JayJayDean
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|  #1 Posted on 6.11.09 1454.49 | Instant Rating: 7.30 | I REALLY meant to do some actual work today (and I still might) but I was checking out Twitter today and this tweet from Bill Barnwell of Football Outsiders piqued my interest...
@fb_outsiders If NFL was to expand to 40 teams, where would you put the eight new franchises?
...so I started thinking about the obvious places to put teams and that turned into an hour or so of looking up the sizes of metropolitan areas and that sort of thing. And since we've managed to skip our annual "Bowls vs. Playoffs" Holy War (and kudos to us for that, I think) I thought this would produce some interesting opinions.
Here's what I've got.
- Los Angeles is obvious - the second-largest US metro area.
- In the 20s you've got some NFL cities - Pittsburgh, Cincy, Cleveland, so let's welcome Portland, Orlando, and the Sacramento Fightin' Zeds. That's four.
- San Antonio is 28th, so there's five.
Now it started getting a bit tougher. I originally had Birmingham, Las Vegas, and Toronto on my list. I think Toronto stays - natural rivals with Buffalo and the largest Canadian city. But Las Vegas makes four western 'burgs, and that's too many to make realignment work well.
Next on the USA city list is Columbus (32nd) - about the same size as Indy (33rd) and another one that would fit nicely in the AFC North. I like it and they take Las Vegas' place. Sorry, Vegas. We'll always have that one NBA All-Star Weekend and all the boxing.
Now I had to come up with one more team. Memphis is bigger than Birmingham and was the temp home for the Texans before Nashville was ready, and they are also the home of FedEx. But I'm sticking with Birmingham, probably only because I LOVED the USFL and the Stallions were a team I qas quite fond of. (Yes, I know Memphis had a USFL team, too. Sub them for Birmingham if you'd prefer.
So here's the final list: LA, Toronto, Sacramento, Portland, Orlando, Columbus, Birmingham, and San Antonio. Now, where to put these teams...
I would stick with the current format and add one team per division. With expansion teams you would want four per conference, and the AFC works itself out quite nicely, I think.
AFC EAST: New England, Buffalo, NY Jets, Miami, TORONTO
AFC NORTH: Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Baltimore, Cincinnati, COLUMBUS
AFC SOUTH: Houston, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, Tennessee, SAN ANTONIO
AFC WEST: Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego, LOS ANGELES
The NFC is a bit more difficult, because Sacramento and Portland are both far west, and Orlando and Birmingham are both southeast. I switched a couple teams around (unfortunately leaving a couple stacked divisions and a couple with two expansion clubs) but I think the geography works better.
NFC EAST: NY Giants, Dallas, Philadelphia, Washington, Atlanta (moved from NFC South)
NFC NORTH: Green Bay, Detroit, Minnesota, Chicago, St. Louis (moved from NFC West)
NFC SOUTH: Carolina, Tampa Bay, New Orleans, BIRMINGHAM, ORLANDO
NFC WEST: Seattle, Arizona, San Francisco, PORTLAND, SACRAMENTO
(EDIT: I thought it was quite obvious I wouldn't have to add the "THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BUT..."-caveat, but apparently that is not the case.)
(edited by JayJayDean on 6.11.09 1319)
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| #2 Posted on 6.11.09 1512.19 | Instant Rating: 4.32 | I'm shocked this is even a discussion when there's so much talk of a lockout in a couple of years. I don't see this expansion happening.
But if it WERE to happen, Los Angeles would definitely be in line for a team. My final eight would be: Los Angeles, Oklahoma, San Antonio, Orlando, Portland, Nebraska, Utah, and Toronto.
Vegas would never happen, as long as there's gambling for NFL games.
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| #3 Posted on 6.11.09 1513.54 | Instant Rating: 2.14 | No more teams and especially ones that are out of the country. Do you see the European or Latin America countries try to run their soccer here? No and thats how it should stay. Yes, I know about the MLS, but that as relevant as the WNBA. The NFL needs to take a look at the NHL. Too many teams and not enough fan base. If you want to move teams that is fine. Expansion in this economy is DOA. I don't care about the rest of the world watching football and really so should the NFL.
(edited by lotjx on 6.11.09 1514) | DrDirt
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| #4 Posted on 6.11.09 1519.48 | Instant Rating: 7.48 | Why would LA all of a sudden care about having an NFL Team? They just care more about other things.
And having gone to school in Columbus for two degrees, they live, bleed and die Buckeyes period. Plus while the largest city in Ohio, The metro area isn't that big and they are only 90 minutes or so from Cincy and Cleveland. And really pretty close to Indy and Pittsburgh. I would think the NFL would prefer to tap areas starving for major league sports.
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| #5 Posted on 6.11.09 1524.28 | Instant Rating: 5.00 | I've heard talk of the Jaguars playing a game or two in Orlando, but do we really need our own team here? I'm not a huge football fan so it is very possible I'm way off base, but it seems like four teams in Florida is a whole lot.
