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22.10.14 2059
The W - Current Events & Politics - UMass Offers 'Whiteness Studies'
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Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1269 days
Last activity: 1066 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Because the Academic left can't leave well enough alone: UMass offers Whiteness Studies classes because "white Americans are so accustomed to being part of a privileged majority they do not see themselves as part of a race."

Here is one telling quote:

The exercise, which recently involved Cairns and her classmates in a course at the University of Massachusetts, had two simple rules: When the moderator read a statement that applied to you, you stepped forward; if it didn't, you stepped back. After the moderator asked if you were certain you could get a bank loan whenever you wanted, Cairns thought, "Oh my God, here we go again," and took yet another step forward.

"You looked behind you and became really uncomfortable," said Cairns, a 24-year-old junior who stood at the front of the classroom with other white students. Asian and black students she admired were near the back. "We all started together," she said, "and now were so separated."


Anybody else see no need to try and make white folks self-hating liberals on the taxpayer dime? And why can we as Americans and liberals as an ideology get past racial differences?



"I'm going to fill a dark awful basement with radioactive cockroaches. Yep. Big nasty ones like skateboards on legs, that go click-click-click when they walk. And maybe poisonous. I'm going to starve them for a week.

Then I'm going to catch all the coercive priss-spigots in the world, the ones that want to ban second-hand smoke and dwarf-tossing and beer. I'll smear the rascals with bacon fat, so the roaches won't know what they're eating, as otherwise they might not.

Then I'm going to toss all those greased busybodies into the basement. And whoop. And dance. Ha."
- Fred Reed
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Mr. Heat Miser
Blutwurst








Since: 27.1.02

Since last post: 2544 days
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#2 Posted on
This is so ridiculous. Our simple rule of thumb in college was that anything class that ended in the word 'studies' was not a legitimate academic field.

I only see two possibilites for 'getting past' racial differences:

1) Everyone spontaneously realized that race is a societal construct, a fiction, not a real objective thing in any biological sense, and that all individuals need to be treated as individuals and not as proxies for whatever group you believe them to be a member of. My prediction: this will happen roughly never.

2) Extensive enough interbreeding between different ethnic groups that it becomes impossible to identify 'race', so we find new and better things to mistrust others over. My prediction: this could happen within a hundred years.

Neither of these routes are at all helped by the proliferation of "insert race here" studies programs.

Although, just to keep me from agreeing with you completely, Grimis, I'm not sure what 'liberal' or 'self-hating' has to do with it.

Edit: Before people get annoyed with me dissing all programs that end in "Studies", I should state that I have a degree in one of them: "Environmental Studies" - at the school where I took it, it was kind of geography, and kind of environmental science, and kind of urban and regional planning, and not really any of them. I got a real degree later.

(edited by Mr. Heat Miser on 20.6.03 1026)


-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 10 days
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#3 Posted on
Because we still live in a country where for most people those steps forwards and backwards are accurate assessments. Because we have a nation where large chunks of the population feel as if they have been institutionally excised from the American Dream. Because there are hundreds of Benton Harbors waiting to happen at the drop of just that one spark into the powder keg. Because to a lot of people "And why can we as Americans and liberals as an ideology get past racial differences" is another way of saying "why do minorities complain so damn much when they have all these special priviledges already?" only in a more palatable way. Because most cab drivers still won't stop for minorities, most white people still speed up their walk when a young black man is near them, and because a whole lot of people have made great political/personal gain by saying "we've given them everything over these last 40 years, now when do you get yours back?"

But yeah, let's simplify the problem into being "we're making white people hate themselves by pointing out that they still have it easier than any other race in this society." Because god knows that any recognition of that fact is just leftist gobbeldygook. I just wish I lived in your world, where there is no more racism (except against white folks who are made to feel guilty for their race), because it seems like a pleasant enough place. I'm too busy living here in the Chicago area where my black friends get followed around convenience stores and pulled over by cops in the suburbs for looking "suspicious".

