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The W - Site Bashing - Screw the Torch (link to the wiener)
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Aaron Thomas
Weisswurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Washington, D.C.

Since last post: 4413 days
Last activity: 3921 days
#1 Posted on
I could care less about them in general.



Since I refuse to add to their page counts, what NOW?



Letters to the editor?

Horsehead in the bed?

Going around following that putz like Carol Kane in TPB.

"LIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAARRRRRR! Liar, LIAR LIAR!

Aaron Thomas
Jeez.



(edited by Aaron Thomas on 23.1.02 1152)
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Ruby Trax
Summer sausage








Since: 10.12.01
From: The KZiM Tower

Since last post: 2030 days
Last activity: 1347 days
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.25
Since I refuse to add to their page counts, what NOW?

Try reading Michaelangelo's GB&U that's up now, and you might get an idea. Or do you refuse to add to [slash]'s page counts, too?




The only thing I enjoy more than doing the crossword puzzle is actually finishing it.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 12 hours
AIM:  
#3 Posted on
Basically, the paragraph in question appears at the bottom of the article.

The following is quoted from the PWTorch.com website, and is copyright to them:

"***Derek Burgan writes Smackdown Express recaps every week for PWTorch.com. He recently found out another web site has been using his ideas. He sleeps soundly with the knowledge that in the ''time honored tradition'' of the Montreal Finish, the NWO and Steve Austin Beer Truck, everything good in wrestling is stolen, rehashed and used again & again until you are completely sick of it. He can be reached at Derekburgan22@hotmail.com and welcomes any and all comments and/or suggestions"

See, when you try to accuse someone of something, you should at least GET YOUR SHIT CORRECT.

So... which of the following are true?

A) Mr. Burgan can't be bothered to a minimal amount of research (checking the slashwrestling archives) to see that Michaelangelo had the GBU going long before he started.

B) Mr. Burgan is aware that he misspoke, but has chosen to lie to his readership in order to "save face".

C) The PW Torch can't be bothered to edit their reports for veracity.

D) The Torch leaves inflammatory false comments in place in order to push hit count.

E) Other?

Is it some or all of the above? Or none? Who can know.

Here's the thought I take from this: If this is the level of research and truth that I can expect from the Torch in all of their articles, its a site that I won't be going to any longer.







I love it when a plan comes together
pieman
As young as
he feels








Since: 11.12.01
From: China, Maine

Since last post: 2 hours
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21
Well, I took Michaelangelo up on his request to send Mr. Burgan a message. He did respond saying that mine was the first to suggest (other than Michaelangelo himself) that the name concept was in use elsewhere. He said that the styles were different and basically agreed that they could co-exist.

I, of course, told him that Michaelangelo's minion would be flooding his mailbox with missives. If you believe, Mr. Burgan, mine was the first to reach him. He seemed polite but a trifle condescending, though.

I suggest sending him some emails, though.



He's Rolie Polie Olie - and in his world of curves and curls, he's the swellest kid around.
DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

Since last post: 16 hours
Last activity: 11 hours
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
I like the horse head in the bed thing.



I am the boss of you
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

Since last post: 18 hours
Last activity: 8 hours
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Y!:
#6 Posted on
He appears to be the newest registered user.....also, the newest registered lurker. ;-) C'mon man, 'fess up!



CRZ™
Visit [slash] wrestling
Aaron Thomas
Weisswurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Washington, D.C.

Since last post: 4413 days
Last activity: 3921 days
#7 Posted on
I'm sorry, I was so pissed off I made the obviously incorrect assumption that everyone posting here goes though slashwrestling.com; seeing the Man, Screw the Torch link right below Mike's link that EXPLICITLY mentions the Torch today would make one think that there's some connection between the two, even without reading the Good, Bad and the Ugly.

While I wouldn't miss GB&U Mark 2, I didn't want to help out the Torch if I could help it. I can write just as nasty a note by seeing the comments posted here as opposed to letting them MAKE MONEY OFF myself reading those lies.

In other words, probably A, now B, and I truly believe D. (see the Brother Zim post)

My personal putdown will be asking if he also intends to appropriate the Vague Reference. (My second letter to Michaelangelo will have to be to ask for that back.) I believe a letter to the Torch as well as this guy will be appropriate. While I hate plagarism, I hate lying about it in a pathetic attempt to make oneself look better even more. It's pathetic.


I apologize if I seemed to make light of the situation. I intended to call attention to this situation, not myself.
(Which I failed spectacularly at, I might add.)


