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19.9.14 1504
The W - Pro Wrestling - What happened to Stone Cold? (Page 3)
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NEO
Salami








Since: 15.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 3806 days
Last activity: 3806 days
#41 Posted on
I didn't think that Bret was really 'fired' or 'screwed' for a long time. That is, until he did that 'talking to the dead' or whatever it was. That proved, right there, that Bret Hart is dumb-ass, and a whiny little bitch, if you will. I believe that he was fired, cuz like most wrestlers before him, he believed his own hype. He is his own #1 fan, the biggest Bret Hart mark is himself.

But anyway, I thought HHH did a great job of carrying the company. But I hate when someone tries to be somebody they're not. He ain't supposed to be a nice guy, humble and gracious. THAT'S NOT THE GAME. The Trish Status angle should of been as far as his "softer" side was gonna go.

I was a big fan of HHH, but this 'face' stuff ain't working for me. Could it be that HHH WANTS to be the top face, even though he sux at it? I mean, the return has worn off, go back to being an asshole. Stone Cold has only a few years left to be on top and he just "don't deserve this".



"NOW YOU GET YOUR WHININ ASS OUTTA HERE!!" Sid Vicious after slapping Bret Hart
Travis
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Since: 7.3.02
From: Baltimore, MD

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#42 Posted on

    Originally posted by NEO
    I didn't think that Bret was really 'fired' or 'screwed' for a long time. That is, until he did that 'talking to the dead' or whatever it was. That proved, right there, that Bret Hart is dumb-ass, and a whiny little bitch, if you will. I believe that he was fired, cuz like most wrestlers before him, he believed his own hype. He is his own #1 fan, the biggest Bret Hart mark is himself.

Randy Savage said the exact same thing a few years back.
Dig it!

Bret's not a bitch, he's just nuts. The biz drove the man insane. Coming from THAT family couldn't have helped either. It's a business full of loons, and it's obviously caught up with him. Too bad.



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Sean
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Since: 26.3.02
From: Mastic, NY

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#43 Posted on

    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    Except that it wasn't just one big HHH push through this period. (and boy how we ever complain about how mid-carders are NEVER pushed now, and at that time we were SO EXCITED to see HHH being pushed).

    Foley, Big Show, Rock, and later Kurt Angle were all heavily pushed during HHH's run toward the top. Of course this was the beginning of the "Big Five" run at the top with Austin/Rock/HHH/Undertaker/Foley main eventing every card.

    The fact of the matter is, it is perfectly legitimate to compare the previous year's business with current business - every single industry on this planet does the same thing to determine their growth or decline from year to year. The WWF does not operate on some mystical plane on which this basic economic principle does not exist.

    Of course I could say that your logic here is "irreparably poor". Why? Because the wrestling industry has proven over the last several decades to be as cyclical business. Up at times, down at others. No, it doesn't have to be a "mystical force", it's fans getting really interested in a product for a short period of time (usually do to some tremendously popular wrestler or angle like Hulkamania in the '80s, the nWo in '97, or Austin/McMahon circa '98-'99), and that popularity falling off when the newness of the angle wears off. There's nothing mystical about that.

    So when the WWF rides an unpressidented wave of popularity when Steve Austin starts sticking up his middle finger and beating the living hell out of his boss, yes, the WWF will have higher than usual buyrates and TV ratings. But, a year or two later when the newness of the angle has fallen off, the fans who tuned in JUST for that angle gradually tune out until a new hook comes along. Foley worked in the short term, but his retirement run was short lived.

    The fact that HHH's run kept a great majority of fans that tuned in for the Austin Boom, even after the reason alot of them tuned in, Austin, went down with his injury, is impressive. I don't think that's poor logic at all. That's just the way it works.



