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The W - Print - Amazing Spider-Man #545 - The Parkers' Marriage Ends (spoilers)
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It's False
Scrapple








Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.83
This issue will be remembered for these three words: Deus Ex Mephisto.

After all the hype, Joe Quesada gets his ultimate wish and splits up Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson once and for all. But the method in which it's done is so much cheaper than if they had just done a straight-up divorce. The dirty details?

-This issue picks up with the Parkers confronted by Mephisto, the evil underworld presence (last seen by the masses in the "Ghost Rider" film). Mephisto offers Peter a choice: He can save Aunt May's life, but in exchange, his marriage to Mary Jane gets completely erased from history. Why is Mephisto offering this? Because apparently, he's a douche and he can, that's why.
-Mary Jane points out what all of us are thinking: Aunt May's really, really OLD and she's lived a good life anyway. Peter responds that since she was killed on his watch, he wouldn't be able to go on as Spider-Man with that burden on his shoulders. This is such a poor excuse for an excuse, because I can't help but remember that he managed to carry on after Gwen Stacy and yet if Aunt May dies, he'd be so racked by guilt that he wouldn't be able to carry on? Ugh.
-Mary Jane gets Mephisto to sweeten the deal. If Peter accepts his offer, the unmasking will get erased from the record books also. On top of that, the only one who will remember the Parkers' marriage would be Mary Jane. Peter decides that's just fine and takes the offer.
-Of course, just to be a jerk, Mephisto shows the Parkers their daughter (last seen being taken away during the abysmal Clone Saga of the 90's) and points out that Peter's acceptance of the offer essentially erases her from existence.
-Post-offer, there's a party for all. Aunt May's alive and well and Harry Osborn (!) is back from a rehab stint. Everyone toasts to a Brand New Day.

I take back everything I said about Green Arrow/Black Canary and the events surrounding their wedding. The argument I used then about screwing over all of the fans that followed their relationship applies tenfold to Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson. Next to Clark Kent and Lois Lane, they were the primary couple in all of comics. People followed their relationship for many years. I was vaguely intrigued about the concept of a divorce and my interest was piqued after Joe Quesada went on record and said his greatest wish was to undo their marriage. I thought the road to a divorce could have been complex and interesting. A story that rips apart a marriage that's endured for decades was bound to be interesting.

Instead, they toss in Mephisto and erase everything with a simple wave of the hand. And on top of that, they also erase the Spider-Man unmasking from Civil War. With a simple wave of the hand, the one redeeming thing about Civil War is erased from history with the greatest of ease. This is all without even mentioning that Mephisto has barely even been a blip on the radar in Spider-Man titles. For him to just suddenly pop up makes zero sense.

I aspire to write great things someday and it upsets me to see such lazy storytelling. What could have been a great story instead becomes another example of wasted potential. Thumbs WAY down!

(edited by It's False on 29.12.07 0030)



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Cerebus
Scrapple








Since: 17.11.02

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
It pains me to say this, but I'm ok with this.

Sure, the Mary Jane/Peter marriage is one of the only long standing relationship in comics that had progressedinto something... but looking back, there have been some really fucking shitty storylines since the point in time. If this helps erase the Clone Saga, Kraven's son, Carnage, The Other, Morlun, Identity Crisis, The Gathering of Five... I have no reason to complain.

it still sucks, but what are you gonna do, you know?





Forget it Josh... it's Cerebustown.
odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.81
    Originally posted by Cerebus
    It pains me to say this, but I'm ok with this.

    Sure, the Mary Jane/Peter marriage is one of the only long standing relationship in comics that had progressedinto something... but looking back, there have been some really fucking shitty storylines since the point in time. If this helps erase the Clone Saga, Kraven's son, Carnage, The Other, Morlun, Identity Crisis, The Gathering of Five... I have no reason to complain.

    it still sucks, but what are you gonna do, you know?




you (the royal you) could stop buying the books if you don't like the stories.

One of the reasons the Big Two can "get away" with stuff is that people continue to buy the books.

Inertia buying is one of the worst things about the comic book business (and I admit to occasionally being guilty of it myself).