Aaron Thomas
Lurking since 99, it seems...
http://slashwrestling.com/guests/athomas.html
(Must have been a very slow week at the slash...)
Derek Burgan
Longanisa








Since: 23.1.02
From: New Hampshire

Since last post: 4420 days
Last activity: 4394 days
#8 Posted on
Originally posted by CRZ
He appears to be the newest registered user.....also, the newest registered lurker. ;-) C'mon man, 'fess up!



CRZ
Visit [slash] wrestling



I actually wrote a message earlier this evening, but for some reason or another it wasn't posted. I'm more than happy to post my opinion's on the matter which you will find in the following posts...

***update***I've tried posting several times since this. But something quickly pops up that I have the last post or something and says "Can't post". When I figure out what's going on, I'll try to clear everything in the situation up. I really want to answer "Guru Zims" thoughts.

(edited by Derek Burgan on 23.1.02 1759)
rockstar
Salami








Since: 2.1.02
From: East TN

Since last post: 3576 days
Last activity: 3454 days
#9 Posted on
You can't reply to a thread when you are the last one to have posted. You can, however, edit any of your posts at any time and so you could have edited your response into that last post. Now that I have posted and cleared the way, you may thrill us with your thoughts.

(edited by rockstar on 23.1.02 1835)
The Big Kat
Kishke








Since: 11.1.02
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 469 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#10 Posted on
Michelangelo's GBU columns are fantastic. Just thought I'd mention it.



-The Big Kat
"It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care." -Peter Gibbons, Office Space
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 3 min.
Last activity: 3 min.
#11 Posted on
It took me awhile to figure out what the whole *uproar* was about. I'm not a big fan of GBU, so don't usually read it, then again I never read the reviews on the Torch either. I do know that I've seen the Good, Bad and Ugly format before in the newspaper. Now was someone writing it before I saw it...possibly, were one of these guys writing in this style before I originally saw it...I don't know. I do know that internet feuds, especially public ones, are lame.

Michaelangelo
Cotto








Since: 3.1.02

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#12 Posted on
Oddly enough, I really don't care for "Internet feuds" either. I think they are pretty worthless as well, especially when they are designed to simply draw attention to the writers or columns involved.

However, this is not about upping my hit counts, it's about integrity and principle. I was accused of stealing another writer's format when, in fact, nothing could have been further from the truth.

Now, I have certainly never claimed that I invented the term "Good, Bad, and Ugly" and it is entirely likely that prior to me appearing on the scene, somewhere someone created a format similar to the one I use now. Whether what I do is completely and totally original is not in question here.

What is in question is whether I "borrowed" this particular writer's style and adopted it as my own. I did not and I will not allow myself to be slandered in this way. I asked for a retraction that I didn't get and therein lies the problem.



Michaelangelo
The Good, Bad, and Ugly
http://slashwrestling.com/
DirkLurker
Cotechino








Since: 2.1.02
From: Syracuse, NY

Since last post: 4475 days
Last activity: 4392 days
#13 Posted on
GOOD : Michaelangelo's GBU

BAD : Burgan saying other columnists rip off his columns, when in fact 'tis not true. GB & U from Mr. Michaelangelo has been at crz.net and slash since last century for chrissakes. Burgan's has been around since, hmmm... summer?

UGLY: Bob Ryder


Love,
Dirk

The Squire
Chipolata








Since: 8.1.02
From: Farmingdale, NY

Since last post: 2988 days
Last activity: 2982 days
AIM:  
#14 Posted on
We should give Burgan a round of applause. He's moved up into the obnoxious territory previously reserved only for Scott Keith. BRAVO!



They gotta bring these back!!!:
"talk to the hand because the man don't understand." - "The Crippler" Chris Benoit
"...and that is the LAST WORD." - "The Big Nasty" Paul Wight
and of course: "Don't hate the playa...HATE THE GAME~!" - WCW World Champion Booker T
DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

Since last post: 16 hours
Last activity: 11 hours
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
I just wanna know when Mr. "OMG, I SO wanna respond to this thread once I am given the chance" will respond already!

I hate when people do that.



Miss Cleo told me you would touch my sig today
shotgun_russ
Linguica








Since: 28.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN

Since last post: 4391 days
Last activity: 4351 days
#16 Posted on
Agreed. Blaming technology (or one's inability to use it) is a nice technique for deflecting. Although I don't read Michaelangelo's column, there is NO WAY that column format could have been stolen from Burgan. Not only that, but somebody else from the Torch posted a GB&U on the NWO angle today. Is Burgan going to bitch at them too for stealing, or is GB&U now a trademarked column-writing format of the Torch?

After tiring of the barrage of billboarding on 1WeWhoreOurselves.com and the utter inaccuracies of the Torch's reporting, the only guy I trust for wrestling rumor is Meltzer. Not an advertisement, just an opinion.



