much of a finisher. Re: Island Boyz Isn't one of them still recovering from an injury?