Oh, and for another take on why people think there's still issues with race The Screwing of Cynthia McKinney (gregpalast.com)



(edited by spf2119 on 20.6.03 0935)


and maybe I should open up my sensitive side/but really, the sensitive side sucks./I've been there./You can only imagine the kinds of sweaters they make you wear.
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 198 days
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#4 Posted on
A couple of things:

1) Academia is just as phony as Hollywood and Capitol Hill. Fields like 'Whiteness Studies' appear, not because there's a need or demand for them, but because so academic wasn't going to get tenure because the usual departments were already filled.

2) As long as the class isn't required, and as long as they still allow you to drop it in the first week or so, I don't have any problems at all with the class. If you don't like the class, don't sign up for it. It's that simple. If enough people don't like the class, and nobody takes it, they'll stop offering it.

-Jag



Roxanne from The Real Cancun on being famous:
"I'd rather be known for [dancing topless with my twin sister] instead of being smart or something. There's a million people who are smart. There's only 16 of us who were in Cancun together."
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1269 days
Last activity: 1066 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by spf2119
    But yeah, let's simplify the problem into being "we're making white people hate themselves by pointing out that they still have it easier than any other race in this society." Because god knows that any recognition of that fact is just leftist gobbeldygook.

It is gobbeldygook. Have you been paying attention to the Rutter case?


    Originally posted by spf2119
    I just wish I lived in your world, where there is no more racism (except against white folks who are made to feel guilty for their race), because it seems like a pleasant enough place.

I never said there was no racism. But the argument could be made that the reason racism is still prevelant is because the racial integrationism that was promoted by civil rights leaders of the late 50's and early 60's has been replaced by racial seperatism to keep the races seperate, but to heap special privileges on chosen classes. This is why many colleges can have an "all-black/all-hispanic/all-whatever" graduation that excludes whites. What's the point? Racism will never go away and will probably just get worse because of seperatism. You'll never get rid of racism, but common sense instead of affirmative action, racial preferences, and white studies will go a hell of a lot further in marginzalizing it.



"I'm going to fill a dark awful basement with radioactive cockroaches. Yep. Big nasty ones like skateboards on legs, that go click-click-click when they walk. And maybe poisonous. I'm going to starve them for a week.

Then I'm going to catch all the coercive priss-spigots in the world, the ones that want to ban second-hand smoke and dwarf-tossing and beer. I'll smear the rascals with bacon fat, so the roaches won't know what they're eating, as otherwise they might not.

Then I'm going to toss all those greased busybodies into the basement. And whoop. And dance. Ha."
- Fred Reed
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 10 days
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#6 Posted on
There are those who would say that setting up programs which attempt to give students coming from the worst educational systems in the country, depressed economic conditions, cultures of poverty and violence, that giving those young people enhanced opportunities to go to college and try to make something of themselves is a common sense thing to do. Or that the idea of saying some percentage of government contracts need to go to companies owned by people who are traditionally shut out of the process instead of just awarding to whomever the most connected company is would be common sense. Or that attempting to broaden the horizons of people who in many cases have never had any first-hand experience with poverty, racism, segregation, discrimination, or oppression would be common sense. But I'm guessing that common sense isn't quite something we have in common, as I'm guessing common sense is the english translation for status quo in your definition.

And regarding the graduation ceremonies. No one who does these (or if they are, a very small minority of them) is suggesting that these should take the place of general ceremonies. Instead what you have is groups of people whom generally are coming from backgrounds where there is no precedent for going to 4 year universities, or being out of an environment of racial hegemony, who are suddenly thrust into a totally new and radically foreign environment. So yeah, I can see why you would be offended that people of similar backgrounds and similar stories of overcoming what are often some pretty damn long odds would want to have a gathering together to celebrate the fact that they made it through. Us poor white folks, always getting kept out of the cool parties.

