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The W - Pro Wrestling - TNA No Surrender 9/24/06 Discussion (Page 2)
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flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
I like how the new smart mark thing is spinning that Angle isn't really a drug addict, that he's not bad off, he's fine, he's just banged up. "Go TNA, woo"

I mean, "rumors, speculation." He failed a drug test, he was suspended, the WWE fired him, he admitted when he got fired he had a pain killer problem, he has a laundry list of injuries, look at his physique, he's atrophying, he's missed tons of time in the last few years due to injury. Those are facts. Not guesses, not speculation. We take it as 'fact' that Brian Gerwitz is a fucking idiot, but Angle's drug addiction is just a fucking work.

Give me a break.

When Eddy died we all said 'no more, can't happen.' Then when the WWE does something they rarely do, and shitcan someone for drugs, fans spin it like Angle really isn't that bad off.

All of a sudden, Meltz is treated like a rumor-monger. We read that Randall Orton shits in gym bags and take it as gospel, but Angle's friends fearing he's gonna die is spurrious gossip?

"Rumors, facts." Sure, why not.

Yeah, fuck it. I blame Johnny Ace. He clearly didn't like Angle, so he had him fired and blamed it on drugs.

"This is awesome, this is awesome."

I love Kurt Angle to death, but right now he's Eddy in 2002, he's Regal in 2001, he's Pillman, he's Jeff Hardy when he was messed up.

Rumors, speculation, look at the facts. Is there any evidence that Angle isn't completely broken down? You want to see him go with Joe? I don't think he can even hang with Joe.

Great news, hey...good for TNA. It'll pop ratings and put butts in the seat, but I have no desire to see a broken down wrestler fired for drugs be treated like he's Jesus Christ come to save a company. TNA did smart business in getting him, and hey...if he dies, the media will blame Vince McMahon anyway, so TNA will get off.

I'm not saying Angle can't perform without a chance of serious injury, no one knows that. I'm saying everything that's been going on with him indicates that he can't.

Take it for what you will.

Rumors? Facts.

Naivette. Wrestling is a dirty, dirty business and if I'm supposed to get up in arms over WWE exploiting Eddy, I'm gonna be up in arms over a broken down pill head getting hired weeks after being fired by a company that made him their world champion 5 times.
CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.81
I agree with flairforthegold. Problems or not, Kurt is a hot commodity. Even if you discount his Olympic accomplishments (although that would be silly), the guy was a headliner in WWE for most of the 2000's. WWE would not willingly send someone like that over to its biggest competition unless there was legitimate concern about Kurt's well-being. Read into that "they didn't want him to die in a WWE ring". Fine, but it all ends up the same.

I'm not trying to make Vince McMahon look like an angel, but obviously they reached the decision that they couldn't just "suspend" him or take him off television for a while -- they had to out and out end his contract. That speaks volumes to me about his condition, "speculation" or not.




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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.36

    I can't even get a clear cut answer if he is with his wife now or not.


That's because they are constantly separating and getting back together. It's happened at least three times since she first left him.


Here are some quotes from Meltzer written the week Angle was fired, if anyone's interested and/or doesn't want to pretend that this is all speculation and we just can't know for sure and for all we know Kurt is fine:

    Originally posted by Wrestling Observer
    Angle, 37, was fired on 8/25 over a series of issues, from fears he was destroying himself to erratic behavior. ...

    While his issues with painkillers date back to 1996 if not earlier, others have traced huge problems back to around this year's Wrestlemania. ...

    [During his 30 day suspension in July], he was said to be exactly like Brian Pillman of 1996-97, constantly calling, e-mailing, and text messaging people, from Vince to Kevin Dunn to John Laurinaitis and several of the wrestlers and others he's close with, one person saying he estimated 15 or 20 times per days, half the time the messages made no sense while the other times he was completely clear headed. ...

    When he came back, much of the ECW locker room turned on him because he became impossible. When he accidentally dropped Rob Van Dam on his head, he allegedly told an agent in the back it was Van Dam's fault, and the word got around. ...