Once again, you are treating wrestling as if it were different than any other business. We have a successful product that is bought by fans, followed by downtime, which is essentially less successful product purchased by a smaller percentage of fans. The myth of wrestling as a cyclical business is perpetrated by those who have no understanding of how actual business is conducted. The success of an angle, essentially how it is received by fans, is not some arbitrary energy that is suddenly injected into the business; it's the result of a carefully thought out angle that the fans want to see. _Any_ decline in business can be attributed to a wrong business move - you might get peaks and valleys, but we have seen a very significant decline from late 1999 to the present, and it is no surprise to me that HHH has been pushed for an unjustifiable length of time.

Also, a quick word: if you are suggesting that Kurt Angle was seriously pushed during this period, I shall point you towards his win/loss record against HHH, and how many of those wins were actually clean and led to something meaningful. I would have had no problem if HHH was pushed as part of a team of top guys that failed collectively - but when HHH was pushed above the clearly superior Kurt Angle, effectively killing off both his heel and face runs, I could see a pattern. After HHH continuously got wins over the Rock, that pattern was solidified - the economics simply don't justify his push.



Giant Baba is a sexual icon.
sergeial
Boerewors








Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 3003 days
Last activity: 2920 days
#44 Posted on
** Travis's new sig:

** RandomWrestling:Now with an "air of superiority"!


You forgot the "deeply unwarranted" part...

(I know I said I wouldn't read Travis's posts anymore, but he went and changed his sig! To extend my already-ridiculous metaphor, it's like my least favorite wrestler suddenly started wrestling in a mask, and it took me several seconds to realize--"oh yeah, that's the guy I always fast-forward through.")

I'm on to you now, though...

sergei



"I tear my quadracep all the time! I tore it this morning, I'm fine!"-- Kurt Angle
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3523 days
Last activity: 3523 days
#45 Posted on
Hmm... I have to say that HHH really didn't carry the company on his back when Austin was out hurt, it was Rock. Granted, HHH was a great heel, but it was the Rock, people came to see. Rock got the crowds going, put on some great matches and was always entertaining. He was the one that carried the WWF through most of Helmsley era, not HHH.

Foley and HHH's fued through the beginning of the era was great, but HHH/Rock was the match everyone wanted to see. If you look at the buyrates and ratings, you see people tuned to watch Rock more than any other wrestler. Of course, the counter argument is that the Full Load buyrate with Rock main eventing against Benoit was low. I counter that by saying, no one bought Benoit as a true threat to Rock, then. Sure, the smarks love the guy, but at the time, the casual fan couldn't stand him. He's mic skills were bad, he was boring to watch and had not meshed into the WWF mainstream, yet. Sure, Benoit is a great wrestler, but to the casual observer, there was no way in hell the WWF was gonig to put the belt on him after Rock just survived the last assualt on the McMahon/Helmsley era. Benoit was not a serious threat, so why buy the PPV if you already know the outcome.

If there was an MVP for the 2000 year, it was Rock. Rock got himself over with mic and wrestling skills. He did the one thing, no one thought was possible, replace Austin as the main face and leap frog him. What happened to Austin was the fact Rock took much of his steam from him and when Austin came back from the injury he was still fighting ring rust and trying to find a niche to the new WWF roster. Remember, you had Angle, Benoit, Jericho and others who did not face Austin and both Austin and the new roster had to get used to one another. Austin has done a great job since his return, but the storylines he has been after Invasion have been ugly. He needs a good opponett, Austin has at his best facing some as good as him and who can give me a storyline to work with. UT/Austin have some much history that its hard to screw up a match between the two. Unfortuantly, minus Angle, Austin has not meshed well with the other newer wrestlers.

A Fan- Stone Cold Rules

Saruman
Salami








Since: 25.1.02
From: Kirksville, MO

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#46 Posted on
The brock thing was for 3-4 years, at most, down the line.
Yeah, no one thought that Vinny would fire Bret in, say, 94, and that's the same kind of time frame I'm talking in, 3 down the road after one last run at the top.
In either case, Austin's on his last legs as is.
And Vince doesn't guarantee anyone a spot, no matter how good they've done for him in the past.




