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The W - Current Events & Politics - Told you so?
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Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#1 Posted on
At this point, to me, it looks like the "active combat" phase of this war is starting to come to an end- granted it is not over yet, but It seems pretty clear to me that Iraq is under our thumb.

What has happened so far? Well, as of this point, the pyro tech of Great White has killed more Americans than the entire Iraqi army. There have not been hundreds and thousands of American and British casualties, as leading Democrats seemed to claim there would be. We are discovering numbers of potential WMD caches, and if preliminary tests are any indication, they will be confirmed as WMD which were either well hidden, or ready to fire. Hussein was clearly lying to the UN about having these weapons, and contrary to many claims, he was not disarming voluntarily. Many leading Democrats questioned whether or not we would even find these things (since the weapons inspectors really found nothing). In addition to that, terrorist training camps have been found and taken over. Al Quadi was alive and well in Iraq, and their camps have been found and destroyed, contrary to the leading Democrat denial of terrorist links.

Iraqi civilian casualties have been minimal, also contrary to the claims by leading Democrats (and our favorite Hollywood libs) claiming that THOUSANDS of civilians will be killed by us. In fact, it seems pretty clear that the Iraqi army has killed more of its own civilians than we have. Humanitarian aid is getting through to areas under our control, and the people are being helped.

And the people themselves, contrary to Democrat claims, are rising up against SADDAAM as we speak and ARE welcoming our troops with open arms. Also contrary to leading Democrat predictions to the contrary.

They are now talking six months to get an Iraqi government up and running- not years of rule by a US general that some were threatening would be the case. Over 80% of Americans according to polls (the least of my points, as I put almost no stock in polls) support this war at this point, and a HUGE 91% feel the war is going extremely well. This just illustrates that the war protestors everywhere are nothing but a highly annoying, very vocal, minority.

My question is, when are these Democrats going to come out and admit they were wrong? Closer consideration suggests to me that at this point, Bush has been right on pretty much all counts. These leading Democrats had to have access to at least SOME of the information Bush did leading up to this, but they deliberatly took a stance opposing Bush on ALL of these issues. So, in essence, in matters concerning this war (a very serious deal indeed), they were either totally ignorant, incompetent, lying, or some combination of the three.

If they are willing to go to these lengths in such a serious matter that has severe consequences to the future of this country, exactly what are they not getting done, or opposing in Congress that would be good for this country, just to spite Bush? I mean, beyond the judicial nominations?

Just when are the Democratic voters (especially my fellow Wieners) going to take their elected officials to task for this blatant hypocricy? Exactly how far do they have to stray from the ideals (some of them, I admit, are admirable), and blatantly contradict them for small, and often failed, attempts at political gain. At what point to Democratic voters finally start casting out those officials who abandon what their voters feel is best for the country in favor of purely political maneuvering???


(edited by Pool-Boy on 7.4.03 1050)



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MoeGates
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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
As for who'd right and whatnot, I'm not sure myself what's "right" or who to believe about what, or any of it, so I'll let others answer those questions.

My question is, when are these Democrats going to come out and admit they were wrong? Closer consideration suggests to me that at this point, Bush has been right on pretty much all counts. These leading Democrats had to have access to at least SOME of the information Bush did leading up to this, but they deliberatly took a stance opposing Bush on ALL of these issues. So, in essence, in matters concerning this war (a very serious deal indeed), they were either totally ignorant, incompetent, lying, or some combination of the three.

If they are willing to go to these lengths in such a serious matter that has severe consequences to the future of this country, exactly what are they not getting done, or opposing in Congress that would be good for this country, just to spite Bush? I mean, beyond the judicial nominations?

Just when are the Democratic voters (especially my fellow Wieners) going to take their elected officials to task for this blatant hypocricy? Exactly how far do they have to stray from the ideals (some of them, I admit, are admirable), and blatantly contradict them for small, and often failed, attempts at political gain. At what point to Democratic voters finally start casting


But this is just silly. Who's "right" and who's not may be up for debate, but the idea that one party or politician does things out of noble ideals and love for America, while the other party or person does things for craven political gain only and doesn't care about the good of the country is just naive. Especially when the people you are accusing of doing things for political gain are the ones who took the UNPOPULAR side of the argument. And even if Jr. ends up being right, the fact that he cried wolf so many times before about evidence that he was right (or "lied," to be a little less PC about it) leads many people like myself to not give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this stuff. The fact that you think Jr. doesn't care about politics is a testimony to how good his team is at them.

