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The W - Current Events & Politics - UCLA student getting tasered (Page 2)
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StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 50 days
Last activity: 23 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Amazing how somebody breaks a policy, breaks a law, and is combative, yet the police should just be nice and ask him "pretty please" to leave.

Not what was being suggested.


    Here's an Idea. If he was a student shouldn't he have had his ID with him anyway?

No.


    Shouldn't he have left when asked?

Probably, depending on who these CSO people actually are. But for argument's sake, let's just say yes, he should have left. Wasn't he leaving already though? Mixed reports on this one.


    I've never been tazered, never been maced, never been hit with a baton, never been shot at, never been thrown to the ground by a cop. WHY? Because if I am ever in a situation where one is giving me orders, I comply. It works people.

So you're suggesting that as long as you always do exactly what the cops tell you to do, you'll never get into trouble? Life's pretty simple for you, it seems. But let's say you're right, and that works (ha). Are you saying that when someone DOESN'T comply, then the cops have free reign to whoop his ass?

- StingArmy
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 104 days
Last activity: 104 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Amazing how somebody breaks a policy, breaks a law, and is combative, yet the police should just be nice and ask him "pretty please" to leave.

    Here's an Idea. If he was a student shouldn't he have had his ID with him anyway?

    Shouldn't he have left when asked?

    Shouldn't he have complied with the officers when they confronted him?

    When does personal accountability come into play?

    I've never been tazered, never been maced, never been hit with a baton, never been shot at, never been thrown to the ground by a cop. WHY? Because if I am ever in a situation where one is giving me orders, I comply. It works people.


Wow. There are ways to subdue people without tazering them AFTER they've already been handcuffed. I'm going to guess that some of these very techniques are in fact part of training to become a police officer. Just because the guy was an idiot doesn't justify the officers being idiots too. It's possible for both sides to be wrong.

I would say that training is even more likely to be part of the process now because part of the reason the Rodney King beating happened was because the LAPD officers weren't trained in takedowns, they were only trained in striking suspects.

But then, those same officers were acquitted, so there is precedence suggesting police officers are above the law they supposedly enforce.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.21
The only thing I will add is yes he absolutly should have had his ID on him if he was in the school library. The college I went to and others I have visited either check your id to get in the door or if you want to use any computers, study rooms or check anything out. They routinely check ids. If you were there and had important school work to get done, you'd have to be an idiot to not bring your id with you.

Course you'd also have to be an idiot to get tasered and still not listen, so whatever.
Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.87
(deleted by Lexus on 20.11.06 1625)
CHAPLOW
Morcilla








Since: 14.5.04
From: right behind you

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.10
Geez people, this is not an issue of "Should he have had his ID? durr"

Definitely should have had the ID, Definitely shoulda left when asked.

That's not the issue,

It's a question of Excessive Force. The police used it on someone that was not compliant but definitely not dangerous- especially in the midst of four cops.

Stagger, those who would trade their freedom for safety deserve neither.



Amirite?!
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.98
    Originally posted by CHAPLOW
    Geez people, this is not an issue of "Should he have had his ID? durr"

    Definitely should have had the ID, Definitely shoulda left when asked.

    That's not the issue,

    It's a question of Excessive Force. The police used it on someone that was not compliant but definitely not dangerous- especially in the midst of four cops.

    Stagger, those who would trade their freedom for safety deserve neither.


I hate it when people use that line when it's not appropriate. We aren't trading our freedom's here. We're talking about a stupid kid that should have listened because he was breaking the rules. Me, I would have had my id, and if not I would have left. What freedom did I trade there? It's not some crazy rule to keep the man down. Maybe the cops didn't have to go where they did, but I don't really care because the kid was to blame to begin with and reacted like someone who was on drugs rather than a rational normal person.

Don't blow this up into something bigger when it's not.
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.46
Look, again, I don't know enough of the situation to be all-knowing on this, but any cop with half an ass knows a lot about force, because they drill you on it all the time.

You meet force with acceptable and not excessive force.

Should the kid have had his ID? Of course. Should he have left? Of course? Was the library justified in asking the cops to eject him? Sure.

ah, now it gets murky - we don't know exactly what happens next. Apparently the kid says "I ain't a goin'" or something like that, because the cops are gonna toss him out. Then he resisted their ministrations, probably, in their view anyway, violently, so they subdued him. So they tasered him.

