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The W - Current Events & Politics - What is a patriot? (Page 2)
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StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.36
Rightly calling for?


Hmmm, you dont respect our nations laws, and come here illegally, so lets reward you and let you have a free pass?
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2996 days
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
My definition:

A patriot is someone who is proud of their country and/or government when they're acting laudably.

A patriot is also someone who cares enough about their country and/or government to criticize them when they're not acting laudably, up to and including working for the replacement of those responsible.

"Love it or leave it" jingoism is jingoism, not patriotism.




"There were times when I intensely wanted to walk out of the theater and into the fresh air and look at the sky and buy an apple and sigh for our civilization, but I stuck it out." -- Roger Ebert
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 2950 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.50
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Impeachment is a contsitutional facet of this nation's democracy. Impeachment is not unpatriotic- not backing up Clinton's decision to go into Bosnia (especially once it began) would be unpatriotic.



I was actually referencing the recall in California.

And just because something is Constitutionally allowed makes it patriotic? If that's the case, Hilary Clinton and the Dixie Chicks' comments are patriotic, as they are allowed under the Constitution.

You are still saying that dissent is ok, if you keep it to yourself, which is ridiculous. Why should we present ourselves to the rest of the world as something we are not?



Weekly Visitor - PSSSSHAW!

Jersey Is Dead - Just trying to help out
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 33 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.56
    Originally posted by vsp
    My definition:

    A patriot is someone who is proud of their country and/or government when they're acting laudably.

    A patriot is also someone who cares enough about their country and/or government to criticize them when they're not acting laudably, up to and including working for the replacement of those responsible.

    "Love it or leave it" jingoism is jingoism, not patriotism.



I agree, jingoism is in fact unpatriotic. Notice how we in this thread insert party politics into the discussion. Our politics color our views on this question whether we mean to or not. Try and define these terms without the politics thrown in. That's one of the conumdrums that caused me to post this thread.



Perception is reality
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.55
Even the recall is part of the election process, at least in California. You can't accuse someone of being unpatriotic when they are undergoing a legal democratic process.

And I never said "if you disagree, keep your mouth shut." I think General Clark said it best this morning, when he (on the surface) did not want to speak ill about the President's actions because he was overseas. Of course, he went on to do just that, but his initial intention was proper. It does not matter if they agree with you or not in another nation- you are supposed to support your nation to the rest of the world. That is what patriotism is- and if you think that is a vile concept, maybe patriotism is something you don't happen to agree with.



Still on the Shelf- Every Tuesday
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.52
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Notice how we in this thread insert party politics into the discussion. Our politics color our views on this question whether we mean to or not. Try and define these terms without the politics thrown in. That's one of the conumdrums that caused me to post this thread.


How can you NOT color it, Doc? Certainly, when two groups interpret what the constitution says differently, than their opinions on patriotism will be different.

Let's take the stinkin' Dixie Chicks. I think what they did (or specifically, that initial member) did was very, very unpatriotic. To privately express one's views that are negative towards one's country is one thing and certainly OK. Had I heard that whazzername was negative toward Bush, I would have made my decision about her (Lib) and let it ride. For example, I think much the same thing about, let's say, most actors, with a few exceptions. But for her to use her platform to critizise our president and our government during wartime in another country is patently unpatriotic and in my view, despicable. Like, I have no specific issue with, say, Alec Baldwin. He's more antiwar than the Dixie's, I think, and certainly about as far away from my position as you might imagine.

But, he didn't do a speech during a highly rated show when he had a platform. He didn't speak from a platform he had. Yes, he expressed his opinion, but on platforms where he was expected to speak his mind on the subject.

So I would consider the Chicks very unpatriotic and will NEVER buy their music or allow it to exist in my home. And I consider Alec baldwin an obvious Liberal, who I don't agree with, but who is an entertainer I welcome into my home.

Now, back to the coloring:

Someone who has a primary love of speech at all costs (and that's not what the constitution protects, but a reasonable right to speech - if you doubt that, express a desire to do harm to the President in a public forum and see how free that speech is) might say the Chicks are patrotic and any desire to supress antipatriotic speec is the unpatriotic activity.

as an example, anyway.





We'll be back as soon as order is restored.....
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02
From: Huntington, NY

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.59
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    It does not matter if they agree with you or not in another nation- you are supposed to support your nation to the rest of the world. That is what patriotism is- and if you think that is a vile concept, maybe patriotism is something you don't happen to agree with.


If that IS what patriotism is, then it is something no one should agree with.

The president is not the nation - the congress are not the nation. They may run the nation (notice, I did not use the word "lead"), but they are not the nation. This concept that somehow you should censor yourself, for any reason, because it may make the nation seem "weaker" to "our enemies" is just absurd.

Hell, even Bush acknowledged that when he was visiting England (albeit in a backhanded kind of way).

You are saying is that there is a fundamental problem with free speech - that it is only "patriotic" in certain times and in certain forums.

But either you have freedom of speech, or you don't. To say you are unpatriotic when criticizing the governement - especially in a time of "war", when people should be most critical - is ridiculous.



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.65
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    It does not matter if they agree with you or not in another nation- you are supposed to support your nation to the rest of the world. That is what patriotism is-


That actually sounds closer to a battered housewife. "No matter how bad it is, keep a Brave Face. Can't let the neighbors know..."