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sergeial
Boerewors








Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 3003 days
Last activity: 2920 days
#47 Posted on

    Originally posted by A Fan
    Hmm... I have to say that HHH really didn't carry the company on his back when Austin was out hurt, it was Rock. Granted, HHH was a great heel, but it was the Rock, people came to see. Rock got the crowds going, put on some great matches and was always entertaining. He was the one that carried the WWF through most of Helmsley era, not HHH.

    Foley and HHH's fued through the beginning of the era was great, but HHH/Rock was the match everyone wanted to see. If you look at the buyrates and ratings, you see people tuned to watch Rock more than any other wrestler. Of course, the counter argument is that the Full Load buyrate with Rock main eventing against Benoit was low. I counter that by saying, no one bought Benoit as a true threat to Rock, then. Sure, the smarks love the guy, but at the time, the casual fan couldn't stand him. He's mic skills were bad, he was boring to watch and had not meshed into the WWF mainstream, yet. Sure, Benoit is a great wrestler, but to the casual observer, there was no way in hell the WWF was gonig to put the belt on him after Rock just survived the last assualt on the McMahon/Helmsley era. Benoit was not a serious threat, so why buy the PPV if you already know the outcome



Another way of saying what you just said is that neither theRock nor HHH were the main draw while Austin was out--it's not the wrestler, it's the feud. TheRock v HHH drew better than either of them could against some other wrestler.





"I tear my quadracep all the time! I tore it this morning, I'm fine!"-- Kurt Angle
Sean
Cotechino








Since: 26.3.02
From: Mastic, NY

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#48 Posted on
Another way of saying what you just said is that neither theRock nor HHH were the main draw while Austin was out--it's not the wrestler, it's the feud. TheRock v HHH drew better than either of them could against some other wrestler.

So, in other words, the reason Hulk Hogan vs. Kamala outdrew the incredibly booked and molten Hulk Hogan vs. Paul Orndorff feud was because the Hulk vs. Kamala feud was a better match? Or are you just making claims so broad that they can't be substantiated?

(edited by Sean on 18.4.02 2055)
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Sean
    Or are you just making claims so broad that they can't be substantiated?
Something tells me they're going to stop arguing their points because you're using LOGIC.



--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
NEO
Salami








Since: 15.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 3806 days
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#50 Posted on
Dude, that gif is SICK! Where did you get that from?



"NOW YOU GET YOUR WHININ ASS OUTTA HERE!!" Sid Vicious after slapping Bret Hart
CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#51 Posted on
I sure wish you'd sent him a private message instead of adding that to the thread, since it's so out of place in the discussion, y'know?



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sergeial
Boerewors








Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 3003 days
Last activity: 2920 days
#52 Posted on
    Originally posted by CRZ
    I sure wish you'd sent him a private message instead of adding that to the thread, since it's so out of place in the discussion, y'know?


I'm going to presume that you mean me...

I really felt that the comment warranted a public put-down, but I certainly understand if you disagree--it is your forum after all. I apologize (to you, not to Travis), I won't do it again, and thanks for not banning me for it. I'll be good.

sergei

Edit: Man, I feel like a doofus! I just reread this and realized that CRZ was talking about NEO asking papercuts about his gif! That makes more sense since it was right before Z's note, and not a page back! Well, the apology for flaming stands, anyway...



(edited by sergeial on 19.4.02 1250)
"I tear my quadracep all the time! I tore it this morning, I'm fine!"-- Kurt Angle
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3523 days
Last activity: 3523 days
#53 Posted on
No, Sergeil, I am saying that Rock carried the Federation on his back through a majority of 2000. HHH was a great foil for Rock, but at the same anyone with at least half decent mic skills and the amount of time, HHH got during this time would have made anyone minus a few guys serious contenders to Rock. Rock made the fans want to tune in, because he has it. It is the ablity to get the fans on their feet for any move, to make them feel involved and to make them care about the person they are watching. Rock did all of that in spades.

