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The W - Pro Wrestling - Vengeance was awesome (Page 2)
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Shem the Penman
Toulouse








Since: 16.1.02
From: The Off-Center of the Universe (aka Philadelphia)

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#21 Posted on
spf: Word. (Life.)

Last year, Brock -- with less than a year's WWE experience under his belt -- got to whip Hogan, the Rock, and Undertaker. Despite his greenness, it got him over, made him a star and a legitimate player in the eyes of the crowds. Nobody's asking for Cena to get that kind of push ... at least, I don't think. But Cena's got talent, a good look, and a hot gimmick. All he's lacking is a win in a big match against an established guy. And the longer they put off giving Cena that win, the less likely it is that people will take him seriously when, or if, he does get it. Striking while the iron is hot, and all that.

(edited by Shem the Penman on 28.7.03 0002)


"I do have a degree in electrical engineering... from almost 20 years ago. Punchcard systems were just becoming obsolete, we had rotary phones in the dorms, and a modem was still a gizmo the size of a shoebox into which you squooshed the phone receiver itself. In short, we lived like animals.

The instant obsolesence is why I became a writer. The rate of punctuation in a sentence doesn't double every 18 friggin' months, and you never have some 22-year-old looming over your shoulder, shaking his head, saying "dude... you're still using adverbs...?"

-- Bob Harris
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    I'm sorry, but this just shows how ridiculous a lot of people on this board are. You get so serious about every little sell and piece of offense. It's real sad you can't just sit back and enjoy a match. The Taker match was good, brutal, and in the end Cena still looked tough. Think of who the Undertaker is - why would it make sense for this new kid to beat him clean? It DOESN'T. We want new stars so badly but be realistic about it - Cena is not in any position to beat legends yet. He's not booked as a monster, his world title days are STILL AHEAD OF HIM (ie, Taker DIDN'T destroy his career as people are making it out to be), and tonight he simply put up a good fight against a legend. A young kid put up a hell of a fight against Taker. That's all I see it as. Oh, so Taker pulled Cena up - whoop dee doo. Should that have been taken out of the match? Sure - but you people act like it's the end of Cena's push and he's doomed and shunted down the card forever. Or cause Taker kicked out of the finisher so now it's invalid. The problem here is that sometimes you guys get so wrapped up in smarky cynicism that you don't realize this shit isn't THAT important - it's not THAT BIG A DEAL if Taker kicks out of Cena's finisher. It's not gonna haunt Cena's career, it's not gonna make everybody look at him as weak - that's just what the internet does when we get all crazy about things like that.

    I kind of liked the story actually - such as Undertaker had the kid beat but then decided to toy with him...until he realized the kid was no joke and fought back like crazy. I think it's just cynicism to look at it as if Cena was buried cause he didn't beat Taker clean. It wasn't his time to beat Taker clean - it was time for a good fight. Take a look at Taker after that match - the man was beat up big time. Cena's days are ahead of him. There was no reason to have him kill the legend now.



I agree with parts of this. Your perspective on the storyline is a little rosy, but that's okay.

The argument would have more merit, however, if it wasn't trotted out after every single Taker match. The proof will be in the aftermath. Which will be more of the same for Undertaker and Velocity matches for Cena.

Taker kicking out of Cena's finisher was rough. But a pull up covers? That's reserved for an out and out squash. Sid Vicious on Superstars of Wrestling in 1992. Not a pay-per-view match. And while wrestling is a work, wins and losses stil mean something to marks. Cena would have gone up in their estimation, even with a dirty win.




-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me


FurryHippie
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Since: 29.10.02
From: New York

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#23 Posted on
    Originally posted by Mike Sweetser
    Taker beating Cena does nothing for either of them and hurts Cena, who has now been shown twice (the Lesnar match and this match) to be all bluff and no stuff.


I want to know what people mean when they say this "did nothing" for Taker. Everybody seems to want him to just lose to young guys - how would that "do" anything for him? This is where I disagree with a HUGE majority of the board - I believe in building new stars, but I mean it's not like Taker is leaving NOW. I don't understand why a big name like Taker has to just job the rest of his career. Booking-wise, why does it make sense? If Taker is booked as broken down and not able to beat the youngsters anymore, then why would it give anybody a rub to beat him? I say it's only effective if you job them very minimally at the very end of the career.

