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The W - Current Events & Politics - UCLA student getting tasered
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wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs

Now, I know there are a million replies on the youtube site of people going after the police hardcore.

Am I the only one on the side of the police here? The kid was acting like a complete ass, and screaming and struggling more with each second. Isn't that more of a reaction of either an unstable person or someone on drugs than a normal individual? I don't know, I'm asking.

He violated the library policy of not having an id after 11, refused to leave. They called the cops, he refused to cooperate. They warned him, he screamed at them they removed him with force. Ok by me.
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Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
I saw this yesterday.

Frankly, I thought the video was one of the most disturbing things I'd seen in a long while. They're basically torturing the kid as students watching the ordeal are asking them to stop. They taser him at least once while he appears to be in handcuffs - and at least once more after that. I assume the didn't un-cuff him for the subsequent tasers.

Student shot with Taser by UCPD officers


    At around 11:30 p.m., CSOs asked a male student using a computer in the back of the room to leave when he was unable to produce a BruinCard during a random check. The student did not exit the building immediately.

    The CSOs left, returning minutes later, and police officers arrived to escort the student out. By this time the student had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, at which point the student told the officer to let him go. A second officer then approached the student as well.

    ....

    Laila Gordy, a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident, said police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number.



He was on his way out the door. There was no reason to use the kind of force they were using. And they ended up letting him go.

He certainly didn't deserve to be tasered FOUR TIMES.

(edited by Leroy on 17.11.06 0829)

"Oh my God! They have a shit-load of Cockapoo stuff!"
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BoromirMark
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Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.22
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    Am I the only one on the side of the police here?


I'm always on the side of the police, period. Egregious overusage of force by them is always the exception, not the rule, contrary to what anti-authority rabblerousers would like to believe.

Hyperbole: If it were up to me, more college kids would be tasered.



Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 510 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
The problem is the risk of injury involved in tasering someone.
    Originally posted by Wikipedia

    Between September 1999 and October 2004, there were 73 cases of deaths of subjects soon after having been shocked using Tasers. Of these cases:

    In 8 cases, medical examiners said Tasers were a cause or a contributing factor or could not be ruled out as a cause of death.
    In 18 cases coroners and other officials stated that Tasers were not a factor.
    In most of the 73 cases, drugs including cocaine, methamphetamine, and PCP were concluded to be the major factor leading to death.
    In many cases pre-existing cardiovascular conditions or other medical conditions were stated to be a factor.
    Several deaths occurred as a result of injuries sustained in struggles. In a few of these cases head injury due to falling after being shocked contributed to later death.


When there is a measurable risk of death involved, tasering needs to be considered a final alternative when nothing else will work.

That thing quoted in the article about threatening anyone who came too close with tasering shows how overboard the police were.
DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.75

    Originally posted by BoromirMark
    I'm always on the side of the police, period. Egregious overusage of force by them is always the exception, not the rule, contrary to what anti-authority rabblerousers would like to believe.
Even if overuse of force by them is the exception, which I believe it is, you're still on their side when it happens? Wow.

Back on topic: I'm trying to wait for all of the facts on the incident to come out before I scream RODNEY KING, but from what I've seen (the video & interviews of other students who were there), it looks to me like the campus cops went overboard. Even if he did refuse to leave*, he clearly wasnt _fighting_ them. I dont think tazering (tazing?) him 4-5 times was necessary, especially when he was in handcuffs and they were already carrying him out.

*I'm not saying it was ok for him to refuse to leave or that the cops should've just let him stay, I'm saying the punishment didnt fit the crime.



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AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.46
As many of you know, ex-cop here.

Uh, obviously, I don't know the whole story, but that seemed excessive.

Why couldn't they have lifted him with their batons and dragged his ass out of there? I did it a zillion times. My opinion is that they have their tasers and wanted to use them.

It felt wrong.



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wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.21
I'll have to go hunting for it, but the account I read said he wasn't on his way out the door and was being a dick about it. Depends on the witness point of view I suppose. I'll see if I can find that link.

Bottom line, if he had done what they told him to do there wouldn't have been any problem. So why does the kid get all the sympathy when he was too stupid to listen?
The King of Keith
Lap cheong








Since: 4.11.02
From: Winchester, VA

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.17
I don't know...from watching the video it seemed to me that the kid was not listening to them at all. They told him numerous times to stand up and he didn't. He was also screaming at them about the Patriot Act and just seemed like he wanted to cause a ruckus. He could have avoided the whole thing had he listened and came with them instead of freaking out on them.

Multiple taser shots did seem excessive, though. It was an awful thing to watch.



That's not Wolverine...
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.46
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    So why does the kid get all the sympathy when he was too stupid to listen?


excessive force was a constant issue when I was on the job. They constantly harped on it. and they were right. There's a time and a place for force. It's important to know how much force to use.

I suspect that if two of the like 5 officers that were there had gone on either side of the guy, and grabbed him by the elbow and cuff chain, lifted him up and placed him on his feet, and then held him, he would have gone, and easily.

admittedly, we didn't have tasers when I was in SFPD. But we had Batons, weapons, mace and our voices. You use your voice and the authority it conveys first. The guy didn't appear to have a weapon, and they had a large contingent. Maybe, the baton is used next, or maybe mace (today, it'd be pepper spray). As a rule, I would only use mace outside, because it would affect everyone in an inside area - which may be why they didn't pepperspray this guy.