Racism will never go away until all the sides of the coin recognize their piece in it. No one is saying to go tan yourself until people think you are black. But at some point even the most "This is America and we are a meritocracy where the best ALWAYS rise to the top" has to recognize that there are still some serious flaws here. Some of them are ingrained to before when we walked the earth and are due to the hatreds and predjudices of generations before us. No, it is not my fault that my grandparents fled Chicago the minute a black family moved onto their block. But if things are ever going to change I need to recognize that there is a reason that the west side of the city is a smoldering economic wreck, and that it has to do with the capital base up and leaving in one fell swoop, and that rather than hold up my hands and say "it's not my fault, don't blame me!" instead say "this offends me as an American and a human being. How can we fix this for our fellow Americans?" But that doesn't win people over. That doesn't have the allure of creating a perception whereby the white race is being overrun by minorities intent on stealing all our hard-won comforts so they can get on welfare and enjoy themselves in undeserved jobs given to them only because of their skin color.



and maybe I should open up my sensitive side/but really, the sensitive side sucks./I've been there./You can only imagine the kinds of sweaters they make you wear.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#7 Posted on
The problem is that they base those "programs" on race.

Instead of going in and fixing the schools, they push ahead unprepared minorities in an effort to "make it fair." Of course the poor white folks are SOL.

It is a class thing, not a race thing. No one gets denied college because they are black. They get denied college because they come from a poor area, had a crappy school, and are therefore not learned enough to be there. Regardless of race.

How easy I can get a loan has nothing at all to do with race. It has everything to do with money. I am sorry, anyone who thinks otherwise has absolutly no idea how that industry works today....

(edited by Pool-Boy on 20.6.03 0900)




Still on the Shelf #13 - Bargain Bin Love: Part 1
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#8 Posted on
Of course pool, fixing the schools would require one of a couple of solutions, since as much as it would be wonderful to say "dismantle the teacher's union" or "increase standardized testing" would fix it, they haven't. The teachers union in Chicago is totally in ruins and students in high school take 12 different tests, most of which show them losing ground. So we can:

1) Allow students to go to different schools than the ones they are in-district for. This would be good except that:
- Most students do not have the capability to move much beyond their neighborhood, esp. in poor districts where almost all students walk or take buses (school or public).
- Those who do take advantage to leave the city to go to a top level suburban school will be looked upon with suspicion constantly. Oh wait, I forgot, school administrators in an otherwise upper-class school would never harass a kid to try to get them out of their school. My bad.
- If a large number of students started to try to move into better schools quickly the folks in that district would get up in arms about their property tax money going to kids not from there, which either would cause the good schools to cap enrollment (usually at just what the line for students in that district would be) or to start adding out-of-district fees to financially drive students away.

2) Changing the formula to balance the amount of money spent per child. This will never fly because again it would be spun as "taking things away from white kids who have done nothing wrong but be born white" or else all the schools would have to get New Trier's budget which would be lambasted as more government spending.

3) School choice vouchers. All of the same problems as before with moving from public schools, except the private schools can discriminate on any grounds they choose as to who they wish to admit. Thus causing even smaller amounts of students to be able to realistically choose this option.

Moving on to other points: I didn't know that there was a universal standard for how learned you had to be to go to college. However, to get back into your reasoning, no one is denied college due to their skin. Literally, a true statement, realistically, a flawed one. Because of the fact they are black (or hispanic), they will likely have been undertaught in the school system. They will be coming from a negative financial background because it is harder for minorities to get good jobs, partially due to the crappy educational system in the first place. Many of them will have been incarcerated for crimes that 95% of my teenage sister's white friends commit on a regular basis without any repurcussion from the law. So no, the fact that the college rejected them wasn't due to their skin. The fact that they were screwed from the get-go and given a 5 times higher hill to climb was due to their skin color.

