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The W - Current Events & Politics - To the Moon and Mars... (Page 2)
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eviljonhunt81
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Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.25
Is there anything the country isn't equally divided about?


Actually, I find it pretty disgusting that people would oppose (and support) the program just because it's Bush's. yeah, it is another blatantly political, vote-grabbing move, but dammit, space is cool. The government really doesn't spend much money on things I like, so I'm always happy when the occasion arises that it will.



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drjayphd
Scrapple
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Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.94
YOUR Out-Of-Context Quote of Whenever (thanks, MoeGates!): "I wish MY countrymen weren't so uptight about stuff like outdoor marajuana use and casual man-on-man anal love."
    Originally posted by StaggerLee


    Yes, thats all and well, but, that is all talking about research done by astronaughts on the space shuttle, which never actually went to the moon. So, like I said before, what do we have to GAIN from going there? And, none of that which is listed shows any one thing that was found BECAUSE WE PUT PEOPLE IN SPACE, yet, it was all a result of commercial uses of technology. Silly putty and saran wrap are great, but should we go around saying "LETS GO TO WAR! IT GIVES US SO MUCH USEFULL, EVERY DAY STUFF!"? Of course not.

    (edited by CRZ on 12.1.04 1234)


Well, for the most part, going into space doesn't kill anyone. There's no human cost. Just an astronomical bill from NASA.



DEAN's Nuggets of Wisdom:

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StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.43
Sorry, My point was, going into space has taught us very little that has helped out humanity. Things that have come, as a side effect, or a nice fringe benefit from the technology developed to go to space may be great, but, actually putting a man on the moon (again) isnt going to help us learn anything. Did a colony of space people occupy the other side while we werent looking in the past 30 years? We are only going to find the same rocks, dirt and debris that was there back the last time we went.

I hate social spending, but christ, if the government HAS To spend a few billion, spend it where it really WILL help out nation.

DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 7 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.54
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Sorry, My point was, going into space has taught us very little that has helped out humanity. Things that have come, as a side effect, or a nice fringe benefit from the technology developed to go to space may be great, but, actually putting a man on the moon (again) isnt going to help us learn anything. Did a colony of space people occupy the other side while we werent looking in the past 30 years? We are only going to find the same rocks, dirt and debris that was there back the last time we went.

    I hate social spending, but christ, if the government HAS To spend a few billion, spend it where it really WILL help out nation.




I understand the sentiment, but that is the kind of apples and oranges thinking that hinders our progress as a society. Doing this kind of project is necessary to us as a people. Those fringe benefits you dismiss are now woven into our everyday life. It's not a question of one or the other. A country as rich as ours should be able to help the underclass and move forward in exploring space.



Perception is reality
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.43
NObody can answer my question though. WHY IS GOING TO THE MOON AND MARS "NECESSARY TO US AS A PEOPLE"?

I agree somewhat that we should help out those people in need, since we have the means, but still, what do we TANGIBLY GAIN by these missions?
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
What do we tangibly gain? I already mentioned it - money flowing into the economy (somebody needs to build the spacecrafts & equipment needed), technology & scientific advancements that flow into the private sector (that can benefit you, me, the environment, society).

I think you're hung up on the intangibles, i.e. knowledge, inquisitive nature of humans, sense of adventure/exploration, quest to expand our horizons, fascination with the heavens, etc.



spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.88
Spiff, it seems to me like there's probably far better terrestrial investments that could be made with the (no pun intended) astronomical amount of cash needed for everything Bush proposed. Things which would generate more return on earth, and probably more in the way of knowledge than having a couple guys in space suits bumbling about on the Moon or Mars can do.

And really, if there were anything else to be gained by this, private industry would have done it by now. I just want to know why the conservatives haven't blown a gasket at the thought of the government spending hundreds of billions of tax dollars for seemingly no reason. If Dr. Dean had proposed this you know this would be being assailed like a wolfpack on an injured animal. (and just for the record I would be with them on this one)



Toil not to gain wealth, cease to be concerned about it. Proverbs 23:4

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bash91
Merguez








Since: 2.1.02
From: Plain Dealing, LA

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.47
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Spiff, it seems to me like there's probably far better terrestrial investments that could be made with the (no pun intended) astronomical amount of cash needed for everything Bush proposed. Things which would generate more return on earth, and probably more in the way of knowledge than having a couple guys in space suits bumbling about on the Moon or Mars can do.


