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The W - Pro Wrestling - TNA No Surrender 9/24/06 Discussion (Page 3)
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kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 38 days
Last activity: 3 days
#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.52
I am only saying that the Orton situation was cut and dry, he was unprofessional, and was suspended. It's not a hard story to believe, and there is not much to get wrong or really exaggerate about the severity of the situation.
Saying Randy took a dump in a gym bag, and that Kurt is about to drop dead are nowhere near the same level of severity. The Angle situation has a lot more room for speculation beyond what is the truth.
I was not saying, nor am I saying now that I don't believe one situation over the other. I believe Angle has severe problems, and I believe Randy is probably a douche. But I am saying that the Angle situation is much juicier, which always leads to exaggeration and additional speculation/personal opinion when the story is passed along.
A wise man once said, "Believe some of what you see, none of what you hear". And that is something I try to remember when I read the "news" on the Internet. I always take it with a grain of salt. I never assume anything from the Observer is exactly correct about everything they report. It's just not a good idea to take anything you read on the Internet as the absolute gospel.
I admit I may be wrong about this situation. Can those of you who think they know the entire situation admit the same thing? That you may not know everything about this story just because you read it on the Internet or in the Observer?



Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
rv581
Goetta








Since: 2.12.02

Since last post: 1484 days
Last activity: 654 days
#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.36
    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Just because you clean up, doesn't mean that you don't pay a price. So, saying well...if Kurt wrestles a lighter schedule, he'll be fine might be ignoring the severity of the damage he's already done.

    (edited by flairforthegold13 on 26.9.06 0636)

Yeah, but Eddie died while brushing his teeth. That's not typically viewed as being a high-risk activity. And if Angle values his teeth enough to wear a mouthguard, I don't think you'll be able to keep him away from his tube of Crest.

I mean, if Angle is so damaged that he could keel over while flossing his incisors, it probably won't make much difference WHAT he does 'cause he won't live-out the decade anyway. Sad thing is, damage of this nature from drug abuse is almost impossible to catch without an autopsy.

I don't know what the pure-as-the-driven-snow truth is here, but if the WWE was willing to keep paying Angle while he took several months off -- and was testing him for harmful drugs & refusing to put him back in the ring until he cleaned up -- then they've done about as much as can be expected. The only thing left that they could do would be to release some sort of public statement that puts pressure on TNA to keep Angle outside of the ring until he heals... which would be an awfully smart thing for them to do from a PR perspective, as it would essentially absolve the WWE from blame if anything tragic DID happen.

Still, I don't think the "truth" is completely cut & dry here. Only about a month ago, the WWE was pushing Angle on TV and even having him compete in nontelevised house shows. That's NOT the sort of behavior that's consistent with a company that's fearful for a wrestler's immediate safety -- especially if Angle was SO far gone & these drug woes have been SO long term.

So if the truth is somewhere in the middle, what's going on? I'd imagine that Angle has some dependency issues & was taking more risks than the WWE would like; from a financial perspective, Angle's contract was exceeding his value to the company, particularly in light of all those injuries; Angle asked for a contractual release and the release was granted. TNA then offered to make him one of their company's focal points, a nice salary, and a vastly reduced schedule -- and Angle took it.

There's enough smoke for me to buy the Angle-is-not-100%-clear-headed argument -- but NOT enough to buy the Angle-is-on-the-verge-of-death-and-TNA-will-be-responsible-for-it argument.



"Who ate my sandwich???"
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
From: Gainesville, FL.

Since last post: 2516 days
Last activity: 2503 days
AIM:  
#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
I think we're all just repeating ourselves now, so I'll check out of this thread with this.

-I refuse to watch Evander Holyfield or Mike Tyson fight because they're skills, both mentally and physically have depreciated to the points where it seems to me they're health is in jeopardy. And that's not me just speculating or going by internet reports, that's from watching them and seeing them talk.
-I refuse to watch Ken Shamrock fight because physically he's shot and is putting himself in jeopardy by fighting.
-I refuse to watch Kurt Angle because he seems physically and mentally shot and, to me, is putting himself in jeopardy by fighting.

I'm reading at a lot of places that Kurt is a grown man and who are we to tell him what to do. I'll simply say that he has the right to compete and I have the right to not watch him compete.

Now, a story that may or may not relate.

The great Muhammed Ali fought Larry Holmes on Oct. 2, 1980. Coming out of retirement, many fight fans rejoiced because their man was back. The Greatest of All time was here to be the best again. I'm sure everyone was talking about those dream matches he would have. A damanged, slower, changed Ali lost by technical knockout in round eleven, when his trainer would not let him come out for the round.