That seems like the right solution here.

do we know if the guy struck the officer? That's the usual reason to use your baton (or, in this case, the Taser). I also used it (or threatened to) when someone threatened me with physicality.

I can't imagine hitting someone with a baton while handcuffed. I know I never needed to. Even guys who spit on me, and the guy that bit me. Now, I'll admit that I was rough on the guy that bit me. I lifted him up by the cuffs pretty hard.

again, it seemed to me that the tasering was excessive force.



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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.53
At around 11:30 p.m., CSOs asked a male student using a computer in the back of the room to leave when he was unable to produce a BruinCard during a random check. The student did not exit the building immediately.

I have no sympathy for the guy. Had he left when they first asked him, none of that would've happened. End of story.

Also, before the third Taser shot, that one cop must have told him "stand up" AT LEAST 20 times, and (this is cold, but) his legs sure seemed to be working fine when they hit him with the Taser again.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

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Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
A CSO is not a police officer. A CSO is basically a student who works as a security officer, and can often be just as difficult to deal with as the students themselves.

I work on a UC campus, and I both supervise, train, and interact with college students on a daily basis - and some of them have made me wish it was possible to literally beat sense into someone. I think it's quite possible - even likely - that the student here is responsible for ending up in those handcuffs - and maybe even the first taser strike.

What I don't think it is at all reasonable is the repeated use of a taser on someone who is clearly not struggling, who is not a danger, and who is restrained.



"Oh my God! They have a shit-load of Cockapoo stuff!"
-Jennifer's greatest quote... ever.
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.64
This is what happens when the cops are not allowed to use excessive force - at least not in public

AWA: excessive force was a constant issue when I was on the job. They constantly harped on it. and they were right. There's a time and a place for force. It's important to know how much force to use.

I suspect that if two of the like 5 officers that were there had gone on either side of the guy, and grabbed him by the elbow and cuff chain, lifted him up and placed him on his feet, and then held him, he would have gone, and easily.

admittedly, we didn't have tasers when I was in SFPD. But we had Batons, weapons, mace and our voices. You use your voice and the authority it conveys first. The guy didn't appear to have a weapon, and they had a large contingent. Maybe, the baton is used next, or maybe mace (today, it'd be pepper spray). As a rule, I would only use mace outside, because it would affect everyone in an inside area - which may be why they didn't pepperspray this guy.


You're right. But the main reason for tasers (at least what I've been told) is to not be so blatant as a baton, or fist - or make a scene with the innocent bystanders using mace (which works everytime), but leaves a mess. Tasers are clean and to the point - and not really dangerous, just something to get someone's attention - but something that's tough to use in court as "excessive force" because 1) you warn the guy and 2) you tell the guy twice and so be it if he gets what he deserves. Not a beating, but an "attention grabber" - at least that's what they call them down here

The problem is - the taser is good for nothing except quality entertainment. They can't set the voltage high enough to disable, or knock someone out, it just makes them scream like bitches and then tell you to Fuck Yourself. Especially a junkie or a drunk

See - it's a RIOT when that kid goes from "Patriot Act" to crying the blues. Then FUCK YOU...then - ha hahah aha ha.

The best thing is, this would be a reason for a good old fashioned protest, or maybe a demonstration. But these kids have PS3 this week, Thanksgiving is coming and so, let's just say I didn't see a more-than-a-couple-weeks -on-myspace-yelling protester in the bunch

FLEA

(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 17.11.06 1936)


Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

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AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.46
    Originally posted by Leroy
    What I don't think it is at all reasonable is the repeated use of a taser on someone who is clearly not struggling, who is not a danger, and who is restrained.


Exactly. I wonder if the officers are properly trained in "use of force". I am going to predict a large judgement against someone here.

again, I have no problem with the cuffs, and even an initial subduement - whether by baton or taser or whatever.



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ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Does anyone else take issue with the fact that, ignoring everything else, this whole incident occurred just for the mere fact that some dude apparently minding his own business couldn't produce a damn ID card for a "random check"? Hardly seems a threat to public safety, does it?

Why is there a need for "random checks" at all? Given that UCLA is a publically funded university, why wouldn't the library be available for public use? This was the case at the two public universities that I attended, and it makes sense to me. But that may not be common, I really don't know.

Now I think the student did have a chip on his shoulder over the situation, as it probably wasn't worth getting tasered over. But still, it seems to me that the end result did not help public safety and probably came closer to doing harm (as it seemed to be inciting the students watching on).



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Weisswurst








Since: 19.6.02
From: New Orleans

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#15 Posted on
ges: From what I understand, the policy at that particular library is that they close to the general public at 11 PM but remain open 24 hours for the student populace, and that's why they do the night checks.

I guess there was some outrage, after all...

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=39010


    Meyerhoff Park was electric Friday afternoon when more than 400 students, faculty, staff, parents and community members gathered to protest the use of a Taser multiple times on a UCLA student in Powell Library on Tuesday night.[...]


