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The W - Pro Wrestling - What Happens Now?
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The King of Keith
Lap cheong








Since: 4.11.02
From: Winchester, VA

Since last post: 350 days
Last activity: 309 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
After watching last night’s match between Shawn Michaels and the Undertaker for the second time, I realized that we could be watching one of the very best matches in Pro Wrestling. Every little thing about that match was well done and kept the crowd’s attention. Not only was Undertaker’s streak on the line, but Shawn Michaels streak against him was at risk. It was a showdown between the two of the best superstars in the industry, ever. In the end the right man won, and everyone was richer for the experience. Herein lies the problem…

Will we ever see a match of that magnitude again?

The Undertaker and HBK are WWE legends. Next November will mark twenty years for Taker, and Michaels (minus a 5 year hiatus) has been employed by the WWE for even longer. Will we ever see a match with that much history and emotion behind it again? I don’t think we will.

The only thing that comes close to this in the last 25 years was Hulk/Andre at Wrestlemania III. That’s the only match that can compare to the epic from Wrestlemania 25. Hulk/Andre had the history and the build up to the actual match was unrivaled. The match itself, while not good from a workrate standpoint, was memorable and exciting.

After the day when Undertaker and Michaels retire, who will be left to cheer for?

Is there someone that is worthy of passing the torch to on the current roster? Cena, Edge, and Orton are good workers, but not worthy. HHH is getting older and does not need it. Jericho is very good on the mic and a very good worker, but he doesn’t get the passion and the attention of the crowd like Taker or HBK. Jeff Hardy is sloppy and has 1/8 the charisma that Shawn does.

A match like the one from last night was a once in a lifetime event. Every fan in the arena and around the world was in the palm of their hands, being played and pulled in every direction. Last night was special. Sadly, we may never see one quite like it again.


(edited by The King of Keith on 6.4.09 1442)


Am I in Horseville? Because I'm hearing nothing but naysayers!
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CruelAngel777
Landjager








Since: 7.4.02

Since last post: 4 days
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.48
I'm gonna leave it to CM Punk. Yes I'm basing it more on his indy work with ROH as well as other promotions, but he's been a consistent hard worker since his first day in WWE. The thing is he truly lives to wrestle. CM Punk on the other hand has always said he's wanted to be a wrestler since Piper hit Snuka in the head with a coconut, and he has never wanted to be anything else. He's been working his ass of in the business his entire life. He also has some natural charisma, but I believe he works really hard in that ring cause he's always wanted to be there which is siimilar to Shawn Micheals story. Shawn has been a fan of wrestling since he watched AWA as a kid and wanted to do nothing else.

Plus the no drugs thing is playing a more and more intregal role in his path to stardom these days.
Oliver
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Since: 20.6.02
From: Kolob

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.32
Its called inspiration. If hit with it, anyone can outperform and put on an incredible match. I can think of an example: Rock/Hogan at WM X-8...I never thought that Hogan could put on a match that would put me on the edge of my seat, but good lord, the man did it.

Is anyone currently in the WWE roster capable of having that effect? Absolutely. I think that emotion plays into it a lot, and if done right, even Tommy Dreamer could put together a match for the ages.

As for passing the torch...? No idea.

(edited by Oliver on 7.4.09 1534)


Dash Dynamic!
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 20 hours
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.83
If John Morrison was a video game CAW, he'd max out every category except strength. He has the look, the mic skills, the ring skills, and the experience as a singles and tag champ. Only backstage stupidity or in-ring injury can dilute his potential.

I do not agree with the stance that there can be no more special matches between motivated and skilled workers. A match like that should encourage us, remind us what wrestling can be.




"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
dwaters
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Since: 16.10.02
From: Connecticut

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 3 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.47
    Originally posted by The King of Keith
    I realized that we could be watching one of the very best matches in Pro Wrestling.

    Will we ever see a match of that magnitude again?


    The only thing that comes close to this in the last 25 years was Hulk/Andre at Wrestlemania III. That’s the only match that can compare to the epic from Wrestlemania 25.