Brock's beating of Taker made sense, because he was a monster that was above and beyond everybody. Cena is no monster, he's working his way up. I see no reason why he should beat Taker or what could have been done differently to "do something" for Taker's career.

And as it relates to the Brock/Cena match - why does that hurt Cena? Brock was crazy monster champ - Cena was the heel - Monster wins. Why does that have to be such a disaterous thing? It doesn't linger like a black mark on his career - these are just losses to big names in a young career. I still see Cena as future champ, which is the point we should all see. He shouldn't be looked at as a champ NOW, which is why he lost to Brock and Taker.

And for everybody who's flipping about the "amount" of offense he gets in or how much his opponent sells (which is played up WAYYY too much on this board), I must be watching different matches. Taker walked away busted up, and I distinctively recall Brock being damn spent after their match at Backlash. Cena just lost, simple as that.

(edited by FurryHippie on 27.7.03 2123)
darkdragoon
Bockwurst








Since: 26.8.02

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#24 Posted on

    Originally posted by Shem the Penman
    spf: Word. (Life.)

    Last year, Brock -- with less than a year's WWE experience under his belt -- got to whip Hogan, the Rock, and Undertaker. Despite his greenness, it got him over, made him a star and a legitimate player in the eyes of the crowds. Nobody's asking for Cena to get that kind of push ... at least, I don't think. But Cena's got talent, a good look, and a hot gimmick. All he's lacking is a win in a big match against an established guy. And the longer they put off giving Cena that win, the less likely it is that people will take him seriously when, or if, he does get it. Striking while the iron is hot, and all that.

    (edited by Shem the Penman on 28.7.03 0002)



I believe it was JR who said a year ago "If people think Brock Lesnar is rising up quickly, wait until they see what we do with John Cena." I'm sure they're going to turn it into Taker valiantly fighting despite injury, but he was clearly dominating Cena.
Notorious F.A.B.
Pepperoni








Since: 4.2.02
From: Dudleyville's Gay Ghetto

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#25 Posted on


    I believe it was JR who said a year ago "If people think Brock Lesnar is rising up quickly, wait until they see what we do with John Cena."


And Shane McMahon said the ECW / WCW show would cater to the smart fans. Plans change.

And on to stuff other people said:

Test losing to HHH in one match didn't ruin his career. His career isn't even ruined. The reason he's in the position he's in now is because he's Test! From Motley Crue security to Unamerican.

And why does this general discussion come up every time the Undertaker has a match? Because smarks generally don't like the Undertaker. Plain and simple. Someone's always going to jump up and say Taker's holding people down every time he wins a match. They'll say it after Summerslam, too.



It's just you against the group mind.
tshman122
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Since: 20.6.03

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#26 Posted on
Comcast sucks balls. PPV didnt work. NWA didnt work the other day as well. Sounds like a really good show. Comcast sucks balls.
Swordsman Yen
Frankfurter








Since: 16.2.02
From: Shaolin

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Well you know something, Mean Gene...
If UT had to win this match, what would've been wrong with the formula of "Cena did everything right and comes oh so close to beating Taker, but he makes a stupid rookie mistake that UT capitalizes on to rally and win" instead of "Cena couldn't beat UT if he had blasted him with a cruise missile, UT wins"? If Taker goes over, fine. He has legendary status and should get his fair share of wins. But there are better ways to go about it than to make a future main-eventer look like a jobber from WWF Challenge.