We're probably still OK, although I question why that had to happen. I suspect there were not 4 cops to start with, just one or maybe 2. If the kid placed his hand on the cop, it was probably time to get the taser. In the old days, I would have sticked the guy at that point, I suspect, so I can see the taser shot.

Ok, so you cuff 'em. Still, all pretty good. Guys lay down all the time when you cuff 'em. They think maybe they still have some control. Now, it is possible, that the guy laid down, got on his back and up against a wall with his feet out and resisted, and that's when they tasered him again. But mostly, when guys are down while cuffed, you hand your weapon to your buddy, drop down on the guy, crush hell out of him, and get him on his face. Then you get your gun back, and you and your buddy grab and elbow each and one of you grabs the cuffs.

Trust me, the guy's going nowhere.

The tasering was excessive and unwarranted.

and if you haven't figured it out yet, I am the most conservative, law and order, neanderthal on here. If I think it is excessive, touchy feely liberals are probably having apoplexy at the concept.

Oh, and an update......
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines

The UCLA police officer videotaped last week using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was earlier recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, authorities said.

UCLA police confirmed late Monday that the officer who fired the Taser gun was Terrence Duren, who has served in the university's Police Department for 18 years.

Duren, who was named officer of the year in 2001, also has been involved in several controversial incidents on campus.

In an interview with The Times on Monday night, Duren, 43, defended his record as a campus police officer and urged people to withhold judgment until the review of his Taser use is completed.

"I patrol this area the same way I would want someone to patrol the neighborhoods where I live," he said. "People make allegations against cops all the time. Saying one thing and proving it are two different things."

(edited by AWArulz on 21.11.06 1020)


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We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    and if you haven't figured it out yet, I am the most conservative, law and order, neanderthal on here. If I think it is excessive, touchy feely liberals are probably having apoplexy at the concept.


We prefer the term "bleeding-heart", thankyouverymuch.

A fellow touchy-feely interviewed the student's attorney last week.

Keith Olbermann interviews Mostafa's Lawyer (YouTube)

(edited by Leroy on 21.11.06 0810)


"Oh my God! They have a shit-load of Cockapoo stuff!"
-Jennifer's greatest quote... ever.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 104 days
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    I would have had my id, and if not I would have left. What freedom did I trade there?


Your freedom to not be abused by overly aggressive cops looking to make an example out of you.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.98
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by wmatistic
      I would have had my id, and if not I would have left. What freedom did I trade there?


    Your freedom to not be abused by overly aggressive cops looking to make an example out of you.


But had he followed the rules, rules that were far from out of line or oppresive, they wouldn't have done anything. So again, what freedom was traded? The freedom to break rules you don't like?
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 104 days
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
    Originally posted by wmatistic
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
        Originally posted by wmatistic
        I would have had my id, and if not I would have left. What freedom did I trade there?


      Your freedom to not be abused by overly aggressive cops looking to make an example out of you.


    But had he followed the rules, rules that were far from out of line or oppresive, they wouldn't have done anything. So again, what freedom was traded? The freedom to break rules you don't like?


So a cop who kicks your ass for jaywalking is not in the wrong?
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.53
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    So a cop who kicks your ass for jaywalking is not in the wrong?


If a cop tries to cite you for jaywalking, and you...

1. Don't leave the crosswalk as the officer requested.
2. Become verbally combative when the officers again ask you to leave.
3. Force the officer to decide if you present a threat.
4. Fail to respond to repeated warnings that you are about to be tased.

...then you pretty much deserve it. Further if you respond to the initial tasing by AGAIN NOT doing what the officers are clearly saying, in the face of warnings that more tasings are coming, you deserve further tasings.

If a cop kicks your ass JUST because you were jaywalking, then of course you don't deserve it, just like this wouldn't have deserved it if he had JUST been trespassing in the library. If you escalate it with your actions you pretty much lose the right to complain if the cops do the same.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

*snip*

Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
-- The Guinness. to Cerebus
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 104 days
Last activity: 104 days
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      So a cop who kicks your ass for jaywalking is not in the wrong?


    If a cop tries to cite you for jaywalking, and you...

