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The W - Current Events & Politics - We're Not Keeping Good Company
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spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#1 Posted on
More than 1,500 people executed worldwide in 2002 (story.news.yahoo.com)

In the article it says the US came in third in worldwide executions behind only China and Iran. I hope we're not going to stand for this sort of an Execution Gap! (channeling George C. Scott in Dr. Strangelove) Seriously, when you look at the list of countries below we stick out like a thumb that just got hammered by HHH's trusty sledge. Aren't all the rest of these (excepting Japan) nations we would generally condemn as being backward and barbaric places? And just a thought, once we install a new government in Iraq will they be keeping the death penalty as a part of their new legal system?

The full list of countries recording executions from the article is China, Iran, USA, Belarus, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, India, Iraq, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, the Palestinian territories, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Taiwan, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, Yemen and Zimbabwe.



"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it." - Robert E. Lee

For anyone who thinks that Booker will be going over HHH at Backlash, feel free to PM me about the HHH Challenge.
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Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 141 days
Last activity: 12 days
#2 Posted on
As strongly as I oppose the death penalty, I think I trust those statistics about as far as I can throw HHH and regard them as completely unreliable. I do believe that the U.S. executed 71 people, but there is absolutely no way that any one of China, Iran, Belarus, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, India, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, the Palestinian territories, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Taiwan, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, Yemen or Zimbabwe executed less than 1,500 people within their own borders. The idea that only 1,526 executions were performed worldwide is laughable (which the article mentions, but as an aside and certainly doesn't use the word laughable)

Also, the notion that the UN can do anything about this (as the article suggests) is utterly preposterous. See the WSJ editorial about the UN thread for evidence of their moral (il)legitimacy, (in)effectiveness and (in)competence.

(edited by Corajudo on 12.4.03 0941)
senor sangre
Bauerwurst








Since: 31.1.02
From: Fred'burg, VA

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#3 Posted on
From the article: While the global total of 1,526 executions was half that of 3,048 recorded in 2001, Amnesty said the figure only included known cases.

"It is impossible to give a complete total because many countries deliberately keep the true numbers of those executed secret," the group said.


I'd wager that most of those listed countries executed 1,526 people each. 71 executions of people who've been in jail for years doesn't compare to amount who are slaughtered in civil wars or killed for religious reasons, or those now suffering in concentration camps like in North Korea. There's probably been over 71 executions by the former Iraqi gov't in the past month.








Keeping up my 0.10 posts per day...
Scott Summets
Sujuk








Since: 27.6.02

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#4 Posted on
I'm surprised Japan is on this list, but the one thing that does save the US some face (and China too sadly) is that you need to look at how many people live in the country. In a political and persuasive writing class I took at Davidison the professor showed us an essay a woman wrote about rape in the US and showed how there are just as many rapes here as in a small section of Kosovo. That looks horrible, but the professor made the point that we have 250 million, whereas that section of Kosovo has 500000 people.



Rorschach: "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#5 Posted on
That's not the prison-related statistic that bothers me the most. It's the idea that... what was it, twenty percent of the population is either in jail now or has been at one time? Yeah, for a "civilized" country we're pretty execution-heavy, but that's way, way too many people doing time.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 20 min.
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
I had no idea Japan still had the death penalty. First Whale hunting and now this. I'm surprised they aren't the cause-de-jour among certain folks.

I've never understood why we don't just get rid of the Death Penalty. I'm not opposed to it on moral grounds or anything, but there is just such a small difference in punishment between putting someone in a hellhole for the rest of their life and killing them humanely (in fact, having to choose one or the other, I'd probably choose the latter) that I don't understand how it's worth the risk of screwing it up even once.

I mean, let's say you had a choice between feeding the guests at your wedding a fancy, full-course meal or pizza and beer - with the catch that if you gave them the fancy full course meal one of them would die. What would you choose?



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, not racist, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, 20% Black, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Tom Daschle, Boston, a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage, and not a Hipster.
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1464 days
Last activity: 372 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    I had no idea Japan still had the death penalty. First Whale hunting and now this. I'm surprised they aren't the cause-de-jour among certain folks.

    I've never understood why we don't just get rid of the Death Penalty. I'm not opposed to it on moral grounds or anything, but there is just such a small difference in punishment between putting someone in a hellhole for the rest of their life and killing them humanely (in fact, having to choose one or the other, I'd probably choose the latter) that I don't understand how it's worth the risk of screwing it up even once.

    I mean, let's say you had a choice between feeding the guests at your wedding a fancy, full-course meal or pizza and beer - with the catch that if you gave them the fancy full course meal one of them would die. What would you choose?