    Angle's self-destruction in the locker room was becoming impossible to hide and several wrestlers went to the office about it. There was yet another incident with Van Dam based on something that Angle said in the ring. ...

    On 8/21 the day before the taping in Wilkes-Barre, PA, he called Laurinaitis and told him that his legs were numb and he was being wheeled through the airport, and claimed his sports massage therapist told him he had torn an abdominal muscle. That was said to be the real eye opener for Vince.



Here's Wade Keller's version:

    Originally posted by The Torch
    Angle has a badly damaged neck. He has had numerous ring injuries over his seven year career in WWE. He has taken prescription pills to deal with the pain. For years, the number of pain pills he was taking was of great concern to his fellow wrestlers who knew him well, especially those close enough to him to call him during his off days, when he was often borderline incoherent from the effects of the pills he was taking. He also had a rep for hiding the severity of his addiction from Vince McMahon at live events. ...

    Details are not confirmed, but informed sources believe that WWE may have asked Angle to check himself in for a 13-week detoxification and treatment program for his medical problems. Angle may not have been willing to take that step, and that could have created an impasse.



And Bryan Alvarez:

    Originally posted by Figure-Four Weekly
    According to WWE sources, Angle and [manager Dave] Hawk met with WWE on Friday and Angle, who just returned from a 30-day suspension for pain pill issues, was basically told he needed to get help immediately. He refused and was subsequently fired. ...

    According to sources in WWE, Angle is heavily addicted to painkillers and a walking wreck. While he has serious neck and back issues dating back to the Olympics and exasperated by his intense pro style, Im told the recent claims that he pulled his groin and tore an ab muscle are a work. It is said that he has showed up at events messed up worse than Shawn Michaels or Brian Pillman at their peaks. Others have said hes the worst anyone has ever seen.


(edited by JustinShapiro on 25.9.06 2002)
CRZ
Big Brother
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.26
    Originally posted by chill
    Here, here.
I think you mean "hear hear."

I think Justin covered everything else.

EDIT: Oh, wait, except this: http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=29762 - The W's version of "everybody crapping all over the season finale of The Office," except nobody seemed to do that after all oops

(edited by CRZ on 25.9.06 1425)


CRZ
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.52
To me, this isn't a selfish issue of me ignoring a problem to see Kurt wrestle Samoa Joe. Believe me, I would never want Kurt to wrestle for TNA, or anywhere else if he was in the shape he is rumored to be in.
But with quotes like "according to sources" and "details are not confirmed", we should just take what the Observer says as the gospel?
Should we believe everything you read in a dirt sheet (they still call them that don't they)?
My issue is not turning a blind eye to the truth just so I can see a man wrestle. I have nearly every Angle match on tape. It's what I should believe as the truth to begin with. Is Kurt in bad shape physically and mentally? I am sure he is. Does he have a problem with pain pills? Probably to some extent, if he was suspended. But is he as bad as the Internet and dirt sheets make it out to be? That is what is not known by anyone except Kurt himself, and maybe a few others in WWE. Not insider sources, or dirt sheet writers, and especially not smart fans online (including myself).



Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
rv581
Goetta








Since: 2.12.02

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.36
What JS wrote is undeniably eye-popping -- and if true, certainly paints a damning picture. But color me contrarian; this is professional wrestling, where the truth can be contorted beyond all recognition. And this is Vince McMahon, a Machiavellian businessman who's discarded, burnt, humiliated, fired, and buried his on-screen talent more than once. Ned Flanders he ain't.

If Vince was legitimately worried about Kurt Angle's well-being... then firing Angle was just about the WORST thing he could've done. By completely confiscating Kurt Angle's income, you've pretty much FORCED him to find alternative sources of revenue -- which is exactly what Angle ended up doing when he signed with TNA.

If the whole backstory JS kindly recapped is true, then wouldn't it have been a helluva lot better for ALL PARTIES if McMahon simply told Angle that he wouldn't be allowed to compete in the ring unless he completed a detox program -- while continuing to retain his sevices as a manager, interviewer, or some other capacity?