And while I disagree with your statement about loans (having worked in the financial industry at points I know that more scrutiny was generally given to minority applications) let's even say you're right on that one. However, since we've already agreed their education is going to suck, this makes them less likely to be able to go to college. So now you're an employer presented with a young black man from the inner city who has not acheived a stellar academic record. How many jobs are going to hire this person? This person who has been again set up to fail by the system.

"But some of them make it out". Yes, some people can get lucky enough and have enough good things happen to escape. Of course millions of white kids are attending college, but the few who aren't good enough to avoid being in those few, and yes they are a few slots, that are being earmarked towards affirmative action slots are somehow more worthy of our sympathy? Well fuck that. If the blame for the failure of minorities can be laid at their feet, I am not going to accept the whining and bitching of some mediocre white kids who should have studied harder.





and maybe I should open up my sensitive side/but really, the sensitive side sucks./I've been there./You can only imagine the kinds of sweaters they make you wear.
-proletarian-
Chipolata








Since: 29.4.03

Since last post: 4056 days
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#9 Posted on
"Anybody else see no need to try and make white folks self-hating liberals on the taxpayer dime? And why can we as Americans and liberals as an ideology get past racial differences?"


It won't matter. In a thousand years or so we'll all be the same colour.

;)
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

Since last post: 42 days
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#10 Posted on
proletarian:

It won't matter. In a thousand years or so we'll all be the same colour. ;)

You mean GREEN? When you cut out all the bullshit, that's *really* the only color that matters...

FLEA



Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high...

FLEA - Yes, one of these days it *will* be nice to have a website that works -RYDERFAKIN.COM
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1269 days
Last activity: 1066 days
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by spf2119
    There are those who would say that setting up programs which attempt to give students coming from the worst educational systems in the country, depressed economic conditions, cultures of poverty and violence, that giving those young people enhanced opportunities to go to college and try to make something of themselves is a common sense thing to do. Or that the idea of saying some percentage of government contracts need to go to companies owned by people who are traditionally shut out of the process instead of just awarding to whomever the most connected company is would be common sense.

Like Pool said, the problem is that all of this is moot because race is a mitigating factor in the awarding of all of the above. And when it's not the case(like for women-owned businesses for example) it's gender.


    Originally posted by spf2119
    Or that attempting to broaden the horizons of people who in many cases have never had any first-hand experience with poverty, racism, segregation, discrimination, or oppression would be common sense.

Sorry, I didn't know that government indoctrination was something that was accepted in our society...


    Originally posted by spf2119
    And regarding the graduation ceremonies. No one who does these (or if they are, a very small minority of them) is suggesting that these should take the place of general ceremonies. Instead what you have is groups of people whom generally are coming from backgrounds where there is no precedent for going to 4 year universities, or being out of an environment of racial hegemony, who are suddenly thrust into a totally new and radically foreign environment. So yeah, I can see why you would be offended that people of similar backgrounds and similar stories of overcoming what are often some pretty damn long odds would want to have a gathering together to celebrate the fact that they made it through. Us poor white folks, always getting kept out of the cool parties.

All of what you said, you do realize, legitimizes continued racism. Why does 'being out of an environment of racial hegemony" mean that they should have a homogenous graduation(that, incidentally, for many does replace traditional graduation).

    Originally posted by spf2119
    But if things are ever going to change I need to recognize that there is a reason that the west side of the city is a smoldering economic wreck, and that it has to do with the capital base up and leaving in one fell swoop, and that rather than hold up my hands and say "it's not my fault, don't blame me!" instead say "this offends me as an American and a human being. How can we fix this for our fellow Americans?" But that doesn't win people over. That doesn't have the allure of creating a perception whereby the white race is being overrun by minorities intent on stealing all our hard-won comforts so they can get on welfare and enjoy themselves in undeserved jobs given to them only because of their skin color.

Oh jesus, stop the race baiting man. Government hand-outs, government intervention. It doesn't work. Ever wonder why so many Korean markets succeed? Or Chinese restaurants? Or Italian restaurants? Guess what, it 'aint a government grant that got it done. It's working your ass off to make a living, something that people of all races can relate to.