Mark Coale
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Tenken347
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Since: 27.2.03
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.03
I think my favorite thing about this is that it (Mephisto) was suggested as a resolution to the Clone Saga all those years ago, but was rejected at the time because it was stupid and it didn't make any sense. Of course, I think the whole thing is a bundle of crap anyways, seeing as how Spider-Man's been married since I was seven. The thing that really confuses me about this, though, is that if Spider-Man's continuity is sufficiently changed that Harry Osborn is alive, how does this affect the rest of the Marvel Universe? I mean, Spidey know and has interacted with just about everyone. Shouldn't this have wider ramifications? I was thinking about picking up Brand New Day because I think Slott writes a pretty good Spider-Man, but I'm pretty much soured on the whole concept now. They can't undo this fast enough for me.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.09
I'm one of those who actually did give up ASM due to dissatisfaction with the storylines (specifically the Clone Saga). Frankly, that one looks like a stroll in the park compared to this nonsense.

Tenken raises a good point about how vast this 'restart' of Spidey's history is. How much history is going to be erased/revamped? How old is Peter now? If Harry is alive, this puts the reboot to Spectacular #200 (one of all-time great Spidey stories, btw) at the very latest, which if my memory serves, is just before the story with Peter's fake parents (which more or less introduced the clone storyline). But what about everything else in that time? Does this mean Spidey wasn't an Avenger? Or that he wasn't involved at all in Civil War? It's one thing to remove a character from Marvel history who wasn't really there, i.e. Sentry, but quite another to do the same to the signature character of the company.
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.55
I was on again, off again for Spider-Man the last few years, but gave up completely when he unmasked. It may have led to good stories, but it wasn't a direction I cared about following. And I have not, and probably will not read OMD. I do, however, intend to try Amazing now, mostly due o the involvement of Dan Slott. So I guess I don't really care how they turn back the clock, because I have wanted them to do so for years.

As far as Pete's identity now being a secret again affects the rest of the Marvel universe, it seems simple to me, they just don't know anymore, and it is never mentioned again. Harry being back I could do without, but oh well...

I think they are at least trying to admit that they have made some bad choices with the character over the last 20 years, and are doing what they can to make things right. They didn't want a divorce, or making Pete a widower, they wanted the marriage to never exist in the first place. If that was their intent, I don't know many other ways to do it.






"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
DrewDewce
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Derby City

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Y!:
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
The funny thing is this is very similar to what Howard Mackie and John Byrne had suggested doing, only using the Shaper of Worlds as the "change agent." Because Byrne was involved, this was viewed by marvel editorial (undercase intended) as a hackneyed solution and further "proof" that the biz had passed Byrne by. Of course, with that solution, marvel's greatest hero would not have made a deal with the devil, which is VERY "heroic" after all.

I've been a Spider-Man fan virtually my whole life which dates back to far pre-marriage, but the "funny" thing is that nearly all of my Spider-Man collecting/reading experience was with a married Peter Parker (other than going back and collecting back issues), so I had no problem with the marriage at all. I gave up on ASM shortly after Aunt May's death around ASM 400 and just as I typed this the thought came to me that with what's going on in the marvel universe at the moment, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that May really *IS* dead and that the "May" who was shot turns out to be a Skrull (I forget how she was brought back at the moment). Of course, this all depends on how this "reboot/reset" has affected stories. That would make Pete and MJ's sacrifice fit with how those deals with the devil usually work out in fiction.

But I digress . . . I had come back to ASM and left periodically over the past 10 years with the biggest break being after jms' "911 Issue" where Magneto, a terrorist himself who wishes the human stain removed from his world, grieved over the loss of HUMAN life from a terrorist act right up until the leadup to Peter's unmasking in Civil War. I will say that I'm interested in where the story is going and will stick around for "Brand New Day" to see how things play out and for the Phil Jiminez art (on his arcs of course), and hope that somehow Pete and MJ are "redeemed" and that they find a way to beat Mephisto and gain their respect as characters back since as previously stated, marvel's greatest hero should never make a deal with the devil, no matter the cost. Maybe MJ is a Skrull and he was at least duped from both sides.

Ultimately, I'm just glad jms is gone, so we're at least heading in a new direction. Whether that is the right or even a good direction remains to be seen. It will also be interesting to see if they can keep the book on it's (sort of) weekly schedule as they go forward.

EDIT: I got so wrapped up in "free form thinking" as I was typing up my missive, I forgot some of my original point about joe quesada and jms is that they *KNEW* this is where they were going all along with Spider-Man because jq has been laying the groundwork with his interviews going back years, so all of the "radical" changes they've done over the past couple of years Iron Spidey/"The Other"/organic webshooters/unmasking/etc. were able to be done because they knew that they would be hitting the reset button at a specific point (unless of course, those changes were embraced and cause sales to spike to previously unseen levels I'm sure). I hope the new direction works and is seen as a great Spider-Man era, but with current marvel editiorial, I seriously doubt that it will ultimately be anything I look back fondly upon.