"Who ate my sandwich???"
CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.81
    Originally posted by rv581
    If the whole backstory JS kindly recapped is true, then wouldn't it have been a helluva lot better for ALL PARTIES if McMahon simply told Angle that he wouldn't be allowed to compete in the ring unless he completed a detox program -- while continuing to retain his sevices as a manager, interviewer, or some other capacity?


Who knows if they did try to do that? After all, he played the figurehead commissioner not too long ago....

Anyways, I have to think that if THREE different newsletters are reporting the same thing, chances are good that there's at least SOMETHING to them. Okay, perhaps it's not 100 percent true, but there's a decent chance that they're on the right track, "anonymous sources" or not....




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Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.28
Are they still called "dirt sheets"? Yes, by Vince.

I understand that a number of sites out there like to say "sources say" when they just start pulling stuff out of their asses for stories simply to boost website hits, but if you guys are going to trust ANY news source about anything, you're going to have to trust two names for pro-wrestling news: Meltzer and Shapiro.

Meltzer's "sources" are actually wrestlers/office workers who knows what's going on and give him the info first hand. The man has only been wrong on minor things a couple of times. If you read something in the Observer, you can bet your house that it's most likely true, or at least 99% of it is.

And Justin has an incredible (and sad?*) ability to remember ANYTHING that has ever happened, almost happened, or was talking about happening in any aspect of pro-wrestling. If he's giving you quotes about things that happened "behind the scenes", then it's been documented and at some point was collaborated by people involved and ended up somewhere as acknowledged fact.

As far as news that goes on behind the scenes, these guys deserve 100% faith because they have earned it. Meltzer's not just guessing and going by rumor. He knows what is going on because he actually has sources in every single aspect of the wrestling world.


*Just kidding Justin.

Tribal Prophet
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.62
    Originally posted by rv581
    If Vince was legitimately worried about Kurt Angle's well-being... then firing Angle was just about the WORST thing he could've done. By completely confiscating Kurt Angle's income, you've pretty much FORCED him to find alternative sources of revenue -- which is exactly what Angle ended up doing when he signed with TNA.


Supposedly Kurt was given severance pay up front the Friday that they released him. He was also being paid his downside until February but he's given that up to sign with TNA. Conceivably he could've recuperated for six months while still being paid, and WWE would've almost certainly taken him back if he'd proved that he was 'better.' Realistically I don't think from now until March would've been enough time for him to treat a serious painkiller problem and heal his body to the point where he'd be fit to start wrestling again (for starters, his neck is broken and will never be better), but by the standards of pro wrestling and Kurt Angle it would have probably been as good as you might've hoped for.


    Originally posted by kentish
    My issue is not turning a blind eye to the truth just so I can see a man wrestle. I have nearly every Angle match on tape. It's what I should believe as the truth to begin with. Is Kurt in bad shape physically and mentally? I am sure he is. Does he have a problem with pain pills? Probably to some extent, if he was suspended. But is he as bad as the Internet and dirt sheets make it out to be? That is what is not known by anyone except Kurt himself, and maybe a few others in WWE.


You're free to believe and be skeptical of what you choose to. The reason I posted three different versions was to show three reporters all talking to their own sources and ultimately saying the same thing or something very similar.

Even if you don't want to give credence to things reported in newsletters, the outright fact is still that WWE fired Kurt Angle. They didn't suspend him (for the second time in a month), book him in protected matches where he doesn't have to take bumps, give him the Undertaker part time schedule, or send him home. They fired him so that he was no longer part of their company. I think the severity of their actions would point to the severity of Kurt's condition. Joey Mercury and Chris Masters weren't fired, they were sent to rehab, and without speculating, Joey's problems must not have been minor because we're going on his fifth month in rehab. Angle is an infinitely bigger star/more valued employee/more important commodity than Masters and Mercury, and WWE basically handed him to their competition no strings attached.