I can't tell you how many times I start reading a thread in the politics forum, and there's some issue that Grimmis or someone else brings up, and I get all charged up and before I get to the end, I'm already starting to plan out my brilliant respons.

And then I fucking get to the inevitable Moe post... It's that moment that you realize that there are people out there who are funnier than you, and their arguments are soooooo much more thought out. So, I'm the not-as-smart sidekick who chimes in with a "Yeah!! And..... yeah!!"





-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport."
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kazhayashi81
Potato korv








Since: 17.6.02
From: Buenos Aires, Argentina

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#8 Posted on
UNITED WE STAND


    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
    That's not the prison-related statistic that bothers me the most. It's the idea that... what was it, twenty percent of the population is either in jail now or has been at one time? Yeah, for a "civilized" country we're pretty execution-heavy, but that's way, way too many people doing time.


Well, maybe it's way, way too many people fucking committing crimes.

I can't say I agree with every crime, can't say if I had my way, some of them wouldn't be changed, BUT.. the laws are the way they are now. If you don't want to face the consequences, don't do the fucking crimes.





It is the soldier not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press

It is the soldier not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech

It is the soldier not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate

It is the soldier not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial

It is the soldier, who saluted the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag
-Anonymous
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 24 days
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#9 Posted on
Fair enough logic Kaz, but then tell me why in this, the most perfect democracy in the world, the shining light of freedom are so many of our citizens compelled to commit crimes? What is it about our country that seems to drive such an enormous amount of our citizenry to commit crimes which we as a populace have in some form or another deemed as worthy of incarceration?



"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it." - Robert E. Lee

For anyone who thinks that Booker will be going over HHH at Backlash, feel free to PM me about the HHH Challenge.
The Vile1
Lap cheong








Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 2047 days
Last activity: 1779 days
#10 Posted on
spf, I think the reasons people are so compelled to commit crimes in america are for the reasons you stated..."the most perfect democracy, the shining light of freedom..." I just think some people abuse their rights and privileges and aren't willing to understand the cause and effects of their actions because they are Americans.

Just IMHO...remember I could be and most likely am wrong



"I am many things Kal-El, but here I am god."
-Darkseid
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3783 days
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AIM:  
#11 Posted on
The more "evolved" a society gets, the more it tends to drift toward decadence. Looks like we're pretty damned evolved. The question is, what would turn that around? Religion, education, free porn for the kiddies? 'cause jail, apparently, isn't doing the trick.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
astrobstrd
Bockwurst








Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

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#12 Posted on
A good place to start would be dropping mininum manditory sentencing for drug offenders. That would probably drop the prison population by quite a bit.



Ph-nglui mgwl'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by spf2119
    Fair enough logic Kaz, but then tell me why in this, the most perfect democracy in the world, the shining light of freedom are so many of our citizens compelled to commit crimes? What is it about our country that seems to drive such an enormous amount of our citizenry to commit crimes which we as a populace have in some form or another deemed as worthy of incarceration?


Why do some men kill and rob and rape, and others don't? Who knows? I'm sure as hell not going to blame some amorphous entity called "society." There are inner city people that have never broken the law in their lives. There are rich white kids (Michael Skakel comes to mind) who murder. People are people, and they do evil things.

Maybe if we were a fundamentalist society, though, and cut the hands off robbers and castrated rapists, we'd see less crime. I dont know.



"May God bless our country and all who defend her."

George W. Bush, 3/19/03
Rocket
Braunschweiger








Since: 12.2.03
From: Canada

Since last post: 4207 days
Last activity: 4160 days
#14 Posted on
What US society needs to do is focus more on keeping kids that haven't committed crimes from doing so. I just saw a news article that showed California firing a whole slew of teachers because the education system is bankrupt. Yet the govenor of Calif. just built a $220 million death-row addition to a prison. Wouldn't that money be better spent keeping people out of jail, rather than in?
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1303 days
Last activity: 1100 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by spf2119
    why in this, the most perfect democracy in the world, the shining light of freedom are so many of our citizens compelled to commit crimes?

Memo to everyone; this is not a democracy. America is a constiutional republic. Thank you.

Anyhoo....


    Paraphrasing spf2119
    why...are so many of our citizens compelled to commit crimes? What is it about our country that seems to drive such an enormous amount of our citizenry to commit crimes which we as a populace have in some form or another deemed as worthy of incarceration?

Human nature makes people do bad shit. It's just the way of life. Some people are raised in a criminal element. Some people do it as a way to survive. And some people are just plain fucking evil.