=================================
Russ Ray
Managing Editor
www.shotgunreviews.com
---------------------------------
"Where the women are hot,
the men fight zombies,
and the monkeys live like kings."
=================================
Derek Burgan
Longanisa








Since: 23.1.02
From: New Hampshire

Since last post: 4420 days
Last activity: 4394 days
#17 Posted on
Originally posted by The Squire
We should give Burgan a round of applause. He's moved up into the obnoxious territory previously reserved only for Scott Keith. BRAVO!






Wow, I'd consider that high praise since the only writers I've ever devoted any time to reading on that are Kieth, Powell, Keller, Mitchell & Meltzer (although I have to say, I'll probably start reading CRZ, that Smackdown recap was amazing).


/edit: Again, fixing table tags.


(edited by Guru Zim on 28.1.02 1635)
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 80 days
Last activity: 80 days
#18 Posted on
I think you all need to get over it. Whether Burgan meant the comment to be a parody, or if he actually meant something by it, who cares? You call him "obnoxious" now, but in a week or two you will have all forgotten about this "feud" and have found someone new to whine about.

Burgan wrote to Slash, said he meant it as a joke and that he realizes neither of the two "rivals" actually came up with the concept, and has said nothing insulting to any of you. I think you can all stop losing sleep over it...
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 12 hours
AIM:  
#19 Posted on
Actually, he was quite insulting to me if you re-read it.

Maybe I'm just jaded, and I jump to the conclusion that someone is yet again trying to play the "internet fued" card to drive their popularity. Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time it had happened in the wrestling community.

I'll just chalk up his appraisal of my comments as the dumbest thing he read as a lack of knowledge of any of the antics of Shannon, Hyatte, Keith, etc. etc. ad infinitum. The tactic of flaming someone in your comments in order to drive hits is nothing new.

If he wasn't going that direction - fine. I jumped the gun. I may have gotten the chronology of the events wrong, which explains a little. I thought that the article I quoted was after the initial conversation with Michaelangelo. If it was, then it was flame baiting. If it was the original, then it wasn't. My comments were based on the fact that I thought it was the second article that mentioned it.

If I have my facts wrong, I apologize. You know, that's really what this was all about - the ability to admit publically that you may have slighted someone.

/edit: typo



I love it when a plan comes together

(edited by Guru Zim on 28.1.02 1649)
rockstar
Salami








Since: 2.1.02
From: East TN

Since last post: 3576 days
Last activity: 3454 days
#20 Posted on
I'm bored, so let's recap this thing just to clarify.

First off, Michaelangelo says that Burgan indirectly accused him and then verified the accusation during an email exchange. Burgan might be saying that he didn't actually say that, if he'd just say what he means and not wrap it up with meaningless historical perspectives and insults towards Guru Zim over GZ's comments that Burgan may have misread. I'm not entirely sure, so I'm going to try to straighten this out because I empathize with Michaelangelo over the accusation of plagiarism.

Burgan uses the tagline in his column to make what he considers a smartassed accusation that someone is stealing his GB&U style in recaps elsewhere on the net. Michaelangelo thinks Burgan might be referring to him, so Mike emails Burgan and asks to who(m?) the tagline refers. Burgan confirms Mike's theory; Mike retorts "hey, I've been using this format for years" and asks for a retraction because maybe someone that doesn't bother taking the time to email and do research read the tagline and now considers Mike a thief. Not an unreasonable request. Burgan goes silent on the issue and to defend his good name, Mike explains the whole story in his own article on Slash and urges his readers to react. (I do agree with Burgan that this was a bad move, but that's irrelevant to the topic at hand.) This stirs the figurative shit and starts this thread, which leads to Burgan being offered a chance to clear the entire thing up both on this board and on Slash.

Burgan's defense on the point of plagiarism and the accusations of it was that he was doing the same style for print wrestling newsletters since 1994 and that the accusation was not meant to be taken seriously. Ok, taken at face value, that's reasonable. No harm, no foul. But, the accusation was still lingering, because if Michaelangelo happened to notice it, even if it was merely a joke, anyone else could have noticed it and wouldn't be privy to the fact that it was untrue and/or a joke.

The reason I'm point all of that out is not to say who's right and who's wrong. The reason is because plagiarism is a serious offense among the literary/journalistic community. While Internet Wrestling Column writing isn't really considered a serious literary or journalistic venue among many people, if Mike takes any pride in his articles and writing, he would be very insulted by being unjustly accused of plagiarism. If the entire situation was truly a big misunderstanding on both parts then it shouldn't have been a problem for Burgan to use one of those boring taglines he likes to spice up to retract his statements some time between the 10th of January, when he first made the accusatory comments, and the 21st of January, when Michaelangelo publicly defended himself.