You say that some folks won't accept the evidence or believe Bush no matter what? That may be true. But on the flip, there's a lot of people that made up their mind early that Jr. was telling the gospel truth about everything, and no evidence to the contrary will change their minds. Which leads to very different ideas of what constitutes "proof."

Opposing things on ideological ground, even if you happen to disagree with them, and even if they happen to be wrong, isn't doing things to spite the President.

Now, impeaching someone for lying about getting a blowjob (especially considering the private life of some of those doing the impeaching)? THAT'S doing something just to spite the President. To be non-partisan and fair about it, not confirming a nominee because he's known to have a few too many at times (especially considering the drinking habits of some of those voting against the nomination), is also doing something just to spite the President.

(edited by MoeGates on 7.4.03 1406)


It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
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#3 Posted on
I never claimed that Bush did not care about politics- but there is a difference between caring about politics, and placing politics above all else.

And that is dodging the issue, Moe...





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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    The fact that you think Jr. doesn't care about politics is a testimony to how good his team is at them.

Did I ever mention Karl Rove is God?



MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Geez, if you're a politician placing politics above all else, are you going to do a) the popular thing or b) the unpopular thing? Maybe if you explained how a stance against the war benefited anyone politically in any way, I'd buy your argument.

Grim - I will agree Karl Rove is a supernatural being (more akin to the Devil than God though) if he manages to keep up the ridiculous farce that is the Bush Jr. presidency throught the 2004 elections.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

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#6 Posted on
I'd like to hold off on the gloating over lack of casualties until its all over. The main reason Berlin was not blown up from within in Hitler's 'These cowards deserve to rot for a 1,000 years' rage was because he could not find someone willing to go that far for him. If Saddam finds that type of nutcase from within and decides to go out by taking out Baghdad with him, then all bets are off.



There is only one man left to save Vince McMahon and the WWF/E. Where have you gone Greg Gagne, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Well, as of this point, the pyro tech of Great White has killed more Americans than the entire Iraqi army.


Tasteless. As is your immature, partisain finger-pointing.



-- Asteroid Boy


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Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

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#8 Posted on
We are discovering numbers of potential WMD caches, and if preliminary tests are any indication, they will be confirmed as WMD which were either well hidden, or ready to fire.

I'm not sure what you were referring to. Thus far, every instance of reported "WMDs" have been total nothings - the most recent being the "Sarin" which was actually just pesticides in a pesticide warehouse. (Sarin exists in small quantities in pesticides - any basic test looking for Sarin would ring positive when testing a pesticide.)

The only thing that even comes close are the BM-21 rockets discovered this morning, but A) BM-21's don't have a range of 300KM as was reported, but rather about 20KM (and Iraq's allowed to have short-range artillery missiles), and B) they found traces of mustard only, and a small amount of mustard on a small truck-launched rocket is stretching it pretty far for "weapons of mass destruction".

(I think my personal favorite thus far, incidentally, was the "cache of mustard" hidden in the Euphrates River. Mustard hydrolizes in water and turns into diluted hydrochloric acid and petrochemical agents, becoming harmless. You can't store it in a river.)

Many leading Democrats questioned whether or not we would even find these things (since the weapons inspectors really found nothing).

...and neither has the invading army.

In addition to that, terrorist training camps have been found and taken over. Al Quadi was alive and well in Iraq, and their camps have been found and destroyed, contrary to the leading Democrat denial of terrorist links.

This is untrue on several levels. Al Qaeda ("Quadi"?) isn't active in Iraq - Ansar-al-Alaam is. More specifically, they're active in the northern hills of Iraq, which is the part where Saddam has little to no control. Furthermore, given that Ansar-al-Alaam has in the past stated their desire to see Saddam removed from power in Iraq, it's highly unlikely he's supporting them.