The bitch of it is, is its easy to be a heel. Its easy to go out and make fun of the fans, its easy to beat down people through cheating and its easy to do it with a smirk on your face. HHH gets all of this credit for being this unbeatable heel, but the reality is Benoit, Jericho, Foley, Big Show and anyone else could do that too and they have and I'd argue Mick, Benoit and Jericho were better at it than HHH. But, since HHH is seen as this God wrestler on the net for being one of a few heels to win at Wrestlemania and putting on a great match with Rock at Judgement Day, he is considered the better of the two men. I say thats crap.

Its hard to get the crowd behind you, look at Rock's first run as a face. Rock set himself while being a heel to become the most overface in the WWF by doing the small things. He did the little things and when it was time to do the big things such as Iron Man Matches, creating the Rock and Sock Connection and chasing the WWF title, he did it better than anyone. The Rock is the reason, the WWF is where its at today. If he didn't step up when Austin went down, then the WWF would not be the powerhouse it is today.

A Fan- Giving credit, where credit is due.

sergeial
Boerewors








Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 3003 days
Last activity: 2920 days
#54 Posted on

    Originally posted by A Fan
    No, Sergeil, I am saying that Rock carried the Federation on his back through a majority of 2000. HHH was a great foil for Rock, but at the same anyone with at least half decent mic skills and the amount of time, HHH got during this time would have made anyone minus a few guys serious contenders to Rock. Rock made the fans want to tune in, because he has it. (snip)

    A Fan- Giving credit, where credit is due.




OK, I see where you're coming from, and I halfway agree with you. I think we're talking a lot more about our personal taste than the mystical qualities that cause high buyrates, but I'd rather talk about our personal tastes anyway.

I agree that the wrestler that plays theRock deserves a bit more of the credit for the greatness of the HHH/Rocky feud than the wrestler that plays HHH. On the other hand the character of HHH was essential for getting the character of theRock over the way it got over. IMHO, the reason HHH was booked to squash other wrestlers and make them look bad, was to make theRock look good. If HHH can crush most faces easily, when he beats theRock, the fan's can console themselves by saying that theRock was a lot harder for HHH to beat, and when theRock finally gives HHH his comeuppance, it's a triumph. Could some other wrestler have played that part as convincingly? Obviously you think so; I doubt it, but no other heel has been given that kind of a role lately, so it's pure speculation.

Anyway, I agree that theRock was more important to the success of the Rocky/HHH feud than HHH, but I don't think it was all Rocky, because I haven't enjoyed most of his other feuds nearly as much, partly because of meshing better with HHH in the ring, and partly because the HHH/Rocky storyline was better. YMMV...

sergei



"I tear my quadracep all the time! I tore it this morning, I'm fine!"-- Kurt Angle
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#55 Posted on
Yeah, so, anyway back to Austin.

Austin's role in the WWF has diminished greatly since doing those title jobs to Jericho over the past winter (He does put people over, even if he did lose by screwjob). After that, he was offered the Hogan match at WMX8, but he initially turned it down. I'm not sure why, but it's possible that it's due to Hogan not working with him in WCW. Anyway, Rock got the "rub" that he didn't really need and it worked out for everyone involved except Austin, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

In any case, Austin got Hall in the 5th match from the top at WMX8 and had a so-so match that was mainly aimed at working the crowd in the middle of the show. Austin came off as more of a novelty act than a serious contender, then he left for a few weeks after a dispute from management.

Now, he's back and he's the cornerstone of the WWF's former(?) flagship show RAW. He doesn't appear to be the megastar, though obviously the top star on RAW, because of the big roster split and the fact that he's been separated from guys like Jericho, Angle, and the like. Instead, he's put in rematches from 1998 as his only option. And the nWo, but their role has decreased since Hogan left, really.

Personally, I think Jericho should have gone to RAW, because there's an actual money feud with Austin that's still legit. Jericho-Hogan could be an entertaining feud and all, but RAW needs some newer established blood (guys that have been on the undercard a while and are moving up, like Edge/Jericho/Benoit)

The roster split has hurt everyone in the short term, because there's still a lot to prove on the other side of the Brand Extension with matches that won't come together for a while, if at all.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 19.4.02 1254)
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- TheIronGeek, East Coast Raw (Spoiler) (2003)
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