Especially in Orlando since Tampa is just a couple hours west and Jacksonville is a couple hours north. Those two teams plus the Gators fairly close by and the UCF Knights would seem to cover all the football a Central Floridian could want. | Guru Zim
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| #6 Posted on 6.11.09 1712.10 | Instant Rating: 9.22 | Mexico City would be ahead of almost all of those, except for Los Angeles.
//edit: 19 million in the Greater Mexico City area, 33.4 million in Canada, total.
(edited by Guru Zim on 6.11.09 1515)
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| #7 Posted on 6.11.09 1800.10 | Instant Rating: 9.20 | Note Jay said "IF the NFL expanded to 40 teams". He's not arguing SHOULD, or even necessarily that it makes sense to. No one's saying it's happen; explaining why it won't happen is beyond the point. Please don't misunderstand the point - we're playing this thread out like, for whatever reason, the decision is in and they're going to 40 teams. What then? (Which actually makes it perilously close to fantasy booking, shhhhh.)
I liked this guy solution:
New York, New York, New York, New Jersey, LA, LA, Chicago, Toronto
because if we're going to a Premier League like number, you have to start to do away with silly things likes territory restrictions. The top 4 divisions of english soccer have 80 teams, all overrunning each other, and couldn't exist any other way.
I'm actually strangely aware of the US-style football scene in Mexico City. They're behind London in interest in the NFL, and definitely behind them in facilities. Actually would make more sense to me to put a second and a third team in Canada before putting 1 in Europe or Mexico.
If they want to 40 teams, instead of adding to divisions (40 seems like an ugly number to schedule for), it'd make more sense to split up divisions, and conferences - start a two tiered NFL, 2 20 team league with relegation for bad teams. It'd allow the new teams to start in a situation which might not bury them (one of the 8 expansions teams might be better than the 12 worst existing ones), and smaller markets might be able to better compete.
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| #8 Posted on 6.11.09 1822.28 | Instant Rating: 3.73 | | Not only should there not be more teams, there should not be more regular season games. The talk of going 17 to 18 games is maddening. More teams or more games would dilute the pool of talent way too much, there are already enough crappy teams. | Guru Zim
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| #9 Posted on 6.11.09 1850.58 | Instant Rating: 9.22 | Add an extra game, lop off the last game of the pre-season. Season still has 16 games, plus the "Tiebreaker" game.
Tiebreaker could have interesting rules to make it fun -
* Most points scored against their opponent
* Biggest margin of victory is the winner
* Most 2 point conversions
etc.
Hey it would give me a reason to watch the last "throw-away" game and make it potentially meaningful.
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| #10 Posted on 6.11.09 1857.14 | Instant Rating: 4.05 | Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
Not only should there not be more teams, there should not be more regular season games. The talk of going 17 to 18 games is maddening. More teams or more games would dilute the pool of talent way too much, there are already enough crappy teams.
All teams play at least 20 anyway. I wish they'd do away with (or lessen the amount of) the preseason.
If they HAD to expand internationally, I hope they'd go to Mexico or Canada before England. Remember how hard it was for west coast teams to win on the east coast a couple seasons ago? Imagine them trying to overcome another five hours of time difference.
I'd feel bad for that English team doing 8-10 hour flights each way, each weekend when they have an away game. Same for their divisional foes that have to do that every year. That can't be fun.
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| #11 Posted on 6.11.09 1858.17 | Instant Rating: 1.16 | Holy shit, 8 teams? Isn't that a little excessive? Just move Jacksonville to LA if they really need a team to ignore so badly. Portland? Where the fuck is Portland going to play? Oklahoma has a football team. Orlando? Where the hell is Orlando going to play 8 NFL games a year? Isn't Jacksonville a big enough failure? Wow.
I'm all for expanding leagues and moving teams, but the NFL is fine.
If we're going to play the IF game.. wow, I don't even think I can name 8 cities that can handle a NFL team. Los Angeles by default, Sacramento and San Antonio had CFL teams, then it's all dicey. Most of the cities that dont have NFL teams don't have NFL teams for a reason. I'd love to see Portland and Milwaukee get shots, though, why not.
(edited by Psycho Penguin on 6.11.09 2001)
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| #12 Posted on 6.11.09 1955.02 | Instant Rating: 7.30 | Originally posted by thecubsfan
Note Jay said "IF the NFL expanded to 40 teams". He's not arguing SHOULD, or even necessarily that it makes sense to. No one's saying it's happen; explaining why it won't happen is beyond the point. Please don't misunderstand the point - we're playing this thread out like, for whatever reason, the decision is in and they're going to 40 teams. What then? (Which actually makes it perilously close to fantasy booking, shhhhh.)
It was worth repeating.
Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....
*snip*
Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass. -- The Guinness. to Cerebus
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| hansen9j
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|  #13 Posted on 6.11.09 2048.14 | Instant Rating: 7.48 | My immediate reaction to the Football Outsiders tweet (with very limited actual thought behind it) was Salt Lake City, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, LA, San Antonio, Hartford, and Calgary. And I was pissed that I didn't think of Vegas.