I'd put it forward that since the right to disagree with the way things are run is one of the greatest strengths of this country, expressing it outside the borders is no less patriotic than expressing it inside. It may, in some cases, be bad manners or inappropriate but nowhere near unpatriotic.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 33 days
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.56
AWA. You made your argument in terms that minized political leanings by the context in which you said the Dixie Chuicks were wrong. It can be done. I realize that our belief system colors our definitions here but that is different from blind party loyalty.

I strenuously diagree with a lot of politicians on both sides, but I don't think they are unpatriotic. I just disagree with the direction. On many issues the Conservatives in the Congress are proposing items that to me are in direct conflict with our freedoms under the Bill of Rights, however, I think they are misguided not unpatriotic.

Part of the reason I started this was that we are now reduced in political discourse to ad hominem attacks where if you disagree, you aren't a patriot (from both sides). I scratch my head and wonder if we are becoming so intellectually bankrupt and desperate that we no longer are capable of civil discourse leading to good solutions. It colors every aspect of our society.

I am able to say that Barry Goldwater was a great patriot as well as Paul Wellstone. I disagree with the mentality that permeates much of the Administration but I think they are doing what they really think is best. I think they are wrong but I know they think they are doing their patriotic duty.





Perception is reality
JoshMann
Andouille








Since: 17.11.03
From: Tallahassee, FL

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.15
Here's the problem, really:'

It all has to with the modernization of opinioning...namely, if you ("you" in the cosmic sense, natch) consider yourself to be correct on whatever issue, by contrast anyone else who takes the other side is wrong.

Of course the reality is that most of the time no one is completely right or wrong on any given issue. No more so than

[ANALOGY ALERT!!]

....a couple arguing over directions on how to get from New Orleans to New York by car. One may say THIS highway to THAT highway is better, while the other will say that this OTHER way is MUCH better, and perhaps words are exchanged, intelligence is questioned and names that they'll both will regret later are called. But in the end, they do get to New York. And neither of them have any less interest of getting to their destination at heart, they just have different ways of getting there. But it doesn't make either any more or any less committed to the cause than the other.

My point? Really a patriot is anyone on either side who contributes to the betterment of the nation. But see, the problem lies somewhere in line with one person's idea for betterment may not necessarily be another's. But saying you're for war is no more or less patriotic than saying you're against it. Anything about this war that was spoken as dissent was thought of as for the betterment of this country by NOT going through with it...and obviously that was a difference of opinion with the people in charge, but it's just a different way of getting there.



If Martha Stewart's obituary had a typo in it, would it read "Beloved Aunt"?
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 27 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
I think the whole "don't talk shit outside the country" thing is kind of moot in today's day and age.

If this is 1826, I can see it. But nowdays, anyone in any other country can hear what you're saying if they want. If you're on CNN, and everyone around the world can tune in, does it really matter if you're talking from London, or Washington, or Riyadh?

Is everyone who has talked bad about Bush or the war or whatever on this board unpatriotic because people all over the world can read it? If I take a vacation to England, hit an internet cafe, and post "Jr. sucks balls, and the reason for the war is to get Cheney's dick hard" on this board, am I unpatriotic?



I wonder how much money George W. Bush gave Paris Hilton.
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 297 days
Last activity: 290 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.25

    Originally posted by Nag
    Which negates the fact that if I have one beer and drive here in the great grand state of Ohio, I could be spending the rest of my 20's in prison cause it's ILLEGAL.



Come on, you've done much better than that. Why compare drunk driving stupidity to the immigration problem?

    Originally posted by Moegates
    Is everyone who has talked bad about Bush or the war or whatever on this board unpatriotic because people all over the world can read it? If I take a vacation to England, hit an internet cafe, and post "Jr. sucks balls, and the reason for the war is to get Cheney's dick hard" on this board, am I unpatriotic?


No, just ridiculous.

Paul Simon was a patriot. Noam Chomsky is not a patriot.


(edited by Eddie Famous on 15.12.03 2045)


"In the sky. Lord, in the sky..."
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 27 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Come on, you've done much better than that. Why compare drunk driving stupidity to the immigration problem?

I agree, mostly because Drunk Driving is a million times more of a problem than illegal immigration.

My vote for American of the century - Phil Hart (not Teddy Kennedy as someone here said once), senator from Michigan, for authoring the 1965 immigration reform act - an act that saved New York City, if not America.

From what I understand, the concensus really seems to be "increase legal immigration, get tough on illegal immigration, improve the system." If this could all be put together as a package deal (including an amnesty, which is pretty much a necessary part of every immigration bill), I think you'd see a lot of bipartisan, popular support for it.



I wonder how much money George W. Bush gave Paris Hilton.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by Leroy
    "war"... "our enemies"... "weaker"


You put these words in scare quotes because you don't believe in the notions of war, weakness, or our having enemies?



CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
      Originally posted by Leroy
      "war"... "our enemies"... "weaker"


    You put these words in scare quotes because you don't believe in the notions of war, weakness, or our having enemies?
Without going into whether I agree with it or not, I believe most people could glean his context when you don't delete all the other words in what he's saying...also, I'm thinking this reply was unnecessary (unless you're looking to drag Leroy into a flamewar - I hope you aren't).



CRZ
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I thinks it's saying they weren't wrong to conclude that but that there was no direct proof. Grimis, we may never know what happened but we can learn.
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