    Originally posted by TriPro
    And Justin has an incredible (and sad?*) ability to remember ANYTHING that has ever happened, almost happened, or was talking about happening in any aspect of pro-wrestling.


No asterisk necessary. I could've learned medicine, computer programming, or the poems of William Blake.
Quezzy
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.79
So we're supposed to stop watching TNA because they are harming Kurt Angle, but it's ok to keep watching WWE for years after they killed Owen Hart?



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.81
    Originally posted by Quezzy
    So we're supposed to stop watching TNA because they are harming Kurt Angle, but it's ok to keep watching WWE for years after they killed Owen Hart?


Personally, I think it's fine to keep watching TNA. If anything, this is a HUGE coup for them, and it's smart business. I just hope they don't forsake Kurt Angle's health (or life) at the expense of their product.





The only book you'll ever need!!!

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Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.52
That was a joke about if they are still called dirt sheets, by the way. And I know that much of Internet news come from these types of sources. However, it just seems like much of those quotes posted by Justin were what sounded to me like personal opinions and hearsay, not necessarily facts.
I suppose this thread has gone off the rails a bit, not so much about if Kurt signing with TNA, but into a discussion of how much you can believe that you read on the Internet. And I suppose that is an argument to which there is no clear cut answer.
I guess I just have to say that I wish Kurt well, not just for our sakes, but for his own. And hopefully, the situation is not as bad as the things we have heard.



Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
Tenken347
Boudin blanc








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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.25
    Originally posted by Quezzy
    So we're supposed to stop watching TNA because they are harming Kurt Angle, but it's ok to keep watching WWE for years after they killed Owen Hart?


I don't think you can really draw a comparison between the two. Owen's death was the result of a single moment of carelessness that resulted in a fatal accident. Angle's condition is long-standing and well known, and any possible accident that results from that would be the result of deliberately ignoring the risks. A much more apt comparison would be what happened with Pillman or Eddie.
BigDaddyLoco
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.65

    During his 30 day suspension in July], he was said to be exactly like Brian Pillman of 1996-97, constantly calling, e-mailing, and text messaging people, from Vince to Kevin Dunn to John Laurinaitis and several of the wrestlers and others he's close with, one person saying he estimated 15 or 20 times per days, half the time the messages made no sense while the other times he was completely clear headed. ...



This is actually really scary that he has become so obsessed with wrestling.



    Angle's self-destruction in the locker room was becoming impossible to hide and several wrestlers went to the office about it. There was yet another incident with Van Dam based on something that Angle said in the ring. ...


Was this part of a Angle on the mic or something he said to RVD while wrestling a match?


    It is said that he has showed up at events messed up worse than Shawn Michaels or Brian Pillman at their peaks. Others have said hes the worst anyone has ever seen.


How bad was Shawn Michaels? Was he ever suspended? I always thought he took himself off the road because he 'lost his smile' or other booking reasons.

Angle is obviously has more addictions than just pills. The lifestyle, the crowd and the competition seem to be as much of a vise as the pills are. Just reading these blurbs by Shapiro makes one wonder if it is even safe to get into the ring with Angle at this point.

(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 25.9.06 1908)
chill
Landjager








Since: 18.5.02

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.70
    Originally posted by Tenken347
      Originally posted by Quezzy
      So we're supposed to stop watching TNA because they are harming Kurt Angle, but it's ok to keep watching WWE for years after they killed Owen Hart?


    I don't think you can really draw a comparison between the two. Owen's death was the result of a single moment of carelessness that resulted in a fatal accident. Angle's condition is long-standing and well known


...and what would you call letting Kurt Angle take several bumps on his already broken neck at Wrestlemania 19 versus Lesnar? TNA hasn't even done anything with Angle, so relax. Clearly, some people know a lot more about TNA's plans and Kurt Angle's situation than TNA does... Citing wrestler "reporters" doesn't carry a lot of weight outside the smark community.



// the circus // dvd shelf // top 20 //

TheBucsFan
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by chill
    Citing wrestler "reporters" doesn't carry a lot of weight outside the smark community.