DIAMONDS: SHE'LL PRETTY MUCH HAVE TO
hosebag
Cotto








Since: 16.6.03

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#28 Posted on
To add to the speculation, here's an idea. They could go with Cena losing, but vowing to beat the Undertaker in a rematch somewhere down the line. Cena could then go out and "improve" his wrestling skill. That way when he does finally beat Undertaker he can say the better man won and it makes him look like he is becoming a better wrestler. Plus the crowd could get behind him as the underdog taking out the veteran.
tricknee
Tocino








Since: 14.1.02
From: Oceanside, CA

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#29 Posted on
Everyone is discussing Cena's loss to Undertaker and what effect it has on his career. For those that are advocates of the 'paying your dues' philosophy, I have to ask... How did Undertaker get to be where he is?
How did he *become* this legend? Yes, he had a great character, but the fact is that he has had the benefit of a sustained decade long push. He didn't pay any dues, he emerged out of a cloud of smoke and immediately beat everyone and anyone, and has continued to do so.
Hogan didn't pay dues, he exploded onto the scene. As did the Ultimate Warrior. And Brock Lesnar. Even the Rock, though it took a change in approach. Austin got himself over initially, but became a pop culture icon by being allowed to stun the entire roster and even beat up the owner.
These guys are made into legends by winning matches. Chris Jericho's career has been permanently damaged by 'pay your dues' booking, and not even the Unified Title could take him to that next level.
Who is going to be the next Undertaker? You can't just inherit the spot, you need to inherit the push.
CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
Them: Man he pulled up Cena, DAMN HIM TO HELL!
Devil's Advocate: I guess you'd rather see Cena jobbing to a chokeslam?

Them: Taker killed Cena's finisher, DAMN HIM TO HELL!
Devil's Advocate: So the match would have been better if Cena hadn't gotten to impress us by giving Taker the FU? (Oh, wow, FU - Fuck Undertaker!)

Them: Man Taker just made Cena his bitch the whole match - that no-selling DAMN HIM TO HELL!
Devil's Advocate: Because Undertaker must do that "internal bleeding" shtick in ALL his matches - hell, ALL the superstars do that, right? It's nothing special.

Them: Taker won! DAMN HIM TO HELL!
Devil's Advocate: Man, you know SOMETIMES after all the buildup...the heel LOSES and the face WINS. I know, that's a brand new concept for some of you...isn't it? Besides, the story of the match had Cena in control at the very end...BUT he couldn't contain himself and had to hold up and stop for just a moment, and that display of pride was ultimately what cost him the match. After getting over the "Cena thinks he's a veteran but he's only been here a year" storyline (thanks, commentary team!), Cena makes a rookie mistake and pays the price. Thumbs up, Roger.

Them: What a loser - his bike stalled out!
Devil's Advocate: Ha ha, that WAS pretty funny actually

Them: RETIRE, TAKER
Devil's Advocate: AWESOME UNDERTAKER WHO IS AWESOME



©CRZ™
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

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#31 Posted on

    Originally posted by tricknee
    Everyone is discussing Cena's loss to Undertaker and what effect it has on his career. For those that are advocates of the 'paying your dues' philosophy, I have to ask... How did Undertaker get to be where he is?
    How did he *become* this legend? Yes, he had a great character, but the fact is that he has had the benefit of a sustained decade long push. He didn't pay any dues, he emerged out of a cloud of smoke and immediately beat everyone and anyone, and has continued to do so.
    Hogan didn't pay dues, he exploded onto the scene. As did the Ultimate Warrior. And Brock Lesnar. Even the Rock, though it took a change in approach. Austin got himself over initially, but became a pop culture icon by being allowed to stun the entire roster and even beat up the owner.
    These guys are made into legends by winning matches. Chris Jericho's career has been permanently damaged by 'pay your dues' booking, and not even the Unified Title could take him to that next level.
    Who is going to be the next Undertaker? You can't just inherit the spot, you need to inherit the push.



It looks like you're sticking only to the WWE (or WWF at the time) when talking about the history of these's guys careers. Wrestling changed forever a few years ago when the WWE decided to get younger guys around 20 and (basically) train them on live tv like La Resistance. A lot of the guys you've mentioned spent YEARS wrestling in indys, making $50 a month for food. THAT'S what people talk about when they say 'pay their dues'. A lot of these newer guys have never really had to do it, so they have to go through what would normally be a 5 year process of learning the business in a 6 month period, all the while doing it on live tv where every screw up is seen by millions. Comparing a rookie nowadays having to pay his dues to a guy like Flair and what he had to do is like comparing apples and oranges. Actually, it's more like apples and birds.