    A match like the one from last night was a once in a lifetime event.


    (edited by The King of Keith on 6.4.09 1442)


Damn! Either the King of Keith is the king of hyperbole or I REALLY need to watch this match.

(The Undertaker/HBK Hell in a Cell at Badd Blood is my #1 all-time most entertaining/favorite match, so I can imagine this must be pretty good, too)
The King of Keith
Lap cheong








Since: 4.11.02
From: Winchester, VA

Since last post: 350 days
Last activity: 309 days
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
Morrison is a very good choice and one I forgot about. He has all of the tools to become the future of the company. He'd be a great heir to Shawn Michaels legacy. CM Punk is very good, but he has a different charisma than Shawn or Morrison. He reminds me of a Bret Hart.

Hogan and Rock at X-8 was a great match and one of my favorites, but it's nowhere near as good as the match the other night.



Am I in Horseville? Because I'm hearing nothing but naysayers!
CruelAngel777
Landjager








Since: 7.4.02

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 4 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.48
Morrison is an excellent wrestler too. I like that he can work on the ground but randomly throw out a super aerial move. He saves his big spots for when you don't expect it, which I believe will extend his career and always keep the spontaneity in his matches. A year ago all I could say is besides in-ring experience Morrison just needs mic skill, cue The Dirt Sheet! Hell he actually had a Smackdown singles match against Batista last year that I loved, and watching Batista for me is like watching grass grow. I literally go out of my way to avoid Batista's matches.

I also believe in motivated workers as well as skilled. As long as there aren't too many botches and a good story is told, a good match can be had.

(edited by CruelAngel777 on 7.4.09 2149)
Mayhem
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Since: 25.4.03
From: Nashville, TN

Since last post: 31 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.14

I think Morrison is an excellent choice to slowly become one of next "heir appearants" ... I only wish that they would still have Melina with him ... in fact, I see him getting drafting to RAW next week and getting the IC title (again) before the end of '09.

And if you would have told me 2 years ago that the Miz is as good as he is now, I'd have laughed in your face.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 2 days
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.83
    Originally posted by Mayhem
    And if you would have told me 2 years ago that the Miz is as good as he is now, I'd have laughed in your face.



Only Trish's evolution has surprised me more. I hated the idea of who I saw as an MTV reality schmuck moving to the WWE, but he has truly grown. I love his turnbuckle clothesline.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Broncolanche
Sujuk








Since: 2.6.03
From: Littleton, CO

Since last post: 1200 days
Last activity: 452 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.18
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    I hated the idea of who I saw as an MTV reality schmuck moving to the WWE, but he has truly grown.
I still can't believe this is the same meat head I saw on The Real World back in 2001 (so old). In comparison to who they feature on that show (and MTV in general) nowadays, he is very dignified.
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 26 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
The one thing all these epic matches have in common is the workers involved had years and years of being at the top of the card to lend their match that aura of importance. Right now no one can do that because they haven't had time to become that important to the fans, to let the fans have a feeling of having grown and evolved with the characters. It will take time for another group to get there. Jeff Hardy is probably the closest anyone has come to that of the 90's/00's debuts, but his booking has been so erratic and his own choices have kneecapped him more than once so that he's never been able to truly get that moment.



2007 and 2008 W-League Fantasy Football champion!
The King of Keith
Lap cheong








Since: 4.11.02
From: Winchester, VA

Since last post: 350 days
Last activity: 309 days
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
    Originally posted by spf
    The one thing all these epic matches have in common is the workers involved had years and years of being at the top of the card to lend their match that aura of importance. Right now no one can do that because they haven't had time to become that important to the fans, to let the fans have a feeling of having grown and evolved with the characters. It will take time for another group to get there. Jeff Hardy is probably the closest anyone has come to that of the 90's/00's debuts, but his booking has been so erratic and his own choices have kneecapped him more than once so that he's never been able to truly get that moment.



This is what I was trying to say but couldn't because my brain doesn't work that way. Everyone trades wins way too frequently. It's still an event when the Undertaker or HBK loses.