For me, it's that "probably" that renders everything else you, and most others who argue against exploration, say moot. We don't know the answer to that question and we won't until somebody goes there (wherever there may be) and finds out some of the answers. There was a time when we thought rain forests weren't good for much other than some interesting animals, neat National Geographic pictorials, and expensive wood. Now, almost no one holds that view because of what we've learned by going and seeing what is there, learning from the people who live there, examining the ecosystem, etc... I don't know that space exploration will offer the same rewards, but everything I've read and seen and heard strongly suggests it will. People who know a lot more about it than I passionately argue that any sort of a future for the human race that doesn't involve some sort of Malthusian catastrophe or similarly radical change in circumstance requires space exploration. To me, there arguments sound a lot more convincing than those who say we should just stay home and let someone else do it.

    Originally posted by spf2119
    And really, if there were anything else to be gained by this, private industry would have done it by now. I just want to know why the conservatives haven't blown a gasket at the thought of the government spending hundreds of billions of tax dollars for seemingly no reason. If Dr. Dean had proposed this you know this would be being assailed like a wolfpack on an injured animal. (and just for the record I would be with them on this one)


Actually, private industry is and has been trying for a number of years here in the USA, but has been hamstrung by a combination of governmental restrictions, requirements, and restraints and a series of threatened environmental lawsuits. Conservatives haven't blown a gasket because this is the type of project that many conservatives think is actually good use of governmental resources. (See the afterword in "Fallen Angels" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle or much of the work that Dr. Pournelle has done with Stefan Possony on space exploration and its economic underpinnings) If Dean had proposed this plan, I suspect a lot of conservatives, myself included, after they got done savaging it for the political ploy that it would have been, would have said something to the effect of "I hate to admit it, but that's a good idea."

Tim



"Verhoeven's _Starship Troopers_: Based on the back cover of the book by Robert Heinlein."
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Goetta








Since: 17.9.03
From: Holley, New York

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.76
(deleted by CRZ on 14.1.04 0917)
ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.55
Hey Stagger...Here you go...

http://www1.msfc.nasa.gov/ NEWSROOM/news/releases/ 2002/02-292.html

NASA is a great program who's benefits serve the world over a long period of time. It's like...Planning for the future. Heaven forbit huh?



"Are you kidding me? A soda with MY name on it? Now more than ever, SODAS RULE!" - Edge to Christian Smackdown Sept 7th 2000
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
I personally think there are tremendous benefits to manned space exporation- but pushing all of them aside, I think the biggest short term reason is pride.

Honestly, the first moon landing was a tremendous accomplishment for mankind. It was, and continues to be a source of pride for this nation. It served to bolster the human spirit, and make us as a race better.

I don't think the governement should be wasting money left and right on meaningless programs. Heck, I even think that NASA should be allowed to take sponsorship monies from the private sector. But I do think that the government should support NASA finantially as well. Tax dollars going to things like arts and sciences might seem wasteful on the surface, but it makes us better as a society and a culture as a result.

Landing a man on Mars would be a huge accomplishment for this nation, or even the world if we elect to solicit International help. It will be a source of pride for years to come. Personally, I would rather have my grandchildren as me where I was when a man landed on Mars, than "Where were you on 9-11?"

There are other, fringe benefits to society, but who cares about those? It is about Human Accomplishment. It is about making ourselves better than we are now. If doing this is a waste, then why climb mountains? Why strive for "World Records? Why create art?

Some things really are more important than "This money could be better spent _____." You do it because it is there.

(edited by Pool-Boy on 14.1.04 1231)


Still on the Shelf- Every Monday

"I will do whatever the Americans want. I saw what they did in Iraq, and I was afraid," -Moamer Kadhafi
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.72
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Personally, I would rather have my grandchildren as me where I was when a man landed on Mars, than "Where were you on 9-11?"


Your grandchildren will be 45 by the time there is an actual Mars mission, and that's thinking optimistically.
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.54
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    I personally think there are tremendous benefits to manned space exporation- but pushing all of them aside, I think the biggest short term reason is pride.

    Honestly, the first moon landing was a tremendous accomplishment for mankind. It was, and continues to be a source of pride for this nation. It served to bolster the human spirit, and make us as a race better.

    I don't think the governement should be wasting money left and right on meaningless programs. Heck, I even think that NASA should be allowed to take sponsorship monies from the private sector. But I do think that the government should support NASA finantially as well. Tax dollars going to things like arts and sciences might seem wasteful on the surface, but it makes us better as a society and a culture as a result.