Iraqi civilian casualties have been minimal, also contrary to the claims by leading Democrats (and our favorite Hollywood libs) claiming that THOUSANDS of civilians will be killed by us.

Independent civilian body counts (since the US isn't keeping a civilian body count) cost civilian death at over a thousand at a minimum. That's strictly from what they can tell from verified news reports and hospital notices - as hardline a method as possible to keep overinflated totals from arising.

Humanitarian aid is getting through to areas under our control, and the people are being helped.

Umm Qasr's aid depots are a joke - the town is as anarchic as, well, Somalia back in the day. Photo ops of Marines handing out MREs do not a coherent humanitarian aid plan make. There are numerous accounts of severe water and foot shortages in Umm Qasr right now.

And the people themselves, contrary to Democrat claims, are rising up against SADDAAM as we speak and ARE welcoming our troops with open arms.

"Rising up" is a bit of a joke, given that they aren't, not in overwhelming numbers. Heck, in Basra right now there's streetfighting between the pro-Saddam and anti-Saddam (or, if you prefer, pro-US and anti-US, it's probably more accurate that way) Iraqis, and the anti-Saddamites are from all accounts the smaller and losing side.

They are now talking six months to get an Iraqi government up and running- not years of rule by a US general that some were threatening would be the case.

They can talk all they like, but you know what? It ain't going to happen.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#9 Posted on
SIGH. I guess pointing out the obvious to the blind is a fruitless endeavor- they will ignore any evidence they choose too- even if it is right under their nose-

And it was not tasteless in the least. And I don't see how expecting voters to hold their elected officials to task is "Partisain."

And how clever to point out typos. That MUST make me wrong!





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Gavintzu
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
On one hand ...

The invasion has gone really well for the coalition forces. Judged by most wars in the last 50 years, it has been a resounding success. This isn't to say hundreds of Iraqi civilians, and thousands of Iraqi soldiers (many of them conscripts), haven't been killed in horrible ways. But overall it has been quick and decisive, which is a very good thing in wars.

Rumsfeld and his generals have been criticized for moving in the ground troops too quickly, but I applaud the move. It has led to more American and British casualties than would have been the case if they had bombed for two months before the invasion, but it has led to much fewer civilian deaths. Fighting wars on the ground in close is not good but it's better than bombing from 20000 feet for weeks on end.

On the other hand ...

America has had a history of winning wars then losing the peace. I'm afraid we are seeing the beginning of that in Afghanistan, and already hints of that are being seen in Iraq.

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"It would only be natural to expect that ... having given life and blood to liberate Iraq, the coalition would have the leading role. I don't think anybody is surprised by that," President George W. Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, told reporters."

The American administration is gonna have to be really, really careful with this line of thought. My grandfather actually remembers when Iraq was a British colony. I'm sure many Iraqi grandfathers do too. Anger at western colonialism isn't an ancient memory there ... it explains a lot of current Arab resentment. If America is seen in the next few years to be actually occupying Iraq and exploiting its oil wealth and people, it would lead to increased tension and terrorism.

All in all ... things are going well. The optimistic angel on my right shoulder is whispering louder than the devil on my left one. However, I would be really careful about saying "I told you so" ... American support for the Afghan rebels in the 1980s didn't blow back in its face until 2001. Let's hope this war doesn't lead to a blowback in 2018.






Any man who hates small dogs and children can't be all bad.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
SIGH. I guess pointing out the obvious to the blind is a fruitless endeavor- they will ignore any evidence they choose too- even if it is right under their nose-

You do understand that from other's point of view, they could say the same thing about you. You've made up your mind Jr. is telling the gospel truth, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will disuade you - even if it is right under your nose.




It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Michael Novotny, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Tom Daschle, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
Nate The Snake
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Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#12 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    SIGH. I guess pointing out the obvious to the blind is a fruitless endeavor- they will ignore any evidence they choose too- even if it is right under their nose-


How deliciously ironic.