Still, the guys that have to go through the 'paying their dues' while under a guartanteed WWE contract have it pretty damned easy compared to guys like The Undertaker and a lot of the other older guys that really did starve to learn the trade.

ps. Awesome Undertaker is indeed, Awesome.


Tribal Prophet



Wrestling exists in the eternal present. What is, has always been, and when it no longer is, it never was. It has no past and no future, and sometimes even today is in question. - Madame Manga

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Mike Sweetser
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, Washington

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#32 Posted on
I agree with CRZ. Undertaker IS awesome.

However, the booking of the match wasn't.

As far as the "amount of offense", let's put it this way - Taker throttled Cena for most of the match, and even when Cena got his shots in, Taker ALWAYS battled back immediately and got his own in, basically negating whatever Cena tried.

Regarding it "doing nothing for Taker", as I stated and was called on, what good did beating Cena do Taker? Did it get him more over? Will people think "Wow, Undertaker beat John Cena!" and buy tickets to see him (which they should anyway, because again, Undertaker is awesome). No. That's what I mean. This didn't improve Taker's rep at all, it didn't build him up more. He's not going to get momentum going into another PPV with this win or anything. Cena would have, and that's why I'm annoyed with the finish.

Since I'm at it:

Them: Man he pulled up Cena, DAMN HIM TO HELL!
Devil's Advocate: I guess you'd rather see Cena jobbing to a chokeslam?


I would've rather seen Cena kick out of the chokeslam outright, considering it's not even Undertaker's primary finisher. Hell, it's not even #2 (Tombstone) or #3 (the TCB)!

Them: Taker killed Cena's finisher, DAMN HIM TO HELL!
Devil's Advocate: So the match would have been better if Cena hadn't gotten to impress us by giving Taker the FU? (Oh, wow, FU - Fuck Undertaker!)


No, the match would've been better had an injured Taker not busted Cena's finishing move, with an immediate cover. If Cena had taken too long in covering, or had been too hurt to do a good cover, maybe, but Taker basically made it look like "Okay, I'm hurt, but your finisher still ain't nearly good enough to beat me."

Them: Man Taker just made Cena his bitch the whole match - that no-selling DAMN HIM TO HELL!
Devil's Advocate: Because Undertaker must do that "internal bleeding" shtick in ALL his matches - hell, ALL the superstars do that, right? It's nothing special.


The "internal bleeding" is the only thing that even made it look like Cena had a snowball's chance in hell of beating Taker tonight. Even with the "internal bleeding", Taker basically shrugged off whatever Cena threw at him.

Them: Taker won! DAMN HIM TO HELL!
Devil's Advocate: Man, you know SOMETIMES after all the buildup...the heel LOSES and the face WINS. I know, that's a brand new concept for some of you...isn't it?


I really have no problem with Taker winning - again, I love Taker and will defend him to the end, but I don't like the way the match itself went and don't really see a point in him winning it. It's not always the result - how you get there is important too.

Besides, the story of the match had Cena in control at the very end...

And therein lies the rub - that's the ONLY time he had control at ALL!

BUT he couldn't contain himself and had to hold up and stop for just a moment, and that display of pride was ultimately what cost him the match. After getting over the "Cena thinks he's a veteran but he's only been here a year" storyline (thanks, commentary team!), Cena makes a rookie mistake and pays the price. Thumbs up, Roger.

When did Cena pause like this? I was watching pretty closely, and I totally missed it, unless you count him being frustrated because Taker kicked out of his finisher.

So I don't look totally negative, I thought the match, overall, was still WAY better than Cena's title match against Brock, which surprised me. At least ONE guy came out of this match looking good.

Again, it kinda feels odd that I'm a big Taker fan and yet still bitching about this match, but it just left a bad taste in my mouth overall. I still say whoever booked it needs to be thwapped upside the head.

Mike



CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by Mike Sweetser
    When did Cena pause like this? I was watching pretty closely, and I totally missed it, unless you count him being frustrated because Taker kicked out of his finisher.
He stopped in the middle of his Not a Ten Punch Count Along to throw a hand signal to the crowd. The commentators made a rather big deal out of this, and it also got the replay. You really missed all that? Wow, I wonder what else you missed. ;-)


    So I don't look totally negative, I thought the match, overall, was still WAY better than Cena's title match against Brock, which surprised me.
This shouldn't really surprise you - Taker can carry and Lesnar can't. That really reveals Taker's experience...and Lesnar's relative INexperience.