(edited by DrewDewce on 2.1.08 0546)


It is a good rule in life never to apologize. The right sort of people do not want apologies, and the wrong sort take a mean advantage of them.
P. G. Wodehouse (1881 - 1975), The Man Upstairs (1914)
ironcladlou
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Quincy, MA

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#8 Posted on
Oh man, did I ever hate this storyline. It was very, very clear that JMS was phoning it in, and who could blame him? Turns out, he didn't think much of the story either. I'll go out on a limb here and say that JMS' ASM run was the best thing to happen to comics in the past decade, and wiping it off the chalkboard is going to go down as the second-worst. (Don't forget, Youngblood is coming back.)

(edited by ironcladlou on 2.1.08 1257)
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

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#9 Posted on
    Originally posted by ironcladlou
    Oh man, did I ever hate this storyline. It was very, very clear that JMS was phoning it in, and who could blame him? Turns out, he didn't think much of the story either. I'll go out on a limb here and say that JMS' ASM run was the best thing to happen to comics in the past decade, and wiping it off the chalkboard is going to go down as the second-worst. (Don't forget, Youngblood is coming back.)

    (edited by ironcladlou on 2.1.08 1257)


You have every right to think that way about JMS's run, but I think you may be in the minority. His run on the book has turned off many older and newer fans alike, for many of the reasons mentioned in the post by DrewDewce. The fact that they basically did a retcon of nearly every major change he made speaks volumes, so there is no surprise he has sour grapes.

(edited by kentish on 3.1.08 2259)



"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
Jericholic53
Boerewors








Since: 18.3.03
From: Honolulu, HI

Since last post: 318 days
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#10 Posted on
    Originally posted by kentish
      Originally posted by ironcladlou
      Oh man, did I ever hate this storyline. It was very, very clear that JMS was phoning it in, and who could blame him? Turns out, he didn't think much of the story either. I'll go out on a limb here and say that JMS' ASM run was the best thing to happen to comics in the past decade, and wiping it off the chalkboard is going to go down as the second-worst. (Don't forget, Youngblood is coming back.)

      (edited by ironcladlou on 2.1.08 1257)


    You have every right to think that way about JMS's run, but I think you may be in the majority. His run on the book has turned off many older and newer fans alike, for many of the reasons mentioned in the post by DrewDewce. The fact that they basically did a retcon of nearly every major change he made speaks volumes, so there is no surprise he has sour grapes.


The only good story arcs to come out of JMS' run were re-uniting MJ and Peter, and the big reveal where Aunt May discovers Peter is Spider-Man. The mythical spider stuff, organic webshooters, extra legs, and Gwen/Osborn twin stuff is garbage. I was on board for most of it because of JR Jr.'s artwork, but after he left the book, so did I. This OMD stuff is garbage, it retcons not only JMS' work but also other huge parts of Spidey's past. It's sad that great artists like Lacrocca and McNiven have to be wasted trying to save the post-OMD fallout.

THAT BEING SAID, it looks like JMS has alleviated some of the blame based on an email to newsarama: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756 Either way they really f*cked themselves with this one.



It says so right here in the wcw handbook!
ironcladlou
Potato korv








Since: 2.1.02
From: Quincy, MA

Since last post: 2265 days
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#11 Posted on
Whatever you think about JMS' run, he made ASM interesting again. Marvel completely pissed away the book with the Clone bullshit, and, if nothing else, Joe brought those readers back. And now Marvel's doing it again....send in the clones.
SchippeWreck
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Since: 26.3.03
From: Glendale, CA

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#12 Posted on
    Originally posted by Jericholic53
      Originally posted by kentish
        Originally posted by ironcladlou
        Oh man, did I ever hate this storyline. It was very, very clear that JMS was phoning it in, and who could blame him? Turns out, he didn't think much of the story either. I'll go out on a limb here and say that JMS' ASM run was the best thing to happen to comics in the past decade, and wiping it off the chalkboard is going to go down as the second-worst. (Don't forget, Youngblood is coming back.)

        (edited by ironcladlou on 2.1.08 1257)


      You have every right to think that way about JMS's run, but I think you may be in the majority. His run on the book has turned off many older and newer fans alike, for many of the reasons mentioned in the post by DrewDewce. The fact that they basically did a retcon of nearly every major change he made speaks volumes, so there is no surprise he has sour grapes.


