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The W - Current Events & Politics - We haven't found Bin Laden yet, but we DID find sex in video games... (Page 3)
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Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02
From: Huntington, NY

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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.23
    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    Jaguar, the big beef with the AO rating is that not all retailers (read: Wal-Mart) carry AO games. The explicit rating might draw more interest, but what good does that do you if a large portion of your customer base can't get the game?


There's a very interesting article up at Gamespot that suggests this whole controversy might actually benefit Take Two in the long run - and that it is the retailers that will take the largest of the financial hit. Of course, it's their own policies that are hurting them, so I find it hard to feel sorry for them...

The price of Hot Coffee: >$50 million

I'm still puzzled at the reaction. Let's lose millions of dollars over a barely accessible portion to an already fairly offensive game (and I mean that as a fan of the game - not as a criticism). It's ironic that the retailers who have these ludicrous policies are the ones who will be losing the most money in the long run.

(edited by Leroy on 25.7.05 1119)



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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.39
Question: Has anyone here with a (just a PS2) been able to access this thing? I've seen GameShark codes, but not a key-combination code to access it. I'd be curious to see what all the fuss is about.

(Googling gave me a bunch of links to articles on the recent hubbub. I'm not being THAT lazy.)



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EddieBurkett
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Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.13
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    Question: Has anyone here with a (just a PS2) been able to access this thing?


It can only be accessed with a gameshark, as far as I've heard.

Is anyone else happy to hear that Gamestop is going to eat $1 million because it can't sell used copies of the game? I've never traded in games with them, but I've heard that you get almost squat compared to what they wind up selling the game for.

And Shep, while we are still debating how much blame Rockstar deserves for this incident, they at least deserve to be criticized for their initial reaction when the news broke: blame the modders and deny that the content is theirs. If they had just admitted it was in there and never meant to be seen, they might have been able to stem this controversy, instead of letting it fester. (Then again, by letting it fester, we are all still talking about their game...)



"Now that you've built up the courage to get into the gym, let me give you five reasons why you should put in the time to train with consistency: 1. Increased strength 2. Improved self-confidence 3. Injury prevention 4. Self-discipline 5. Sex (Trust me, you'll have a better shot with the ladies if you're in shape.)" -- Making the Game, pp. 14 - 15
CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    Question: Has anyone here with a (just a PS2) been able to access this thing? I've seen GameShark codes, but not a key-combination code to access it. I'd be curious to see what all the fuss is about.

    (Googling gave me a bunch of links to articles on the recent hubbub. I'm not being THAT lazy.)
I think you want to Google on "hotcoffee.wmv" - or just Click Here (from.free.fr) for one that worked for me just now. (that is, if all you want to do is just see the clip)

(edited by CRZ on 25.7.05 1400)


CRZ
Battlezone
Potato korv








Since: 27.2.03
From: Seattle, Washington

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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.40
The modders responsible for the hack have fired back at the ESRB (1up.com):

    Originally posted by gtagarage.com
    Dear Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Yee, and Mr. Thompson

    In recent statements by the ESRB, they have accused the mod community of undermining their ratings by putting sexually explicit material into PC games, namely San Andreas, which was already rated "M". However, if you look into a game by the name of "Singles - Flirt up your Life", it becomes quite clear they are doing a good job of that all by themselves. This "M" rated game features full frontal nudity (and not androgynous "barbies" like The Sims) and characters engaging in interactive sexual scenes. Screenshots of this game can be seen over at IGN: http://media.pc.ign.com/media/667/667197/imgs_1.html

    And for that matter, what of the game "Playboy: The Mansion", which is based on the skin magazine, and is also rated "M"?!

    Seeing as these game contains *far* more graphic depictions of sex than anything found in San Andreas, including the scenes involving nudity which we modded into the game (by default, "Hot Coffee" did contain fully clothed actors...), how exactly have we undermined their rating? If anything, what was left on the disc by Rockstar and modded into the game by us doesn't even come close to what the ESRB itself considers "M" material, let alone rising to their very own standards of "AO". To blame the mod community for this is not only hypocritical, but quite deceptive as well. Not to mention the fact that they've essentially had one title banned for containing "pornography", while they let more explicit games get by them.