    Again, it kinda feels odd that I'm a big Taker fan and yet still bitching about this match, but it just left a bad taste in my mouth overall. I still say whoever booked it needs to be thwapped upside the head.
I go back to what I devil's advocated earlier: sometimes you book the match so the fans can cheer for the face. Cena still got some spots in the match to make an impression on people (and he impressed me at least) so I just can't put on the big frown at the end of the match.

MY only beef is this seemed like it went FOREVER, but then, I can't exactly imagine Taker saying "I'm feeling sixteen minutes," either, so even THAT probably isn't something we could get on his case for.

I think a prevalent problem amongst some (SOME) is that their only REAL criterion for judging the goodness or badness of a match is that very last thing that happened right before the closing bell...and to people who formulate their opinions this way, anything they add to their reasoning later is simply a cherrypicking of anything they can find that'll bolster their distilled-solely-from-the-finish thoughts.

(Not that I've ever spent a lot of time analysing WHY some people say what they say or anything. ;-) )

(edited by CRZ on 28.7.03 0200)



©CRZ™
Reverend J Shaft
Liverwurst








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

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#34 Posted on
Hey, I hated Cena losing to the Overtaker as much as the next guy. In fact, I started sputtering epithets as soon as Taker pulled Cena up. But I knew all the Taker sympathizers would be telling us Cena backers to wait and see what happens next. I'm fine with that. But if I don't see Taker for another month and he just decides to show up and squelch some other up-and-comer, then that is BULLSH*T.

If you have Taker fans and Cena fans, then obviously you would book a match that would want you to see more of one or both persons. As a Cena fan, watching him lose makes me think we will just see him mired in the midcard (right or wrong, that's what I believe) as it seems many other Cena fans think.

If you're a Taker fan, watching him kick ass on Cena probably wants you to see what he'll do next, right? Of course, if you don't see him wrestling on TV this week (what a shock that would be), how would that appease Taker fans?

So I'm confused how this helps either person unless I see Taker get involved in a major storyline this week...

(edited by Reverend J Shaft on 28.7.03 0840)
Texas Kelly
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Since: 3.1.02
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#35 Posted on
Man, that show was going exactly as I thought it would (including UT burying yet another opponent) until Vince had to put himself over Zach and ruin the entire angle that he's spent months building up - unless, of course, we're getting Vince & Sable v. Steph & Zach at Summerslam (which we probably are, since Vengeance will do a better-than-expected buyrate and Vince will give the props to his angles rather than where they belong).

Can't argue with the decision to give Eddie the U.S. title. What I can argue with is the decision to turn Rhino heel on Benoit - but then again, I also thought it was a bad idea to give Kurt Angle the title again now. (Brock needs to turn psycho-heel ASAP and win that title back at Summerslam - if Vince truly thinks Angle is something special, Angle will get the BRTG - the Babyface Run To Glory - for WM XX.)

I don't understand why so many people were shocked that Jamie Noble went over Billy Gunn. Given Vince's ridiculous man-love for Billy and his love for over-the-top sexual angles (I mean, c'mon, we just saw Sable topless last week for crying out loud), I think the sex wins handily. This Torrie angle was just too good for him to pass up.

All in all, this was quite the entertaining show and a far, far cry from the disaster most of us labeled it as three weeks ago when the Vince/Zach and Steph/Sable matches were booked...



He's the King of the World... & You Just Live in It, Junior!

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Since: 3.1.02
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
I left as Cena-Taker was starting, so I can't comment on the remainder of the PPV. (From what I've read so far, that may have been a good thing.)

But Eddy's shrug was priceless. Eddy's wake-up-ref-and-play-dead act had the crowd roaring at the sports bar. The Eddy-Benoit match ITSELF ruled the earth, making workrate junkies like me happy before the comedy kicked in. And Brock F5'ing the shark was three kinds of awesome.