    The only good story arcs to come out of JMS' run were re-uniting MJ and Peter, and the big reveal where Aunt May discovers Peter is Spider-Man. The mythical spider stuff, organic webshooters, extra legs, and Gwen/Osborn twin stuff is garbage. I was on board for most of it because of JR Jr.'s artwork, but after he left the book, so did I. This OMD stuff is garbage, it retcons not only JMS' work but also other huge parts of Spidey's past. It's sad that great artists like Lacrocca and McNiven have to be wasted trying to save the post-OMD fallout.

    THAT BEING SAID, it looks like JMS has alleviated some of the blame based on an email to newsarama: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756 Either way they really f*cked themselves with this one.

The organic webshooters weren't JMS. Peter got those in Spectacular Spider-Man during Disassembled. And extra legs? Huh?

I went back recently and read all of JMS's run on my Spider-Man DVD archive and I loved just about every minute. He took some ballsy chances with the character, but at least he tried to make it mesh with the history. This new retcon is the equivalent of yelling "Earthquake!" and throwing the board when you're losing at checkers.

In other words...





Pera o Bayong?
Jericholic53
Boerewors








Since: 18.3.03
From: Honolulu, HI

Since last post: 318 days
Last activity: 1 day
#13 Posted on
    Originally posted by SchippeWreck
      Originally posted by Jericholic53

      The only good story arcs to come out of JMS' run were re-uniting MJ and Peter, and the big reveal where Aunt May discovers Peter is Spider-Man. The mythical spider stuff, organic webshooters, extra legs, and Gwen/Osborn twin stuff is garbage. I was on board for most of it because of JR Jr.'s artwork, but after he left the book, so did I. This OMD stuff is garbage, it retcons not only JMS' work but also other huge parts of Spidey's past. It's sad that great artists like Lacrocca and McNiven have to be wasted trying to save the post-OMD fallout.

      THAT BEING SAID, it looks like JMS has alleviated some of the blame based on an email to newsarama: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756 Either way they really f*cked themselves with this one.

    The organic webshooters weren't JMS. Peter got those in Spectacular Spider-Man during Disassembled. And extra legs? Huh?

    I went back recently and read all of JMS's run on my Spider-Man DVD archive and I loved just about every minute. He took some ballsy chances with the character, but at least he tried to make it mesh with the history. This new retcon is the equivalent of yelling "Earthquake!" and throwing the board when you're losing at checkers.

    In other words...




"Extra legs" = those claw things coming out of Spidey's back post-"The Other". (Now that I think about it though, the Iron Spider costume may not be JMS' fault.) Also, the night vision, talking to spiders, and forearm spikes were powerups that seemed totally unnecessary. (These are all via "The Other" storyline which I attribute to being JMS' brainchild.) I realize the organic web shooters were in Spectacular when Paul Jenkins(?) was writing, but I remember reading somewhere (maybe newsarama's "Cup O' Joe"?) that JMS and Quesada were pushing hard for that. My biggest beef though, is all of the "mystical" stuff that seeped into ASM with Ezekiel and such. Yes it's an interesting take on it, but the whole thing felt more appropriate for something mythical like Thor. With all the complaining about needing to get Spidey "back to his roots" (the whole point of OMD) those arcs were the furthest thing from it. Then there's the whole Gwen thing.

I guess my biggest complaint is that JMS wasn't content to tell good Spider-Man stories (which he did with the MJ+PP reunion, May reveal, etc), he had to instead try and re-work/re-interpret/remake/redo so much of what made Spider-Man, Spider-Man, that it became (to me) hugely uninteresting and unreadable. Nonetheless YMMV though, and I respect that.

(edited by CRZ on 4.1.08 0915)


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dMp
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Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#14 Posted on
I agree that this whole thing is just stupid.
And yet..if it had to be done, "it's magic" is the only way to do it.
I cannot believe for a second that they could have rewritten history by not having the marriage take place and such and not have to touch any other stories ever.
Sure, you can get away with a few of them but since Spider-man is so influential and omnipresent in the Marvel world, they would have to change -everything-.

Now at least they can claim that basically everything around him still happened, but just the little factor "PP+MJ" and the unmasking has been erased from the collective memory.

It's full of loopholes and continuity holes, but probably the only way to reset it without having to reread every story ever and rewriting that.

Plus eventually, the story where people realize something's "wrong" in this world, will be easy to write.





*sigh* Why bother?
ironcladlou
Potato korv








Since: 2.1.02
From: Quincy, MA

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#15 Posted on
The mystical stuff...I gotta say, I bought it completely. We can all recite his origin, radioactive spider bites him and he gets spider powers, but I really dug the fact that JMS was saying "Well, why did the spider give him powers instead of cancer?" Morlun was really the perfect Spider-Man villain, IMO. It's great to see Pete whomp Doc Ock and make a few good one-liners, but at the essence of the character, we love him because he's an underdog, and it's great to see him get his ass kicked for a while before he wins.
dMp
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Since: 4.1.02
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#16 Posted on
Has there actually been any confirmation that stories such as The Others simply never happened?