    For the record, we feel that "M" is an appropriate rating for these games, as their contents are no worse than R-rated films which have long been considered "okay" for ages 17 and up. However, we do agree with you all that that the ESRB is a big joke. Especially now that they're attacking their own customers for content which they obviously don't seem to have a problem with. Why should we the consumers be persecuted for adding something to a game which the ESRB has already demonstrated as perfectly acceptable for titles in the "M" range? San Andreas originally carried a warning for "strong sexual content", and judging by their previous ratings, we would insist that we released the "Hot Coffee" mod well within the ESRB's (apparently broken) guidelines.

    Best Regards,
    the administration of gtagarage.com


Comparing GTA to "Playboy: The Mansion" or "Singles" is missing the point. It's not just the Hot Coffee mod that made the game AO, it's the Hot Coffee mode *in addition to* all the other violent content in the game that made it AO. All I've heard and read for the past week is some variation of "Violence is okay, but sex? OH TEH NOES!", but you don't go running around the Playboy mansion firing semi-automatic rounds into Playmates. It's not that violence is okay, and sex is not; clearly it's one or the other, but not both.

Secondly, this whole letter screams of tattling on your little brother when you get in trouble for breaking a window. Plus, basically telling Clinton, Thompson and Yee that the ESRB is worthless is doing nothing but giving them ammo for trying to get rid of the ESRB altogether and dragging in government regulation.



(edited by Battlezone on 25.7.05 1905)


"It's the four pillars of the male heterosexual psyche. We like naked women, stockings, lesbians, and Sean Connery best as James Bond because that is what being a [man] is." -Jack Davenport, Coupling
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.01
I would hope that every other self regulated industry (hello Hollywood) would jump in to the defense of the ESRB before allowing Thompson and company to force government regulations and thus setting the precedent that it can be done.

-Jag




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vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by Battlezone
    Comparing GTA to "Playboy: The Mansion" or "Singles" is missing the point. It's not just the Hot Coffee mod that made the game AO, it's the Hot Coffee mode *in addition to* all the other violent content in the game that made it AO. All I've heard and read for the past week is some variation of "Violence is okay, but sex? OH TEH NOES!", but you don't go running around the Playboy mansion firing semi-automatic rounds into Playmates. It's not that violence is okay, and sex is not; clearly it's one or the other, but not both.


I was at my local Target last night, and saw little signs in the PS2 and Xbox sections that said "We are no longer selling GTA:SA, as it has been rerated AO and we do not carry adult content."

Right next to that PS2 vacancy was God of War, "As Advertised," which combines hyperviolent action and buckets of blood with female frontal nudity (that's human females, not just harpies and sphinxes and such) and a sex-themed mini-game that you control. Yep, it's like Hot Coffee with the camera off to the side, but unlocked from the start instead of buried deep in the code! Rated M for Mature and not a word about it so far.

So much for that theory.




Vanilla Ice on stardom: "I had a weekend that lasted a couple of years."
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.26
I have read this thread with interest but since I don't play video games and they are not allowed in our house for our daughter, I really didn't feel the need to reply until now.

First, I in no way wish to ban, censor, or otherwise limit these diversions. Parents should have the brains and responsibility to monitor what their children do.

Second, I totally agree that there is a basic problem in our society when violence is okay but sex isn't. Why do we feel the one will pervert our children but the other is just a harmless outlet?

Finally, maybe it's my age but I just can't relate to mindless violence in any form. In the context of a well told story, film, etc., I get it but with games like this I am lost. I am not saying we move the clock back to Candyland. However, I have witnessed enough death, suffering, crime, and heartbreak that I can't get a kick out of it, even a video game.





Perception is reality
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.40
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Finally, maybe it's my age but I just can't relate to mindless violence in any form. In the context of a well told story, film, etc., I get it but with games like this I am lost.


I'd say the well-told story is THERE. It's not like Pac-man where you just mindlessly roam around...there are missions and a plot, but you can go away from the missions and roam around doing mindless stuff because the game is non-linear, which is one of the main appeals of the game.

The GTA games are the only non-sports or driving games I really play, and I wouldn't if they were just "run around causing death and mayhem" without a solid "game" to play. Rockstar tried to take the plot out of its game with "State of Emergency" and that pretty much sucked.