    According to a statement released Wednesday by UCPD, the incident in which Mostafa Tabatabainejad was stunned with a Taser several times for failing to produce his BruinCard or leave the library upon request is currently under internal review.[...]

    Several eyewitnesses also spoke to the crowd during the rally, though some declined to give their names.

    UCPD has maintained that the UCPD officers could not have known at the time that the student was not a threat; Ross said the officers used force because they felt they were in danger.

    But some witnesses said the response seemed to be inappropriate for the situation.

    "I personally couldn't sleep that night," one speaker said. "This was majorly excessive. There was no reason for (police) to do this once they had complete control of the situation."



I know that alluding to the fact that the student was of Middle-Eastern descent as a possible reason for being considered dangerous might be viewed as a knee-jerk reaction, but:

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38986

    Originally posted by David Lazar
    Many question the use of any force in this situation, but force is not without its purposes. To keep the rest of us safe, officers expose themselves to the constant threat of violence, and some officers see their colleagues killed in the line of duty.

    For this reason, there are certain tactics police use in order to protect their own lives, tactics that may seem brutal or heavy-handed if taken out of this context.

    We now know, in hindsight, that Tabatabainejad was not dangerous, but he might have acted in such a way to make the police worried about potential danger. People should take this into account before jumping to conclusions.

    Regardless of whether or not the police used excessive force, we should all agree that Tabatabainejad is at least partially to blame for his less-than-brilliant behavior.


I have no idea what he is talking about. The ONLY QUESTION is the one about excessive force. No one is arguing that the kid should not have left when he couldn't present an ID. People are arguing that once he was cuffed and on the floor, police shouldn't have kept on tasing him once he had lost command of his limbs. The cops actually aggravated the situation and made it more dangerous. Watch the video again, towards the end one of them tells a student to back off when she asks for his badge number or he'll tase her too. Shouldn't a police officer try to avoid threatening a verbally hostile yet peaceful bystander if he doesn't want to incite a crowd towards violence?

I can't help but feel that he wasn't a guy of Iranian descent named Tabatabainejad, they wouldn't have felt so threatened by his verbal hostility; they would have just smacked him a bit and thrown him out, or at least taken him outside first and then kicked his ass. There wouldn't have been an after-the-fact justification that he might have had a gun or a knife or a bomb and so he needed to be subdued immediately. It would have just been a short news blurb about some asshole kid who refused to leave the library quietly, smarted off to the cops and got tossed for his troubles.



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SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.93
    Originally posted by ges7184
    Why is there a need for "random checks" at all? Given that UCLA is a publically funded university, why wouldn't the library be available for public use? This was the case at the two public universities that I attended, and it makes sense to me. But that may not be common, I really don't know.
I read in an article (can't find the source, but it's in multiple articles about this) that the library was open to the public until 11:00PM. Or, at least, they check after 11.

I think that, regardless of why there's a rule like this, it exists and the person was asked to leave and didn't cooperate so he had to be removed by force, because those are the rules and he can always challenge them later. It's not like he's Jack Bauer and needs to go rogue to save people's lives. He was just in a library.

The force that was used was unreasonable AFTER he was restrained. If you're any kind of cop who's commissioned to use tasers and handcuff people, you should know enough to handle someone once they're on the ground and handcuffed.

Tasering them because they won't stand up (as it appeared to me) isn't the right response, and they should have been smarter than that. But, they aren't since they did it multiple times.

ZZZZZAAAPP!
"Did that work?"
"Nope!"
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ZZZZZZAPP!!
etc.


(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 17.11.06 1959)
CHAPLOW
Morcilla








Since: 14.5.04
From: right behind you

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.08
Definite use of Excessive Force.

Even if the guy is being a dick, you handcuff him and drag him out. Period.

Even if you feel the need to taser him, you taser him once and drag him out. Period.

No excuse for this.



Amirite?!
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Indeed. Tasers aren't just there to make a cop's jbob as easy as humanly possible. Just because they guy wouldn't stand up isn't a reason to zap the shit out of him.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.25
Amazing how somebody breaks a policy, breaks a law, and is combative, yet the police should just be nice and ask him "pretty please" to leave.

Here's an Idea. If he was a student shouldn't he have had his ID with him anyway?

Shouldn't he have left when asked?

Shouldn't he have complied with the officers when they confronted him?

When does personal accountability come into play?

I've never been tazered, never been maced, never been hit with a baton, never been shot at, never been thrown to the ground by a cop. WHY? Because if I am ever in a situation where one is giving me orders, I comply. It works people.
Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.96
I agree with AWA, but from a different standpoint. I'm a bouncer, and never was a police officer.

For starters, there's the issue of escalation. I didn't see everything that went down, but by the time the camera was on the incident, the guy was in cuffs, and should have been on his way out the door. Grab and drag, keep moving. Stoping to taze the bastard isn't getting the job done, it's making a crowd form around you that may (or may not) include persons who could take exception and may get themselves involved unnecessarily.

What I saw was unprofessional, undignified, and an endangerment of even more persons.



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