And if it were up to me, I'd bring back the guillotuine.




Bye bye you son of a bitch...

dMp
Banger








Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#16 Posted on

    Originally posted by spf2119
    Fair enough logic Kaz, but then tell me why in this, the most perfect democracy in the world, the shining light of freedom are so many of our citizens compelled to commit crimes? What is it about our country that seems to drive such an enormous amount of our citizenry to commit crimes which we as a populace have in some form or another deemed as worthy of incarceration?


1 - Your system that penalizes everything instead of trying to change the criminal
2 - your huge gap between poor and rich makes ppl do things they shuoldnt do.
3 - your social system which leaves alot of people on the outside

that are big reasons I believe (as far as I can see as an outsider)
i am not saying there are better ways (the Netherlands has alot of trouble too) but well..




Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1303 days
Last activity: 1100 days
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by dMp
    1 - Your system that penalizes everything instead of trying to change the criminal
    2 - your huge gap between poor and rich makes ppl do things they shuoldnt do.
    3 - your social system which leaves alot of people on the outside


Haven't we proven that big government is not the answer? Isn't this why there is a simmering conservative backlash ready to unleash itself across Europe? Because the leftist governments would rather let criminals run amok than actually, y'know, punish people?




Bye bye you son of a bitch...

MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 20 min.
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Haven't we proven that big government is not the answer?

Isn't it smaller government to spend $100 on a small-time criminal making sure he doesn't end up back in jail, rather than spend $1000 on him when he does? Jails cost a ton of money. They swell the municipal payroll (unionized, no less). It's stupid to disavow cheaper alternatives that work just because politicians don't want voters to think their nuts aren't big.

Come on, this is a fairly intelligent forum. We should be beyond partisan buzz-phrases as catch-all answers to irrelevant problems by now.

Isn't this why there is a simmering conservative backlash ready to unleash itself across Europe?

This one's news to me. Although I've always argued that Europe, with its seemingly genetic hatred of Jews, Gypsies, and Foreigners and its complete lack of social mobility, is far more right-wing thatn the United States in many ways. Europe's head is very liberal, mostly due to firsthand evidence of what ultra-conservatism can unleash. But its heart is a different matter.

Because the leftist governments would rather let criminals run amok than actually, y'know, punish people?

Yes. We also all hate America and want turn your children into drag queens.

If it were up to me, I'd put MORE people in jail. I'd punish all those kids that break the law without even really thinking about it. I'd treat them the exact same as the kids in the neighborhood a few miles over, where the cops are just waiting to catch one of them smoking a joint in their basement.

Hyperbole aside, I think a distinctions needs to be made between violent and non-violent criminals, and between "victimless" crimes and non-victimless crimes. For some crimes (minor drug use, for instance), punishments are far too harsh. For others (domestic violence and drunk driving come to mind), they're far too lenient.


(edited by MoeGates on 14.4.03 1039)


It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, not racist, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, 20% Black, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Tom Daschle, Boston, a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage, and not a Hipster.
godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3940 days
Last activity: 3885 days
#19 Posted on
Haven't we proven that big government is not the answer?

No. (Particularly since it's never been tried. Republican presidents have always had the biggest cases of overspending, and they're always the ones who complain most harshly about "big government".)

Isn't this why there is a simmering conservative backlash ready to unleash itself across Europe?

No. The heart of European conservatism has never been economic, but rather racist. Sad truth, but there you go.

Because the leftist governments would rather let criminals run amok than actually, y'know, punish people?

Given that the "leftist governments" in question all govern countries with far lower crime rates than America's, I wonder what your point is.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1303 days
Last activity: 1100 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by godking
    Given that the "leftist governments" in question all govern countries with far lower crime rates than America's, I wonder what your point is.

Of course, you are using the actual number of crimes instead of crimes per capita. Given the fact that the US has a HUGE number of people compared to every European country, this point is moot.


    Originally posted by MoeGates

    Isn't it smaller government to spend $100 on a small-time criminal making sure he doesn't end up back in jail, rather than spend $1000 on him when he does? Jails cost a ton of money. They swell the municipal payroll (unionized, no less). It's stupid to disavow cheaper alternatives that work just because politicians don't want voters to think their nuts aren't big.


I don't disavow cheaper alterantives for petty crimes(i.e. drug possession]. But once you start getting into bigger crimes, it reminds me of something I heard Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley(a progressive Democrat mind you) say at a Q&A forum:

STUDENT: What kind of rehabilitation programs do you propose for Baltimore's' criminals.

MAYOR: We already have a rheabilitiation program, it's called jail.






Bye bye you son of a bitch...

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