To get ass, youve got to bring ass." -- Roy Jones Jr.

"Your input has been noted.
I hope you don't take it personally if I disregard it."
-- Guru Zim

"Speak English or face admin retribution." -- CRZ

Leroy
Andouille








Since: 7.2.02
From: Huntington, NY

Since last post: 22 hours
Last activity: 14 min.
#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.23
House backs federal investigation of Rockstar Games

Really? Nothing else is more important?

This is my favorite part, however...



    In a statement, Upton recently said he was "outraged by the brazenness of Rockstar Games in their effort to do an end-run around the ratings system.... Rockstar Games’ deceit has severely undermined the integrity of the ratings system."


To me, this is the same type of Puritan crusade that rose up during the Janet Jackson ordeal. I just don't understand how people get THAT riled up over something so silly...

(edited by Leroy on 26.7.05 0945)



"The Chia Pet: When not bothering to give you a gift at all isn't enough to reveal how much I hate you."

-- General Manager Chris
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.13
And now the House of Reps is calling for an investigation into Rockstar (news.bbc.co.uk).

I still think that despite all their crap, Rockstar didn't do anything wrong. Of course, I doubt that's what the hearings will find. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if just like baseball's steroids scandal spread across other sports, we don't wind up with EA execs getting called about the Sims, and the God of War publisher getting called about that.

Damn. I lose by three minutes. That's what I get for "composing my thoughts"...

(edited by EddieBurkett on 26.7.05 1242)


"Now that you've built up the courage to get into the gym, let me give you five reasons why you should put in the time to train with consistency: 1. Increased strength 2. Improved self-confidence 3. Injury prevention 4. Self-discipline 5. Sex (Trust me, you'll have a better shot with the ladies if you're in shape.)" -- Making the Game, pp. 14 - 15
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
Maybe that's all they're getting mail about. I know *I* haven't written my rep lately...how about you?



CRZ
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2941 days
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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
What I'd like to see happen:
* Rockstar says "Screw you, Hot Coffee's not accessible unless you specifically activate it, our 'main game' as we shipped it deserves its M rating" to Congress, and pays the fine unapologetically.
* Rockstar releases the next GTA in two versions, an M-rated "chain store" version and an AO-rated "director's cut" via mail order, just to dispel the myth that there's no market for adult-themed games.
* The next major GTA game has an easter egg that displays a short video of Fred Upton, Joe Lieberman and Hillary Clinton taking turns performing fellatio on a farm animal. Or Jack Thompson (on either end of the transaction).

What will happen:
* Rockstar eats a fine.
* Rockstar spends too much time worrying about the risqueness of its next GTA title (too tame and they'll be "caving in"; too frisky and they'll be fined again), and the quality of the game suffers.
* The Usual Gang of Idiots on the Left AND Right use this as an overworked talking point for the next year or two, competing to see who can be the most morally indignant about adult-themed games.




Vanilla Ice on stardom: "I had a weekend that lasted a couple of years."
Battlezone
Potato korv








Since: 27.2.03
From: Seattle, Washington

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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.40
    Originally posted by vsp
    Right next to that PS2 vacancy was God of War, "As Advertised," which combines hyperviolent action and buckets of blood with female frontal nudity (that's human females, not just harpies and sphinxes and such) and a sex-themed mini-game that you control. Yep, it's like Hot Coffee with the camera off to the side, but unlocked from the start instead of buried deep in the code! Rated M for Mature and not a word about it so far.

    So much for that theory.



Dammit, I always forget about God of War, probably because I've never played it. I wonder, though, if the producers of GoW included that mini-game in the footage that they submitted to the ESRB for their rating.

I don't think any of this will affect GTA 4 whenever it's released. It'll probably get more scruntiny than any other title released, but R* spends a lot of time tap dancing on that decency line, and I don't expect that to change.

Let's not forget, there *are* stores that are still selling the game. Both Fye.com (shop.fye.com) and Frye's are selling the game for 30 bucks, and while I really have no interest in GTA at the moment, I *do* want to support retailers that didn't cave into the hysteria, and will be supporting them with my video game business (small though it may be) exclusively from now on. Voting with my dollars, and all that.