    Originally posted by spf2119
    I didn't know that there was a universal standard for how learned you had to be to go to college.

Isn't that the point of the SAT's, etc? Just asking(of course the SAT's are EVIL and RACIST so maybe I shouldn't mention them).


    Originally posted by spf2119
    The fact that they were screwed from the get-go and given a 5 times higher hill to climb was due to their skin color.

So what, we feel pity for people who were dealt a tough hand? What about the white mountain folks of Appalachia who have it just as bad, but don't have any fancy government affirmative action to get them out. Guess what though; people do.


    Originally posted by spf2119
    Many of them will have been incarcerated for crimes that 95% of my teenage sister's white friends commit on a regular basis without any repurcussion from the law.

So your sister's friends should go to jail. So what.

The more we excuse people from working under the same standards that the rest of society does(REGARDLESS OF RACE) the worse things are going to get.

(edited by Grimis on 20.6.03 1351)


"I'm going to fill a dark awful basement with radioactive cockroaches. Yep. Big nasty ones like skateboards on legs, that go click-click-click when they walk. And maybe poisonous. I'm going to starve them for a week.

Then I'm going to catch all the coercive priss-spigots in the world, the ones that want to ban second-hand smoke and dwarf-tossing and beer. I'll smear the rascals with bacon fat, so the roaches won't know what they're eating, as otherwise they might not.

Then I'm going to toss all those greased busybodies into the basement. And whoop. And dance. Ha."
- Fred Reed
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 6 days
#12 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis
    I never said there was no racism. But the argument could be made that the reason racism is still prevelant is because the racial integrationism that was promoted by civil rights leaders of the late 50's and early 60's has been replaced by racial seperatism to keep the races seperate, but to heap special privileges on chosen classes. This is why many colleges can have an "all-black/all-hispanic/all-whatever" graduation that excludes whites. What's the point? Racism will never go away and will probably just get worse because of seperatism. You'll never get rid of racism, but common sense instead of affirmative action, racial preferences, and white studies will go a hell of a lot further in marginzalizing it.


The majority of student majoring in Black Studies at UC Santa Barbara are NOT black. And I hear the same is true for most enthic studies programs - that the racial makeup of the program is not dominated by the race of that discipline.

And we had a Black Grad (they are not "all Black Grads") here - that did not exclude anyone, and in fact was attended by people of all races.

And to blame things like affirmative action and racial preferences (whatever the hell that means) for "racial seperation" when a simple look at the ecomonic and educational stats for these groups show that they have never had an equal opportunity is irresponsible (not to mention major racial problems within the justice system).

Its only been 40-50 years since the civil rights movement was in full swing. You seem to think that they fixed centuries with a few decades. Well, as amazing as the civil rights leaders of the 50's and 60's were, they could only do so much...



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#13 Posted on
The problem is, quite frankly, they have fixed the problem of racist. As much as they can.

Discrimination for employment, school... anything at all outside of a person's brain is illegal. Yes there are still racists in this world, but you cannot outlaw that feeling, only make acting on it a crime. They have done that in every concievable way.

The problem is no longer race- it is economics. Yes, minorities live in poorer areas statistically. How much of that is oppression, and how much of that is the belief in the black culture that if you do well in school, and GET OUT (or try to) that you are a sell-out? Have you seen the things that go on in these inner city schools? You are a race-traitor if you try to succeed in school. If you are going to point the blame at "race" for the problem, you should look everywhere. The culture of the impoverished minority groups is equally to blame, if not more.

The reason there are more whites in Black Studies classes is that universities require diversity courses as part of the curriculum. I am a man, and I took 2 women's studies courses in college, because I needed so many units of "diverity studies" to graduate. Your stats would be very different if that was not the case.