It was revealed later that Ali had been examined at the Mayo Clinic. He had admitted to tingling in his hands, and slurring of his speech. The exam revealed he actually had a hole in the membrane of his brain. However, Don King withheld this report, and allowed the fight to go on.

I mean, Ali was a grown man. Who was anyone to tell him he couldn't compete?

The write-up on Wikipedia sums up his final fight the best.

"Ali would fight one more time. On December 11, 1981, he fought rising contender and future world champion Trevor Berbick, in what was billed as "The Drama in the Bahamas." Because Ali was widely viewed as a damaged fighter, few American venues expressed much interest in hosting the bout, and few fans expressed much interest in attending or watching it. Compared to the mega-fights Ali fought in widely known venues earlier in his career, the match took place in virtual obscurity, in Nassau. Although Ali performed marginally better against Berbick than he had against Holmes fourteen months earlier, he still lost a 10-round unanimous decision to Berbick, who at 27 was twelve years younger."

Wow, great champion, broken down physically, mental issues...reduced to fighting in minor league venues before a saddened public.

I'm not SURE how this relates to anything else on this thread, but I'm sure smarter people than I can make a connection.

How's Ali doing these days?


It's cool being the greatest of all time. It's true. It's damn true.
~James



kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 38 days
Last activity: 3 days
#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.52
True, if Angle is as bad off as he is made out to be here, it did not happen overnight. Why did they let him come back to ECW and house shows after 30 days if he has been in such a bad condition? What happened in the 2 weeks he was back to make the situation that much worse?



Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

Since last post: 44 days
Last activity: 44 days
AIM:  
#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.49
What happened in the 2 weeks he was back to make the situation that much worse?

From Kurt Angle's statement:

http://www.kurtanglewwe.com/

My last event was at the Westchester Arena in White Plains, New York. The show was sold out. The main event was me against RVD. I had a great match against RVD as the fans were cheering for both of us. The more we wrestled (Rob and I wrestle more of a realistic shoot style), the more I wanted to give them. Ten minutes into the match, I severely pulled my groin. Most wrestlers would have quit right on the spot. But the fans were chanting louder and louder "THIS MATCH RULES!" continuously, so I kept going. Compensating for my groin injury, I pulled my lower abdominal muscle off my pelvic bone. Now, I was in trouble, but I looked up at the fans and they were screaming louder than ever.

So Rob and I started into our finish, false finish after false finish, back and forth. But the one thing the fans noticed is that I was doing half of the match on one leg. That made it feel even more real for the fans. I can only thank God and the fans for keeping me going, as I was in so much pain. And at the end of the match, I had the opportunity to beat RVD. I set him up for the Angle Slam and Rob countered with a flying DDT. My hamstring blew out. The fans cheered and I could not move in the ring. As the agonizing pain grew greater, I could only look around. Every fan was on their feet giving me a standing ovation. And this was at a house show, not a PPV. My only regret was that I could not stand up and thank them all for it.

* * * * *

FLEA



Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

1ryderfakin.com
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 335 days
Last activity: 329 days
#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.12

    Originally posted by flairforthegold13
    Wow, great champion, broken down physically, mental issues...reduced to fighting in minor league venues before a saddened public.

    I'm not SURE how this relates to anything else on this thread


It has nothing to do with the Kurt Angle situation.

Ali's damage was done in a sport that the object is pummeling someone better than he pummels you.

Angle's damage was done in not correctly rehabbing injuries caused by participating in scripted physical exhibitions.

Not even on the same planet.



As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
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As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 480 days
Last activity: 480 days
#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.60
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    What happened in the 2 weeks he was back to make the situation that much worse?

    From Kurt Angle's statement:

    http://www.kurtanglewwe.com/

    My last event was at the Westchester Arena in White Plains, New York. The show was sold out. The main event was me against RVD. I had a great match against RVD as the fans were cheering for both of us. The more we wrestled (Rob and I wrestle more of a realistic shoot style), the more I wanted to give them. Ten minutes into the match, I severely pulled my groin. Most wrestlers would have quit right on the spot. But the fans were chanting louder and louder "THIS MATCH RULES!" continuously, so I kept going. Compensating for my groin injury, I pulled my lower abdominal muscle off my pelvic bone. Now, I was in trouble, but I looked up at the fans and they were screaming louder than ever.

    So Rob and I started into our finish, false finish after false finish, back and forth. But the one thing the fans noticed is that I was doing half of the match on one leg. That made it feel even more real for the fans. I can only thank God and the fans for keeping me going, as I was in so much pain. And at the end of the match, I had the opportunity to beat RVD. I set him up for the Angle Slam and Rob countered with a flying DDT. My hamstring blew out. The fans cheered and I could not move in the ring. As the agonizing pain grew greater, I could only look around. Every fan was on their feet giving me a standing ovation. And this was at a house show, not a PPV. My only regret was that I could not stand up and thank them all for it.