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"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
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#13 Posted on
I actually have to disagree with you there- I most certainly do not believe everything Bush says, nor do I take it as gospel. I just happen to think, especially in this case, he is right. Ask me about policies like- his stance on Mexico and illegal immigration, and you will get an entirely different tone.

We can all quibble about petty bits of facts, and each claim that the other is ignoring the truth. We can also each go with an argument that goes much like this- "Well, I am an A, and you said my party member did X, but your B party guy did X too, so you have no right to say anything..."

My point is that this is an entirely different case. The behavior of several key Democrats has been ridiculous in the extreme. How can you possibly say that Dashelle is behaving like a responsible leader? He is acting like a spoiled brat who lost his favorite toy.

This is not to say that ALL Democrats have been acting badly- I for one, have heard nothing bad come out of Lieberman's mouth since this whole thing began. I disagree with the guy, but I gained a little more respect for him.

In regards to petty quibbling about the war- you can point here and there and say "See? Civilians died!" or, "Those weren't REALLY chemical weapons (even when it is pretty damned clear that they exist, whether they have been confirmed this early or not)" - but the fact is that this war has gone exceptionally well. Better than most people could have expected. But it is a far cry from the virtual humiliating defeat several key Democrats were predicting, and insisting would happen. I just am wondering why you (any of you), as a Democrat, would want someone like that representing you.

Yeah, Bush and other Republicans have played politics. But I defy anyone to point to a single instance where any Republican in office today placed politics so far above the "common good" by twisting facts, and lying for political gain. You can't - this is the biggest war in most of our lifetimes. You can go back to Kosovo and most of the Republicans, when the battle was engaged, behaved extremely well.

I am not asking for an opinion on Bush- and again, I am not saying "Look at THIS! the Republicans are RIGHT!!!" All I am saying that Daschelle and and several others have acted like complete asses, and now that the egg is on their face, I am wondering why the Democrat rank-and-file are still standing behind them.

At least I admitted when Gingrich started acting like an ass.....


    Originally posted by Nate The Snake

      Originally posted by Pool-Boy
      SIGH. I guess pointing out the obvious to the blind is a fruitless endeavor- they will ignore any evidence they choose too- even if it is right under their nose-


    How deliciously ironic.


Jeez dude- how about just saying "I'm rubber, your glue!!!" Maybe a specific instance where I am ignoring evidence right under my nose might be in order?

(edited by Pool-Boy on 7.4.03 1428)




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asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    SIGH. I guess pointing out the obvious to the blind is a fruitless endeavor- they will ignore any evidence they choose too- even if it is right under their nose-



It must be hard for someone so enlighted to have to dumb it down for the rest of us.

Sheesh, and people think LIBERALS are elitist?



-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport."
"Was he no-selling?"
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.96
Ranting from a zany Canadian:

Well, according to CNN's sources, they've found what they think is chemical weapons in Iraq. You mean a tyranical dictator lied?? REALLY???

War sucks, but in this case something had to be done and I guess now we can see that this was one way of handling it.

Have lives been lost? Hell yeah, and God bless those poor souls who had to give their lives for this, but at least because of them the Iraqi people will have the chance to build their own government.

I'm not saying they WILL, and if the (perhaps puppet)government the Americans put in fails and succumbs to military action from the remaining Iraqis...crap. But, let's give 'em the chance to run their own damned country without Saddam Hussein before we tell 'em what to do.



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Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#16 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Maybe a specific instance where I am ignoring evidence right under my nose might be in order?


Or, perhaps, ignoring a lack of evidence is a better way to put it...

Every "chemical weapons" cache we've found, as has been pointed out already, has turned out to be a large amount of jack shit. At this point, taking yet another claim that "we've really, really found something this time, we promise" at face value, in spite of the fact that every other time it's turned out to be false... well, I'd say at the very least you've got some lovely rosey glasses on.

Specific enough?



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

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#17 Posted on
I guess pointing out the obvious to the blind is a fruitless endeavor- they will ignore any evidence they choose too- even if it is right under their nose

Funny. Here I thought I had provided specific evidence to the contrary and you were spouting vague generalities.
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