After that, JJD's tweet about assigning the teams allowed me to kill time during a long meeting. Those eight (plus some intra-conference shuffling) gave me:
NFC West:
San Fran
Seattle
Arizona
Calgary
Vancouver
NFC South:
Tampa
Carolina
New Orleans
Atlanta
Dallas
NFC East:
Philly
Giants
Washington
Montreal
Toronto
NFC North:
Green Bay
Minnesota
Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
AFC West:
San Diego
Oakland
Denver
Salt Lake City
Los Angeles
AFC South:
Houston
Jacksonville
Tennessee
San Antonio
Kansas City
AFC East:
Jets
New England
Miami
Buffalo
Hartford
AFC North:
Baltimore
Pittsburgh
Cleveland
Cincinnati
Indianapolis
If nothing else, I'm happy with how orderly it looks. I also considered swapping Arizona for Oakland, to make the two West Divisions more north and south concentrated.
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| #14 Posted on 6.11.09 2228.39 | Instant Rating: 1.14 | Originally posted by JayJayDean
Originally posted by thecubsfan
Note Jay said "IF the NFL expanded to 40 teams". He's not arguing SHOULD, or even necessarily that it makes sense to. No one's saying it's happen; explaining why it won't happen is beyond the point. Please don't misunderstand the point - we're playing this thread out like, for whatever reason, the decision is in and they're going to 40 teams. What then? (Which actually makes it perilously close to fantasy booking, shhhhh.)
It was worth repeating.
I'm allowed to post my two cents on why it's an idea thats not even worth discussing, and the fact I can't name 8 cities that can support a NFL team can't help. I tried!
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| #15 Posted on 6.11.09 2247.59 | Instant Rating: 5.38 | Ok, this is mostly based on Combined Statistical Areas rather than Metropolitan Areas, because that seems more relevant to me. CSAs are areas that are linked by commuting. I've also included Metro areas that aren't included in a CSA.
We're going to do the top CSAs and Metro Areas in the US or Canada that don't have teams. Mexico City has its own issues that would need to be dealt with.
Los Angeles (17.8 mil)
Toronto (5.1 mil)
Montreal (3.6 mil)
Orlando (2.7 mil)
Sacramento (2.4 mil)
Portland (2.2 mil)
Vancouver (2.1 mil)
San Antonio (2 mil)
Then if we fill Toronto by moving Buffalo there, and move Jacksonville to Orlando, we can also add Columbus, Ohio and Las Vegas, NV, the next two largest. If we move Oakland to Sacramento after Al Davis dies we can add Milwaukee.
We get rid of AFC/NFC, making it an East Conference and a West Conference like the NBA does. Each conference has 4 divisions of 5 teams.
Western Conference
California Division: Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, Oakland, San Diego.
Western Division: Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Arizona, Las Vegas.
Texas Division: Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Denver, Kansas City.
Midwest Division: St. Louis, Minnesota, Green Bay, Chicago, Indianapolis.
Eastern Conference
Florida Division: Miami, Tampa Bay, Orlando, New Orleans, Atlanta.
Left Over Teams Division: Baltimore, Tennessee, Carolina, Washington, Cincinnati.
Rust Belt: Toronto, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Columbus.
Northeast Division: Montreal, New England, Philadelphia, New York, New York.
The dividing line isn't perfect, because Indianapolis is more east than New Orleans is, but they fit better this way. | Jaguar
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| #16 Posted on 6.11.09 2321.35 | | I'm curious as to why you think an East/West playoffs would be better than the current AFC/NFC system? | Eddie Famous
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| #17 Posted on 6.11.09 2333.55 | Instant Rating: 5.75 |
Canada can't even hardly support it's hockey teams anymore, and the NBA certainly can't be labeled a giant success in Canada.
But, hey. Why not make the NFL more like the NHL and NBA, with a bunch of teams no one wants to see and players no one wants to know.
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| #18 Posted on 7.11.09 0034.09 | Instant Rating: 5.61 | Just add in the current eight CFL teams. Easy as pie! ;)
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| #19 Posted on 7.11.09 0104.51 | Instant Rating: 4.05 | Originally posted by Jaguar
I'm curious as to why you think an East/West playoffs would be better than the current AFC/NFC system?
I'd prefer neither and just have the eight different divisions and do a FIFA World Cup type seeding system for the playoffs. Eight division champs plus next best four teams based on record and tiebreakers make it into the playoffs.
I hate that it HAS to be an AFC/NFC showdown for the title. could you imagine an Indy/Pats showdown from a few years ago being for the title? Or two years ago having a Cowboys/Packers superbowl.
I know why the conferences were setup (because of the merger) but it seems out dated and arbitrary now (especially because of the Colts and Seahawks switching conferences). It would never happen, but a FIFA like group system would make me very happy.
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| #20 Posted on 7.11.09 0753.20 | Instant Rating: 7.48 | What seems to happen to almost all businesses is that no matter how well things are going, they over reach and over estimate sales. The NFL is no different. I think that the Commish is smart enough to realize you can over do it.
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