    * * * * *

    FLEA






If you saw that as a quote with no names in it wouldn't you think that would be something from Mick Foley in the 1990's?
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.62
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    How bad was Shawn Michaels? Was he ever suspended? I always thought he took himself off the road because he 'lost his smile' or other booking reasons.


If there was one specific article I would quote it, but this is more of a hodgepodge of things Meltzer has written over the last ten years.

Supposedly the pressure of being WWF Champ in '96 and trying to carry the company as they were being surpassed by WCW was really hard on Michaels. That same year, the company quietly dropped the drug policy they'd started in 1992, with the thinking that part of the reason they were losing to WCW was because they had no testing there and were now providing the larger-than-life physiques that had disappered from WWF.

So there was no more drug testing, and Michaels was under a lot of physical and mental stress. This led to a pretty messed up year for him in 1997 where he was out of control and a pain in everyone's ass (but couldn't be disciplined because they couldn't hand him to WCW). He walked out of Wrestlemania, got into a fistfight with Bret Hart in June, walked out again after that, announced to the locker room that he would never do another job for anyone, etc. The '97 Royal Rumble (where the announcers covered for his weird behavior by saying that he was flu-ridden) and his "lost my smile" interview shortly after are two examples where it was heavily insinuated that he was really pilled up.

Even after his retirement in '98 with the back injury, he was apparently still a huge problem whenever he'd be brought in for TV. Even only making sporadic appearances, he was bad enough to the point where he was kicked out of the locker room in 1999 because no one could stand to be around him. The most famous incident happened the week before Wrestlemania 17, when Shawn was brought to Raw and then Smackdown to do a return angle giving him some role at WM, but showed up "in no condition to perform" both nights, leading to the planned TV and PPV appearances being cancelled and his post-Mania storyline (an earlier planned comeback match, I believe) being dropped.

After this, WWF wanted him to go to rehab, but he refused. So they decided to stop using him and paid him to sit at home. They didn't book him again for over a year until June '02 when they brought him back to join the NWO, which led to his full-time comeback. In between then and Mania 17, he'd had his religious awakening. Some people still feel that he's hypocritical with some of the moral stands he does and doesn't take on because of his born again Christianity, but everyone apparently agrees that religious Shawn is a very, very changed man as far as his personal conduct and drug problem go.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 28.9.06 2232)
Karlos the Jackal
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: The City of Subdued Excitement

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 16 hours
#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
    After this, WWF wanted him to go to rehab, but he refused. So they decided to stop using him and paid him to sit at home. They didn't book him again for over a year[...]
Was this course of action not an option with Kurt? Or is this sort of deal for Michaels a huge exception because of Michaels' stature?

--K



Last 5 movies seen: The Notorious Bettie Page - The Proposition - Touch the Sound - Lucky Number Slevin - Behind Locked Doors
JohnHayduke
Polska kielbasa








Since: 17.10.02
From: Moab, Utah

Since last post: 2769 days
Last activity: 646 days
#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
    Originally posted by Karlos the Jackal
      Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      After this, WWF wanted him to go to rehab, but he refused. So they decided to stop using him and paid him to sit at home. They didn't book him again for over a year[...]
    Was this course of action not an option with Kurt? Or is this sort of deal for Michaels a huge exception because of Michaels' stature?

    --K


If I recall correctly, at the time Angle is (or could be again) bigger now than Michaels was when he was taken off tv. Michaels couldn't perform well in the state he was in but Angle obviously still has it or at least more than Michaels did.
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.62
Yeah, it's probably easier to follow through on "we won't use you as a guest ref or commissioner 8 weeks per year" for a non-wrestler than to stop booking one of your active performers. Plus every time they give Kurt time off, like in May with the Mark Henry injury angle, he wants to come back right away. "We'll pay you while you don't wrestle until February and then we'll talk about Wrestlemania" is effectively the same thing as sending him home and not using him, but Angle is so competitive/driven/insane/in denial that he passed that up to start working immediately.

The two big differences between spring 2001 and now are that one, Eddie Guerrero died and two, the public is way more keen about steroids and illegal drugs in athletics. They are scared to death about the negative publicity and possible outside scrutiny that would come down on them if another high profile death happens on their watch. If they send Kurt home but he continues doing the things that got him sent home and something tragic happens, he's still a part of their company. Firing him absolves them, or at least gives them some deniability, of responsibility.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 29.9.06 0003)
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That would kick SO much ass.
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