I haven't read the issue to be honest (not an active comic reader these days but I do keep taps on things) so I dunno what exactly was said between Peter, MJ and Mephisto.

I'd assume they happened, but never get mentioned again.




*sigh* Why bother?
SchippeWreck
Banger








Since: 26.3.03
From: Glendale, CA

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#17 Posted on
    Originally posted by dMp
    Has there actually been any confirmation that stories such as The Others simply never happened?

    I haven't read the issue to be honest (not an active comic reader these days but I do keep taps on things) so I dunno what exactly was said between Peter, MJ and Mephisto.

    I'd assume they happened, but never get mentioned again.


The way I understand the spell to work, in essence, is that everything happened, but everybody just forgot, or doesn't notice certain things.

The only hiccups with this are Harry "forgetting" he died, Aunt May "forgetting" she was shot (though her being OK was the crux of the deal, so I can forgive that), and Aunt May's house "forgetting" it was blown up.



Pera o Bayong?
ironcladlou
Potato korv








Since: 2.1.02
From: Quincy, MA

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#18 Posted on
Diesel Sweeties got in on the action, in predictably hilarious fashion.
Deputy Marshall
Liverwurst








Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

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#19 Posted on
Hey, does everyone remember when Aunt May came back from another stint with death and it was revealed that the Aunt May who died was a hired "actress"? And Spider-Man's spider-sense and loving role as a nephew-treated-like-a-son made him none the wiser?

This still comes across to me as dumber.

There's just so much of this I don't get. I mean, I understand what they did, but I don't understand why. Despite the justifications, I can't figure out WHY it was so much better to have Mephisto show up and erase the marriage and unmasking. Was this REALLY something that had to be done with a written-in continuity reboot (or "magic spell" as people are now calling it)? Again, I've read some of the justifications given here, but I just don't buy them as reasonable justifications for not just writing an interesting story involving Peter and Mary Jane growing apart and falling out of love with each other, even if it literally has already been done.

For the record, I just want to note that they did the same thing with Daredevil's "outing" - reversing it - without the aid of some mystical character striking a deal and snapping its fingers to erase it. It's do-able. Also, discovering Daredevil and Cap over the past couple months, Brubaker is now my favorite Marvel writer and the other stuff going on like OMD makes him that much better.

I also don't understand what Joe had against Pete and Mary Jane's marriage. Like, he's been vehement about this for years, and I can't understand it. You can say that ending the marriage or "erasing" it brings Spider-Man back to his roots, but for people my age, Spider-Man and Mary Jane have literally been together in the comics for our entire (reading) lives. Mary Jane and Peter Parker as a couple (at least) is such an institution that it was a focal point of the new movie franchise.

So...yeah. Perspective new readers drawn in by the franchise that might pick up the book are going to be mighty confused by Peter and Mary Jane suddenly no longer being together (EVER~!), or there's going to be the old-timers who know "Peter and Mary Jane" that're going to be disappointed. So who, exactly, is intrigued or excited by this concept?

Other than Joe, of course.

Look, it's not that I'm so protective of my memories of the Spider-Man character that I'm offended at Pete & MJ's marriage being erased. Anything but, since I was never the biggest Spider-Man fan in the world and what little interest I had was lost at the onset of the Clone Saga and never got me back. I just find it all foolish and pointless, and for the life of me, I just don't get it. And in an industry where both of the major companies just have way too much shit going on within ongoing series and in their universes as a whole, I really wish more characters written with a focus on good storytelling instead of doing whacky shit to temporarily grab people's attention.





Then again, maybe we shouldn't care, since this is just going to be another storyline resolved in a year or two's time (as dMp somewhat alluded to).



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kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by Deputy Marshall
    Then again, maybe we shouldn't care, since this is just going to be another storyline resolved in a year or two's time (as dMp somewhat alluded to).


I agree. That is why I assumed Pete made the deal with "the devil" and not God. There was even a good recent issue of Sensational SM written by Matt Fraction (maybe the annual?) where Pete encounters God, and it would have been a perfect opportunity to do this. Instead, this way, they have an out if they want to retcon OMD. However, I don't see it happening as long as JQ is still in the EiC chair, he has wanted this since he got the job.




"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
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Thanks. That looks closer to what I want. I can at least browse to see what is even offered...
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