    1. Don't leave the crosswalk as the officer requested.
    2. Become verbally combative when the officers again ask you to leave.
    3. Force the officer to decide if you present a threat.
    4. Fail to respond to repeated warnings that you are about to be tased.

    ...then you pretty much deserve it.


No, you are still wrong.

You are wrong because the officer is wrong to threaten to taze someone for something so minor.

You are wrong because police officers should be trained to deal with someone like this without causing them anymore pain then is necessary.

You are wrong because police officers should enter a situation looking to resolve it while causing everyone involved as little pain as possible, including the suspect.

You are wrong because opening the door to let officers interpret who does and does not deserve to be abused leaves room for tons of unfortunate situations.

All of these things apply to both this hypothetical jaywalker and this person in the UCLA library.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 5 days
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.98
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      So a cop who kicks your ass for jaywalking is not in the wrong?


    If a cop tries to cite you for jaywalking, and you...

    1. Don't leave the crosswalk as the officer requested.
    2. Become verbally combative when the officers again ask you to leave.
    3. Force the officer to decide if you present a threat.
    4. Fail to respond to repeated warnings that you are about to be tased.

    ...then you pretty much deserve it. Further if you respond to the initial tasing by AGAIN NOT doing what the officers are clearly saying, in the face of warnings that more tasings are coming, you deserve further tasings.

    If a cop kicks your ass JUST because you were jaywalking, then of course you don't deserve it, just like this wouldn't have deserved it if he had JUST been trespassing in the library. If you escalate it with your actions you pretty much lose the right to complain if the cops do the same.


Very well put. I don't have a problem with people saying the cops went overboard, cause they probably did. But that kids actions cause me to not give a crap about what the cops did to him, so long as they did no permanant damage. He brought it on himself and I'm 100% ok with the result.

If I'm ever so stupid that I break a law and a cop asks me to do something and I not only refuse, but act like an idiot, I expect to get my jaw broken at the very least. I would deserve it. Maybe that's not how you feel it should be. But it is for me, so BucsFan don't try to tell me I'm "wrong" in this opinion.

(edited by wmatistic on 21.11.06 1856)
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

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Y!:
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.53
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    You are wrong because opening the door to let officers interpret who does and does not deserve to be abused leaves room for tons of unfortunate situations.

    All of these things apply to both this hypothetical jaywalker and this person in the UCLA library.


You are ignoring FACTS in this case, though. The FIRST thing you hear in the video is the guy yelling at the cops, not the other way around. He had MANY chances to prevent being tasered.

- He could have left when the library personnel asked him and not gottened tasered.
- He could have left when the cops first arrived and not gotten tasered.
- He could have left when the cops first threatened to taser him IN RESPONSE TO HIS COMBATIVENESS AND REFUSAL TO LEAVE, and not gotten tasered.
- He could have gotten up for the first tasering, when the cop REPEATEDLY told him "stand up", and only gotten taken the first shot from the taser.

You talk like these cops are machines that should know exactly how to respond to every situation, no matter how many shades of gray exist, and like they went into the library and started tasering the guy before he even had a chance to leave. He had MANY chances to leave. The ENTIRE situation was under HIS control. The cops knew that and they made decisions based on the situation they were confronted with.

It is EXTREMELY REASONABLE to assume that these cops didn't want to taser the guy even ONCE, but when they threatened him, he called their bluff. What would you have them do, Bucs, create a borderline hostage situation with all those other students in there? We don't know from the video how much time had passed from the beginning of that incident to the first tasering but, again, they guy had had MANY, MANY chances to end the situation and HE didn't. He forced people to make choices about him, based on his unruly behavior and refusal to leave and refusal to obey the rules and the cops.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    You are wrong because the officer is wrong to threaten to taze someone for something so minor.


He did NOT get tasered for being in the library without an ID card. He got tasered because he turned the situation, for whatever reason, into what it became. HE did it, NOT the cops.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

*snip*

Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
-- The Guinness. to Cerebus
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 6 days
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.25
I counted AT LEAST six cops there. Do they send six cops every time somebody doesn't have an ID card? Or do one or two show up and call for back up when a situation MIGHT esculate?

CHAPLOW
Morcilla








Since: 14.5.04
From: right behind you

Since last post: 160 days
Last activity: 160 days
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.10
wmatistic, for my opinion on the matter- you can basically just refer to AWArulz' post.