You say that there is a problem that minorities make up the majority of the underpriveledged and uneducated. I agree. But it seems clear to me that the last 50 years of programs like afirmative action only serve to make the problem worse. Race-based programs are not the answer- they have been tried and they have failed. What in the world is the problem with trying a different solution? We can agree there is a problem, and that it should be fixed. If you agree with that, why would you look at a failed solution, and deny what is in front of your eyes?

Race based programs are racist in unto themselves, and are part of the problem. Integration can't be accomplished like that.

To me, a group of Americans are not getting the education they need to go to college because they are poor. Therefore, something needs to be done to improve the schools and the quality of life where they live.

Sounds a whole lot more cut and dry when you are mucking things up by throwing race in there. Color blind indeed.


(edited by Pool-Boy on 20.6.03 1403)



Still on the Shelf #13 - Bargain Bin Love: Part 1
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00


Oh, yes, poor Cynthia.

I am sure it was Jewish plot.

Or maybe she was sold out by Uncle Tom, or the Tomettes.

Oh well, nothing that a little money from terrorist sympathizers won't fix!

http://216.239.51.100/search?
q=cache:9cfVvpWIy24J:www.washtimes.com/national/20020815-28550670.htm+cynthia+mckinney+arab+cash&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
[That link is from the WashTimes, cached on Google.]

And as far as all this affirmative action brewhaha: Good God, man. Take a look around you. As Ronald Reagan said, "We declared war on poverty, and poverty won." Government programs simply don't solve social ills. We throw billions and billions of dollars at things, and nothing changes. People are still poor. Especially black people. The government, in all its wisdom and all these decades, HAS NOT SOLVED ANYTHING [I exclude Jim Crow Laws, etc., because the government was responsible for creating those in the first place]. DC Schools spend like drunken sailors, and they still can't educate their students. When did LBJ propose the Great Society? 1964? Is Society now measurably greater because of it? Judging from all the complaining I hear from left and right, I'd say no. And that was forty years ago, before most people on this board were even born. [apologies to our elder statesmen Wieners].

And what about the cultural ramifications of continuing this race nonsense? Look at human history. Racial clashes always, always end in violence. Rwanda, N. Ireland, Israel/Palestine... Is that what you want? A nation of people who do not identify as Americans, but who identify as separate tribes? Do you want to create 50 mini-Quebecs out of our 50 states?

(edited by PalpatineW on 20.6.03 1748)


messenoir
Summer sausage








Since: 20.2.02
From: Columbia, MO

Since last post: 545 days
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AIM:  
#15 Posted on
I grew up homeless in an inner city, Pool Boy, and you're frankly an idiot of you think the reason blacks don't suceed is because they think learning is uncool.

Teenagers think learning is uncool, black or white. The reason people outside of the inner city succeed are because they have phones, they have vehicles, they have food, they have connections, they have work opportunities. The work opportunities in an inner city include fast food, factories and, if you're lucky, taking care of someone's home.

You try getting a good job when the employer has no way of getting hold of you. You try getting a good job when you have to work at your factory job 10 hours, and the only way of getting back and forth is the L train, or the subway. You try getting a good job when you can't afford a good pair of clothes for interviewing in.

You try succeding in school when all you've had to eat are two pieces of bread with ketchup on them. Of course, because you're attending a poor schools, they don't have the money to provide the kind of food you need to succeed and stay awake. And of course, if you tried to attend a rich school, every white student with any money would laugh at you for the clothes you're wearing.

You decide to stay in school under these circumstances when you have a choice between what seems like easy money in drugs or slaving away like your father and mother for barely enough to survive on.

When you've had to make these choices, then come back and try to blame blacks for their poverty.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 6 days
#16 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    The problem is, quite frankly, they have fixed the problem of racist. As much as they can.




I disagree... but that should not come as too much of a shock.


    Originally posted by Pool-Boy

    Discrimination for employment, school... anything at all outside of a person's brain is illegal. Yes there are still racists in this world, but you cannot outlaw that feeling, only make acting on it a crime. They have done that in every concievable way.