"It's the four pillars of the male heterosexual psyche. We like naked women, stockings, lesbians, and Sean Connery best as James Bond because that is what being a [man] is." -Jack Davenport, Coupling
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 10 days
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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.13
    Originally posted by Battlezone
    I *do* want to support retailers that didn't cave into the hysteria


Its not that the retailers caved to the hysteria. Most stores had a pre-existing policy against selling AO rated games. The rating got changed, and that policy kicks in. If anyone should be blamed for caving, its the ESRB. (and really, they are "caving" because they have questionable legitimacy and they know that if the government decides that they are useless then we will have government regulations and oversight on this, which is something the industry does not want.)



"Now that you've built up the courage to get into the gym, let me give you five reasons why you should put in the time to train with consistency: 1. Increased strength 2. Improved self-confidence 3. Injury prevention 4. Self-discipline 5. Sex (Trust me, you'll have a better shot with the ladies if you're in shape.)" -- Making the Game, pp. 14 - 15
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2941 days
Last activity: 155 days
#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    Its not that the retailers caved to the hysteria. Most stores had a pre-existing policy against selling AO rated games. The rating got changed, and that policy kicks in.


Also, consider that many retail chains that might otherwise have carried the game don't own the buildings (malls, etc.) that their stores are in, and their leases may explicitly prohibit adults-only content.

Battlezone mentioned fye.com, which is interesting, as I wonder if the brick-and-mortar FYEs that carry games will continue to carry GTA:SA or not. The ones near me do carry softcore porn and tentacle-sex 18+ anime; can't say I've ever bought some from there to see how raunchy they are, but it was still surprising to see in my local mall. I'll check it out next time I'm there.





Vanilla Ice on stardom: "I had a weekend that lasted a couple of years."
Leroy
Andouille








Since: 7.2.02
From: Huntington, NY

Since last post: 22 hours
Last activity: 14 min.
#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.23
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Maybe that's all they're getting mail about. I know *I* haven't written my rep lately...how about you?


Not personally - but organizations I'm involved with... most definitely. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect my Rep. to utilize some common sense, and realize that this is not an issue that is of great importance to Santa Barbarians - especially with all of the issues we are dealing with.

Edit: Well, I checked, and she was one of the 351 who did vote for this, so I guess that shoots my "common sense" argument all to hell.

    Originally posted by VSP

    The ones near me do carry softcore porn and tentacle-sex 18+ anime; can't say I've ever bought some from there to see how raunchy they are, but it was still surprising to see in my local mall. I'll check it out next time I'm there.


I highly recommend checking out the reviews of these games over at SomethingAwful. If that's not enough to get you to stay away from these things, then to each his own, I guess.

(edited by Leroy on 26.7.05 1215)



"The Chia Pet: When not bothering to give you a gift at all isn't enough to reveal how much I hate you."

-- General Manager Chris
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 79 days
Last activity: 2 days
#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
I wonder if they had actually included the mini-game in the first place, and received the M-rating from ESRB, would their have been any controversy? Especially since this content doesn't seem to be vastly different that that in God of War, The Sims, etc. Is it because that there is an appearance that they were hiding something (and Rockstar's lie may have contributed to that idea) that has allowed this whole thing to reach this level?

Funny thing is, I'm beginning to lean toward the idea that this mini-game's omission had nothing to do with the rating, and just had to do with quality (ie as others said, it was just too lame). And it may well be that they would have been better off with this actually in the game, but how could they have seen this coming?

(edited by ges7184 on 26.7.05 1813)


The Bored are already here. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. And no... we won't kill dolphins. But koalas are fair game.
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.14
And now we get our first lawsuit against Rockstar (cnn.com)

So an M rated game is okay for her 14 year old, but an AO rated game isn't? Do we even know if her grandson unlocked the content in question? This reeks of money-grubbingness.



"Now that you've built up the courage to get into the gym, let me give you five reasons why you should put in the time to train with consistency: 1. Increased strength 2. Improved self-confidence 3. Injury prevention 4. Self-discipline 5. Sex (Trust me, you'll have a better shot with the ladies if you're in shape.)" -- Making the Game, pp. 14 - 15
Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 359 days
Last activity: 319 days
#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
The results of the vote mentioned in the article are here:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll419.xml

Screw the 57 Representatives that didn't vote. Take a side!



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