    Landing a man on Mars would be a huge accomplishment for this nation, or even the world if we elect to solicit International help. It will be a source of pride for years to come. Personally, I would rather have my grandchildren as me where I was when a man landed on Mars, than "Where were you on 9-11?"

    There are other, fringe benefits to society, but who cares about those? It is about Human Accomplishment. It is about making ourselves better than we are now. If doing this is a waste, then why climb mountains? Why strive for "World Records? Why create art?

    Some things really are more important than "This money could be better spent _____." You do it because it is there.

    (edited by Pool-Boy on 14.1.04 1231)


Well said. I still remember staying up on a July night and watching Armstromg's first step on the moon. The witnessing of something thought impossible is hard to describe. The greatest part was that it became routine. That is a giant leap forward.

Some of these posts bother me because people so relatively young seem to have no sense of wonder and awe at both the universe we live in and our ability to accomplish amazing things. It saddens me greatly that individuals under 30 seem so stuck in the mundane. I and my generation have a lot to answer for because we have produced a society in which the ability to dream and marvel at things seems lost.



Perception is reality
Big G
Potato korv








Since: 21.8.03
From: the people who brought you Steel Magnolias....

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.75
I heard on the radio this morning that the russians have stated that they believe that they could have a man on Mars in 10 years.

Sounds like a direct knee jerk statement to George W's. I didn't think Russia (or CIS or whatever they're called this week) had the economy or infrastructure to develop a three seat shithouse, let alone a Mars landing!

Here's the link to the radio station for what its worth. I haven't heard or seen the report elsewhere.

G



Warrior Quote: "Presuming initial consensualness, where exactly do we draw the lines of our judgment pinning down the responsibility and accountability inextricably attached to each human life? "

Umm Indeed!

WOTD 16 Dec 2003
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by Big G
    I heard on the radio this morning that the russians have stated that they believe that they could have a man on Mars in 10 years.

    Sounds like a direct knee jerk statement to George W's. I didn't think Russia (or CIS or whatever they're called this week) had the economy or infrastructure to develop a three seat shithouse, let alone a Mars landing!

    Here's the link to the radio station for what its worth. I haven't heard or seen the report elsewhere.

    G
Take your pick! (news.google.com)



CRZ
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1277 days
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Big G
    I heard on the radio this morning that the russians have stated that they believe that they could have a man on Mars in 10 years.
And why not....they can rent a car at the airport...



Big G
Potato korv








Since: 21.8.03
From: the people who brought you Steel Magnolias....

Since last post: 4 days
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.75
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Big G
      I heard on the radio this morning that the russians have stated that they believe that they could have a man on Mars in 10 years.
    And why not....they can rent a car at the airport...


Droll, very droll!



Warrior Quote: "Presuming initial consensualness, where exactly do we draw the lines of our judgment pinning down the responsibility and accountability inextricably attached to each human life? "

Umm Indeed!

WOTD 16 Dec 2003
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 2 days
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
NASA: Hubble is space junk!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/articles/A26110- 2004Jan17.html


----

What pisses me off is all the money they spent getting it up there, then all the money to fix the optics and now they're just going to abandon it. I bet that this is where some of that Mars & Moon monies are coming from.




"If you need to call me, my cell is 202-456-1414"

Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
Well, it was bound to happen- Hubble is obsolete now. But it did provide so much great information I think it is a fitting time to retire it.

Honestly, I hope they don't let the think burn up- I'd really like to see them go up and retrieve that thing and have it hanging in a museum. I think the anout of data is collected, and it's place in history deserves some kind of special treatment.



Still on the Shelf- Every Monday

"I will do whatever the Americans want. I saw what they did in Iraq, and I was afraid," -Moamer Kadhafi
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Well, it was bound to happen- Hubble is obsolete now. But it did provide so much great information I think it is a fitting time to retire it.

    Honestly, I hope they don't let the think burn up- I'd really like to see them go up and retrieve that thing and have it hanging in a museum. I think the anout of data is collected, and it's place in history deserves some kind of special treatment.
Now that would be a REAL waste of money.

PS: its



CRZ
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Damn, is this the kinda stuff you guys talk about over here in the Politics forum? Heh. Interestingly, I was under the impressiion that sodomy was illegal here in New Hampshire, but according to the sodomy site, those laws were repealed decades ago.
- LeechOfTheNight, Legalize Sodomy! (2002)
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