As far as his insulting Slash readers, there are some key points here: his own refusal to clarify/rectify the situation led to the comments he received and if they really were that devoid of intelligence, well, what else can be said other than "I got a lot of nasty emails from morons." (I AM NOT calling either Slash readers or the people who emailed him morons, just to clarify that.)

Now, the column does come across as insulting in ways, yet somehow confusingly insulting. A lot of the points were unrelated to anything that really went on. What exactly does the fact that he was getting comments from people using screen names have to do with the signing of the Declaration of Independence. First off, was a major historical and political event; emailing him to complain of behalf of Michaelangelo wasn't. Second, most people don't use the anonymity of screen names to make outrageous comments that the recipient might not like; most people use the anonymity of screen names because using your real name on the Internet could lead to serious complications in your real life (it probably won't but it could). Maybe the Declaration would have been written by someone known only as 2Smart4thaKing and our first president would have been referred to worldwide as EnglandSux0rs had screen names existed at the time. Nonetheless, the two events are not related and that entire part of the article came across as a sad attempt to show off his knowledge of Major American Historical Events and at the same time make everyone's opinion except for his own appear irrelevant because he's the only one with the balls to use his real name (if that *IS* your real name, Mr. Burgan).

A few last points:

A) I certainly can't be bothered to do research for a stupid tagline, especially since I read "Michaelangelo"s column after I wrote the tagline in question. I definitely would not use the slashwrestling archives as I would never even use the PWTorch archives. We are talking about a joke after all. Once you start taking yourself that seriously you might as well rename yourself "Bob Ryder".

Ok, what? The suggestion was to do the research BEFORE you write articles that accuse people of something. Not that you do it after. Apparently, you know a lot about history, but not much on comprehending things.

B) I wasn't aware that I "lied" to my readership to "save face". Guess what? I've been doing the GB&U "idea" since 1994 when I was doing reviews for print wrestling newsletters. And that still doesn't mean I was the first to use or have any sort of "right" to it. If "Michaelangelo" is getting deluged by emails from people who read my Smackdown Express at PWTorch.com, which we all know he is not, he can write them to contact me and I would be more than happy to explain the situation.

The issue isn't the deluge of emails Mike may or may not have received, it's over the perceived accusation of plagiarism. If you had retracted your comments or at least clarified it in a later article or even a tagline, the entire thing would have been avoided.

D) The fact that you think somehow that my taglines somehow push the "PWTorch hit count" shows that you are either being completely obtuse just to show what kind of jerk you can be, or mentally challenged to the point that I would have to think someone else had to type your rants for you. "Zim", you can't even imagine the amount of stupid things I had to read over the last couple of days, but your theory on "hit count" is by far and away the dumbest of them all.

As Zim said, flame wars to drive hit counts are nothing new. I don't think anyone would expect that your comments would magically bring new readers to the Torch by any means, but I myself as well as a number of other readers didn't know who you were before Mike's column, so Zim's theory is not only plausible, but it worked even if it was an unintended side-effect (i.e. you didn't intentionally start a flame war to try to get new readers but your comments did in fact do that.)

I apologize to the education systems of not only the United States, but other areas in the world, because they have had to deal with people who are obviously unable to grasp such simple concepts like "tongue in cheek"...I apologize to Wade Keller for the unintelligible letters he must have got from lunatics which, while I'm sure he ignored, still wasted his time none the less.

There is no sarcasm font on a computer, so your whether your comments are tongue in cheek, dead serious or somewhere in between isn't apparent without some sort of qualifier and referencing the "Montreal Finish" in that context isn't one because stolen ideas are irritating to everyone. In that context it is entirely impossible to tell whether or not they were serious and as a result, they were reckless accusations. If Keller did in fact receive letters on the subject that he ignored without looking into it, then it is sad that he doesn't care that he has columnists making such accusations.

And for what it's worth (nothing), it's unfortunate that you held off on your response until you had enough "proof" to discredit Michaelangelo's entire argument by calling the majority of his supporters morons and questioning his use of a screen name; but, considering that your entire defense boils down to "it was just a joke that people didn't get" it's not a surprise.

(edited by rockstar on 29.1.02 1340)
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My favorite is always the speculation that follows suit..."This may mean that Paul Heyman has been barred from Raw, and there is a growing animosity among the writing staff, unless he was just sick or not there because he didn't have to be.
- byort, Stupidest new story yet? (2002)
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