Am I in Horseville? Because I'm hearing nothing but naysayers!
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 10 hours
Last activity: 10 hours
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.77
    Originally posted by The King of Keith
    After the day when Undertaker and Michaels retire, who will be left to cheer for?

    Is there someone that is worthy of passing the torch to on the current roster? Cena, Edge, and Orton are good workers, but not worthy. HHH is getting older and does not need it. Jericho is very good on the mic and a very good worker, but he doesn’t get the passion and the attention of the crowd like Taker or HBK. Jeff Hardy is sloppy and has 1/8 the charisma that Shawn does.

    (edited by The King of Keith on 6.4.09 1442)


Seriously? Are UT and HBK like the only two wrestlers you like or something? Edge is definitely worthy of having the torch passed. He's had a dozen or so MOTY candidates in his career, a few great feuds, 26 title reigns including 4 reigns with each World Title, he can talk on the mic, he can wrestle. I don't see why he's not good enough.

Cena and Orton I don't like as much as Edge but I don't like either any less than Triple H (and I actually like Triple H). Jericho gets plenty of passion from the fans. When he "beat" Triple H for the title and then it was reversed it was one of the biggest pops ever on Monday Night Raw. He doesn't get those pops now but but he's a heel.

Christian is capable too but it's probably too late in the ball game for him to have a great main event career and I'm not sure Vince is going to let it happen either. After that young guys that I think could have Hall of fame careers include Morrison and Punk as mentioned and also MVP. After that there are still plenty of other wrestlers to cheer. Shelton, Bourne, Hardys, Beth, Mickie, Batista, Mysterio, Cody, Dibiase Jr.

You make it sound like the world is going to end when HBK and UT retire. It's not. Just like the world didn't end when Hogan retired, The Rock retired, Stone Cold retired or Ric Flair retired.

MAYBE we'll never see another match with that magnitude, but that's a very big maybe. But to wonder if there will be anybody to cheer for after UT and HBK is just dumb.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
The King of Keith
Lap cheong








Since: 4.11.02
From: Winchester, VA

Since last post: 350 days
Last activity: 309 days
AIM:  
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
    Originally posted by Quezzy
      Originally posted by The King of Keith
      After the day when Undertaker and Michaels retire, who will be left to cheer for?

      Is there someone that is worthy of passing the torch to on the current roster? Cena, Edge, and Orton are good workers, but not worthy. HHH is getting older and does not need it. Jericho is very good on the mic and a very good worker, but he doesn’t get the passion and the attention of the crowd like Taker or HBK. Jeff Hardy is sloppy and has 1/8 the charisma that Shawn does.

      (edited by The King of Keith on 6.4.09 1442)


    Seriously? Are UT and HBK like the only two wrestlers you like or something? Edge is definitely worthy of having the torch passed. He's had a dozen or so MOTY candidates in his career, a few great feuds, 26 title reigns including 4 reigns with each World Title, he can talk on the mic, he can wrestle. I don't see why he's not good enough.

    Cena and Orton I don't like as much as Edge but I don't like either any less than Triple H (and I actually like Triple H). Jericho gets plenty of passion from the fans. When he "beat" Triple H for the title and then it was reversed it was one of the biggest pops ever on Monday Night Raw. He doesn't get those pops now but but he's a heel.

    Christian is capable too but it's probably too late in the ball game for him to have a great main event career and I'm not sure Vince is going to let it happen either. After that young guys that I think could have Hall of fame careers include Morrison and Punk as mentioned and also MVP. After that there are still plenty of other wrestlers to cheer. Shelton, Bourne, Hardys, Beth, Mickie, Batista, Mysterio, Cody, Dibiase Jr.

    You make it sound like the world is going to end when HBK and UT retire. It's not. Just like the world didn't end when Hogan retired, The Rock retired, Stone Cold retired or Ric Flair retired.

    MAYBE we'll never see another match with that magnitude, but that's a very big maybe. But to wonder if there will be anybody to cheer for after UT and HBK is just dumb.