That ... doesn't make any sense, for at least two reasons:

1) Who else cares besides "the smark community," whatever the hell that includes, and

2) where do you get *your* wrestling-related news, the New York Times?

(edited by TheBucsFan on 25.9.06 1955)


"I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it."

--George Carlin
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Man, next time Randy Orton fucks up I'd better hear all these "but how do we KNOW that the dirtsheet stories are true?" excuses in response.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
Karlos the Jackal
Lap cheong








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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
    Originally posted by The Vile1
    Also, the Ultimate X match was the tie-breaker. Since Styles and Daniels won at Hard Justice. After the border brawl they were 1-1. This was the rubber match.
Ah, I forgot. Still, it would be easy enough for Konnan to say, "We won on our turf, you won on yours. Let's have one more match!"

--K



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kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.52
The Orton situation is not a fair comparison. His situation is much more simple than the stories we hear about Angle. Basically, he was a jerk, and was suspended twice. Not much too it. That's not even close to saying he is a rampaging drug addict, who is about to drop dead in the ring.
And the consensus seems to be that they fired Kurt, but why is it so hard believe that they agreed to part ways, as the original story said? They didn't want him to wrestle, he wanted to, so they agreed to go their own ways.
And what is the comparison to Eddie? I know he was a drug addict, but I thought he had been clean for years. While I am sure drugs took their toll over the years, but wasn't he clean when he died?



Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
From: Gainesville, FL.

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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by kentish
    The Orton situation is not a fair comparison. His situation is much more simple than the stories we hear about Angle. Basically, he was a jerk, and was suspended twice. Not much too it. That's not even close to saying he is a rampaging drug addict, who is about to drop dead in the ring.
    And the consensus seems to be that they fired Kurt, but why is it so hard believe that they agreed to part ways, as the original story said? They didn't want him to wrestle, he wanted to, so they agreed to go their own ways.
    And what is the comparison to Eddie? I know he was a drug addict, but I thought he had been clean for years. While I am sure drugs took their toll over the years, but wasn't he clean when he died?


WWE said they parted ways initially, 30 seconds or so later Meltzer wrote "nope, he was fired." Dave, and I presume Keller, have been all over this story for MONTHS.

The Orton comparison is valid. When Meltz or Wade post negative stuff about guys that the smark community isn't in love with, it's gospel. "Yes, Orton shits in gym bags and calls divas c****, Dave said so." Here's what we know about Orton, he was suspended for 30 days and WWE.com said he was unprofessional in some aspects. I have no facts about drugs or him being a asshole. Yet, that's what we all believe. I don't think you can treat the backstage rumors as gossip in one case, but as cold, hard fact the next.
I mean, as was said above, where do you get your wrestling news? Fox News ain't covering it. It's not like Meltzer or Keller are making stuff up to get some agenda across. If Angle's friends and co-workers are saying "this guy is worse than Pillman before his death," my hunch is they're not overreacting. Wrestling filled with a lot of crazy people, and in a company with a lot of crazy dudes with wild pasts, everyone is freaking out for Angle's safety. Smoke, fire.

Oh, and Eddy's years of drug and alcohol abuse was the direct cause to his death. From Wiki:


    An autopsy revealed that Guerrero died as a result of acute heart failure, caused by undiagnosed arteriosclerotic cardiovascular disease and enlargement of the heart as a result of prior anabolic steroid abuse. Although Guerrero had not taken alcohol or illicit drugs for nearly four years, his past excesses contributed to his heart failure. At the time of his death, he had recently used narcotic painkillers.


Just because you clean up, doesn't mean that you don't pay a price. So, saying well...if Kurt wrestles a lighter schedule, he'll be fine might be ignoring the severity of the damage he's already done.

(edited by flairforthegold13 on 26.9.06 0636)
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I put all the tecnicos first at the beginning of each match recap (in other words, I put the tecnicos before the "vs." and the rudos after). But dont by any means assume that that is a standard procedure.
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