It not a questions any more of KKK-esque activity, but rather the remanants of institutionalized racism that are still being worked out of a well establishment system of discrimination. In other words, people's perceptions regarding race are infinately better now than 50 years ago. But there are still systemic problems that need to be addressed. You think we have done all we can. I disagree.



    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    The problem is no longer race- it is economics. Yes, minorities live in poorer areas statistically. How much of that is oppression, and how much of that is the belief in the black culture that if you do well in school, and GET OUT (or try to) that you are a sell-out?


Oppression versus a broad generalization? You can't do better than that?

They're fucking poor! And poor people, traditionally STAY POOR. It's not a question of hard work. In the mind of the poor, why bother? In all likelyhood, they are getting s substandard education anyway. That's how the system works. Sure there are cases of people getting out, but it is not easy and very rare.

I could digress on the poor quality of public education and its inability to relate to a non-white non-middle class culture...


    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Have you seen the things that go on in these inner city schools? You are a race-traitor if you try to succeed in school. If you are going to point the blame at "race" for the problem, you should look everywhere. The culture of the impoverished minority groups is equally to blame, if not more.


This is a cop out.

First of all, anti-intellectualism is fairly prevelant right now anyway, and has been for sometime. Doing well in school is rarely socially rewarded - especially in poor areas where you have bills to pay and families that need children to work. Most poor people realize that the chances out of their situation is slim.

I am not pointing a finger at "race". I am pointing a finger at a economic and criminal systems that were developed initally with racism as a fundamental principal, and which was only really challeneged within the last 50 years. You think we have undone as much as we can within those 50 years - I think that's horseshit, and insulting to people who sacrificed so much then to get us to where we are now.


    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    . The reason there are more whites in Black Studies classes is that universities require diversity courses as part of the curriculum. I am a man, and I took 2 women's studies courses in college, because I needed so many units of "diverity studies" to graduate. Your stats would be very different if that was not the case.


I did not say attending, I said MAJORING - as in more non-black students will earn a B.A. in Black Studies than black students.


    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    You say that there is a problem that minorities make up the majority of the underpriveledged and uneducated. I agree. But it seems clear to me that the last 50 years of programs like afirmative action only serve to make the problem worse. Race-based programs are not the answer- they have been tried and they have failed. What in the world is the problem with trying a different solution?


Affirmative action is very problematic. I agree. But you not dismantle a token system that, at the very least, offers some help in favour of nothing. If there is a better idea, then let's get it up and running - and then eliminate affirmative action.



    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    We can agree there is a problem, and that it should be fixed. If you agree with that, why would you look at a failed solution, and deny what is in front of your eyes?

    Race based programs are racist in unto themselves, and are part of the problem. Integration can't be accomplished like that.

    To me, a group of Americans are not getting the education they need to go to college because they are poor. Therefore, something needs to be done to improve the schools and the quality of life where they live.



Affirmative action is not a failed solution - its a token one that does little to improve things, but it's better than nothing. And I guarantee you, and solution proposed that would fix the problem would never get implemented - and you would probably hate it even more. When, on average, a black man is more likely to end up in prison than college, you have some serious problems to solve.

And I can here you responding with something about the "culture of the impoverished minority groups", but a lot of money has been made criminalizing minority youths.


    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Sounds a whole lot more cut and dry when you are mucking things up by throwing race in there. Color blind indeed.


    (edited by Pool-Boy on 20.6.03 1403)



Well, as much as you want to deny it - race is still very much an issue in this country. And while there great steps have been made, things are currently stagnating, or in some cases regressing.