Then again, I amuse easily.





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whatever
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Since: 12.2.02
From: Cleveland, Ohio

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#37 Posted on
What I saw via sCramBleVisiOn looked like a very fun PPV. Due to time constraints, I did not get to "listen" to the last few matches. But I did have a very good feeling of closure when I turned off the TV immediately after the Cena-UT match. Unfortunately, I was disgusted at the same time due to the outcome of the match. I enjoyed the match itself, mostly beacuse I thought due to the sensational buildup they were giving Cena via his promos, that he had a better shot than their first matchup. Also, when UT made the classic *veteran* mistake (usually) of pulling up their opponent and not taking the three-count, I thought that would certainly come back to bite him. But no, even the screwjob antics in-between were not enough to vanquish UT. Do you think next time *multiple* FU's would do the trick? Don't even go for the cover after the first one or two, just keep pounding away with them because it's your only hope? What will it take to beat UT?

In short, good match, but seeing UT get defeated someday will be almost as sweet as seeing HHH finally lose the title to someone other than the has-been patrol. Both will absolutely make someone.



I drove the Hummer. Sorry 'bout that.
Doc_whiskey
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Since: 6.8.02
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#38 Posted on
Benoit v Eddie - This was a great match. Really one of the reasons that convinced me to buy this PPV. This was great, my fav Eddie was awesome in this, and I was very happy to see him pick up the win.

Noble vs Gunn - I thought this was better than people have said, and Noble's reaction afterwards was awesome!

Barroom Brawl - Too much going on, Brother Love going psycho and throwing people through mirrors was kind of funny.

Kidman/Mysterio vs TWGTT - This match was awesome! A ton of action as both Kidman and especially Mysterio seemed to be full of energy tonight. Benjamin and Haas seemed really great throughout this as they have greatly improved since I last saw them (wrestlemania, I dont get Smackdown here)

Steph vs Sable - well they kept it kind of short at least

Cena vs Undertaker - I thought this was a good match. I was somewhat disappointed with the ending, but I understand.

Vince vs Zach - My first Zach match, and I gotta be honest, I spent the first few minutes laughing. Seeing Zach just hop around the ring and fly all over the place was unbelievable. Vince needs to practice his blade jobs.

Brock v show v Angle - This was another great match. I cant believe nobody mentioned Brock's running powerbomb on show, that was one of the most unbelievable things I have seen. Great match!

Overall I am very happy I decided to put money down on this.



Brazen Snatch
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#39 Posted on
I'll say upfront that perhaps I'm being cranky about this.

Watching Eddy act unconcious and then pop his head up to check the ref would have been a lot funnier had Chris Jericho not done the same thing about six years ago in WCW. This was back when he would go for the countout rather than lose his title belt. Incredibly funny.

But, hey, Eddy wouldn't be Latino Cheat if he wasn't stealing someone's jokes, as well as titles.




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Since: 2.1.02
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#40 Posted on


    This shouldn't really surprise you - Taker can carry and Lesnar can't

I dunno, Brock's been carrying Big Show to some enjoyable matches lately.

This also marks the *2nd* match where Taker gave Cena next to nothing. Taker had a chance to build up Cena going into Cena's title match w/ Lesnar, and it took a ref bump, chair shot, chain shot, and an FBI run-in in order for Cena (who had also been pretty much squashed in the beginning of the match) to crawl over to pin Taker.



    I thought Vince did the booking, not The Undertaker (or anyone else that "we just don't like"). For all you know The Undertaker's been begging Vince to let him give Cena a rub

Taker has enough pull to have a ME PPV match's outcome changed (Brock/Taker round 1). Vince is supposedly a big mark for Taker, so I'm sure if Taker told Vince he wants to "make this kid a star" and lay down for Cena, it'd get booked. Marky-Mark likes to play the part of a locker-room leader, so maybe he should step in and say "Y'know, maybe having me squash John Cena every time isn't such a good idea right now."



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Uh....I was referring to the episode of South Park where they wheel out an aged Rod Stewart, and all he can say or sing is "I pooped m'pants". Later, Rudy
- Rudy, RVD's 7-11 Commercial (2002)
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