And by the way, what I meant by the line "those who would trade their freedom for safety deserve neither" is that you shouldnt just take it for granted that because someone has a badge they can do no wrong and you should just start dancing if they tell you.

Even if the kid deserved to get shot in the kneecap, we must hold the police to the standards outlined by AWA, because if not you are indirectly giving up your rights.



Amirite?!
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 104 days
Last activity: 104 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      You are wrong because opening the door to let officers interpret who does and does not deserve to be abused leaves room for tons of unfortunate situations.

      All of these things apply to both this hypothetical jaywalker and this person in the UCLA library.


    You are ignoring FACTS in this case, though. The FIRST thing you hear in the video is the guy yelling at the cops, not the other way around. He had MANY chances to prevent being tasered.

    - He could have left when the library personnel asked him and not gottened tasered.
    - He could have left when the cops first arrived and not gotten tasered.
    - He could have left when the cops first threatened to taser him IN RESPONSE TO HIS COMBATIVENESS AND REFUSAL TO LEAVE, and not gotten tasered.
    - He could have gotten up for the first tasering, when the cop REPEATEDLY told him "stand up", and only gotten taken the first shot from the taser.

    You talk like these cops are machines that should know exactly how to respond to every situation, no matter how many shades of gray exist, and like they went into the library and started tasering the guy before he even had a chance to leave. He had MANY chances to leave. The ENTIRE situation was under HIS control. The cops knew that and they made decisions based on the situation they were confronted with.

    It is EXTREMELY REASONABLE to assume that these cops didn't want to taser the guy even ONCE, but when they threatened him, he called their bluff. What would you have them do, Bucs, create a borderline hostage situation with all those other students in there? We don't know from the video how much time had passed from the beginning of that incident to the first tasering but, again, they guy had had MANY, MANY chances to end the situation and HE didn't. He forced people to make choices about him, based on his unruly behavior and refusal to leave and refusal to obey the rules and the cops.

      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      You are wrong because the officer is wrong to threaten to taze someone for something so minor.


    He did NOT get tasered for being in the library without an ID card. He got tasered because he turned the situation, for whatever reason, into what it became. HE did it, NOT the cops.


I'm sorry, but again, the suspect being wrong doesn't make the police officer right. There were six of them there, and he was handcuffed. Why does he need to be taered? The answer is that he didn't, the cop just thought he'd be a bigshot.

Some background (laist.com) on the officer:


    The UCLA police department identified the officer caught electrifying the student who did not produce his college ID card as Terrence Duren, an 18-year veteran of the UCPD.

    Duren hasn't had the smoothest career in law enforcement. He came to Westwood after being fired from the infamous Long Beach PD. A few years after being hired by UCLA he was accused of using his nightstick to choke a fratboy and the university asked the UCPD to fire Duren, but he was only given a three month suspension.

    In late 2003 Duren shot a homeless man, Willie Davis Frazier, Jr., in a Kerckhoff Hall bathroom. Frazier, who attempted at first to shun lawyers and represent himself, was imbalanced enough to spend time in a mental institution as the court tried to figure out if he was fit to stand trial.


I'm sure just time after time this officer happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, finding himself in the unfortunate position of having to violently hurt somebody unneccesarily, turning them from criminal into victim. He's just doing his job.
CHAPLOW
Morcilla








Since: 14.5.04
From: right behind you

Since last post: 160 days
Last activity: 160 days
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.10
So yeah, theres all this evidence via TheBucsFan- but just think about what I said right prior to that I guess.

This does have an impact on people's possible judgment on the situation tho Bucs. Very interesting.

(edited by CHAPLOW on 21.11.06 2002)


Amirite?!
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 4 hours
AIM:  
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
Wow, the cop had some problems in the past. Well then I'll overlook the kid being a complete ass and just bash those EVIL BIG BAD AUTHORITY FIGURES!! BOOO COPS!!!

Look, you think they were dead wrong. I think that kid, if any kid ever has, needed to get tasered. Funny thing is, the kid probably didn't learn a damn thing. Probably still think she was singled out due to race. Probably thinks the cops only tasered him because of race too.

I love how you(BucsFan) think the cop just wanted to be a bigshot but can't see that the kid wanted the same thing and that's what lead to this.

They were both overboard and to me if two tards wanna tear each other apart I say so much the better for the rest of us.

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