"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1315 days
Last activity: 81 days
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#17 Posted on
Messenoir- you agreed almost completely with me, and you don't realize it. And if you DID grow up in an inner city, you know damned well that that is a prevailing attitude. I am not suggesting that it is the ONLY cause, but it is a big one. I have been there, and I have seen it. Why am I an idiot for believing, quite rightly, that this group shares some of the responsibility for their own problems? Why the hell is it always the god-damned white man holding the black man down that is the cause of all of this? Damn, liberals make us out to be worse than HHH. Wasn't it Belafonte that called Powell a "house-nigger?" But you are saying that this sort of behavior is IMPOSSIBLE in poor schools dominated by minorities? All of these race based entitlement programs have done nothing but create a generation of poor minorities who expect the government to pay their way. Who expect to be able to hold their minimum wage job no matter what, because they can threaten to sue for racism if they are fired (don't say this is a lie, because I have heard it more times than I can count. This story is a classic example of this mentality). Who won't stand up and work for a better life, and who blast those that do for being sell-outs.

As far as the rest of your post- you agreed with my 100%! It is not race, it is economics. It is about people not being able to afford things, not about people being black.

I have been poor. I no longer am, because I busted my ass. I am not by any stretch "rich", but I don't have to go without food for days at a time anymore because I was too broke to buy any. I clawed my way up and I refuse to believe that I could do this and a black person could not, simply because I am "the man" holding them down. That is BS.

There are sucessful blacks in this country despite the fact that we are supposingly making it impossible for them to be anything but poor.

I'll sit back and wait for the "RACIST" replies, because I know they are coming- because I know that even though my points are valid, that is the only way you people know how to deal with them. The fact is that I couldn't give a fuck what color your skin is. But the standard liberal argument in this case is that if you don't agree with all of these race-based BS programs, you must be.


(edited by Pool-Boy on 22.6.03 2153)



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ShotGunShep
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Since: 20.2.03

Since last post: 2537 days
Last activity: 2423 days
#18 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis


    Here is one telling quote:

    The exercise, which recently involved Cairns and her classmates in a course at the University of Massachusetts, had two simple rules: When the moderator read a statement that applied to you, you stepped forward; if it didn't, you stepped back. After the moderator asked if you were certain you could get a bank loan whenever you wanted, Cairns thought, "Oh my God, here we go again," and took yet another step forward.

    "You looked behind you and became really uncomfortable," said Cairns, a 24-year-old junior who stood at the front of the classroom with other white students. Asian and black students she admired were near the back. "We all started together," she said, "and now were so separated."





Maybe the teacher should then say, if all of you have the same grades and same SAT scores, and all applied to the same college, step forward if you think you have a good chance of getting in.

Asian students are often not admitted to esteemed universities because they aren't good enough for an asian. If they are black, white, or latino, they would have been admitted.

Affirmative action is wrong, and the only way to solve any of these problems is being COLORBLIND. Trying to right the wrong of racism is too hard. People will go overboard, on purpose and on accident.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 1 day
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#19 Posted on
As it is quite late and frankly this whole topic has become a giant clusterfuck which is spiraling towards proving Godwin's Law right once again, I just want to pull out one quote. From Grimis "Sorry, I didn't know that government indoctrination was something that was accepted in our society..." to which I would only say that I remember the conniption fit they threw on Fox News Channel when the court in CA said that the pledge of allegiance containing "Under God" couldn't be said in public schools. I guess we only allow certain types of indoctrination. Mindless patriotism and worship = Good. Realizing that not everyone in the world is you = bad.

Oh, and one more one more thing, since the whole topic started with how offended a couple of UMass students were, since the response from one side in this topic has basically been "get over it" may I give that to those poor fragile-psyched college kids. You'll be out in the world soon away from all those nasty intellectuals and hopefully never bothered by any of these questions again, so GET THE FUCK OVER IT YOU WHINING LITTLE BITCHES! Much better now....

(edited by spf2119 on 20.6.03 2329)


and maybe I should open up my sensitive side/but really, the sensitive side sucks./I've been there./You can only imagine the kinds of sweaters they make you wear.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 16 hours
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
(deleted by CRZ on 21.6.03 1036)
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