Edge doesn't generate the heat that either of these two do. You mentioned that he was in MOTY contenders, but most of them were tag matches or TLC. I'm actually struggling to recall a match where I thought "wow, that match was made so much better by Edge". Can you name some great Edge matches for me? I'm not trying to be a smartass or use this to prove a point. Maybe I'm forgetting some that he had.

Edge has the title reigns, but 90% of them were won with him being sneaky. He's not booked strong enough. When he gets a few strong title wins where he beats the odds, then he'll get the passion from the fans and me. Beating the champ with a money in the bank contract or jumping into an elimination chamber match doesn't do it for me.

Jericho was once on the right path I think but has fallen off. Was the pop he got from his title win over HHH so loud because he won the title or was it because HHH lost the belt? When he made his return in 2007 his cheers were rapidly diminishing and he turned heel (which HAS been awesome).

...and yes, HBK and Undertaker are my favorite wrestlers. They've been loyal and reliable to the sport and a constant on my tv for the last 20 years. I suppose one day I'll have new favorites, but right now I don't think anyone could step into their boots.







Am I in Horseville? Because I'm hearing nothing but naysayers!
Shadowhendrix
Linguica








Since: 27.6.08

Since last post: 171 days
Last activity: 88 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
As far as good-great Edge matches (IMO of course):

-Vs Lance Storm during the Invasion angle (Summerslam I think).
-The entire Angle feud leading to Angle losing his hair
-The entire Eddie feud culminating with the great No DQ match on Smackdown on free TV.
-Lots of matches I'm forgetting from the "Smackdown six."
-He had a good match vs Lesnar and Heyman from a UK PPV.
-Great cage match with Matt Hardy on PPV during that feud.
-Vs Mick Foley at Wrestlemania 22
-Nearly all of his matches with Cena are at least "good," if not beyond that.
-He had a great PPV match against RVD for the WWE title (shortly before RVD got suspended for pot and lost the title to Edge on Raw).
-He had an OUTSTANDING match vs Orton the week after Cena and HBK's 1 hour match in London. It did not get much praise due to the epic from the week before, but it was for sure one of the best free TV matches i've seen.


Those are off the top of my head. Few of these are legendary, but his in-ring work is amazingly consistent. For my money, Edge is near the top when it comes to Ring Generals in 2009. I really want to see an extended program between him and Punk at some point.
rv581
Goetta








Since: 2.12.02

Since last post: 1519 days
Last activity: 689 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.13
    Originally posted by Quezzy
    Just like the world didn't end when Hogan retired, The Rock retired, Stone Cold retired or Ric Flair retired.



The world didn't end, but it sorta feels that way. Maybe it's a byproduct of my age (35) but I don't have much of an emotional connection to 98% of the WWE wrestlers anymore. Before, part of the joy was watching these interesting, exciting young kids develop distinct new identities -- which then ropes you in as a long-time fans for 'em. Now, all the wrestlers are reduced to being mass-produced corporate products -- and all their styles seem to blend together in a horribly formulaic fashion. Santino Marella is one of the few new faces who is truly distinct and different... which is why I think he's getting so much love from the online community.

I know I sound like one of those old geezers complaining about the cost of bread & the lack of availability of moonpies, but to me, the biggest problem -- especially in the WWE -- is that the same writers are touching too many things. And their style of writing, even though there's clearly an audience for it, sorta sucks all the oxygen out of the room for other voices & other styles, which makes everything feel interchangeable.

Ric Flair was a BRAND. Hulk Hogan was a BRAND. Stone Cold was a BRAND. And these brand identities meant something very specific, which helped you forge an emotional connection with the wrestler, his feuds, and his quest for greatness. By contrast, most of today's wrestlers are very talented -- moreso than their peers from the 70s, 80s, and 90s -- but their brand identity doesn't really mean anything.

And without a strong brand identity, pro wrestling is just a bunch of muscular acrobats pretending to fight.

Now... where can I find me a moonpie?



"Who ate my sandwich???"
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