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The W - Pro Wrestling - "This is the most illegal thing I've seen in the history of wrestling!" (Page 3)
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Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.47
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Would it pretty much nullify the show as a piece of engaging drama? Totally.



But a PPV, especially, one of the Big Four, should be a shotgun blast of entertainment. They don't have to play in one theatrical genre. If I'm plunking down $50 for a show, gimme a the full spectrum. Put the "entertainment" in WWE.

In a more snarky tone, a comedy match is no worse than the average Divas match for stretching credibility or "purity of the sport." As much as we, for instance, cheer Vickie for gesturing to heaven before her hogsplash, wrestling fans kindly shrugged off the horrid execution and subsequent pinfall.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 23 hours
Last activity: 7 hours
#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Everyone also knows DEXTER is fake. HOWEVER, this would not excuse the showrunners deciding that Michael C. Hall should work in a dance number during a murder then discuss with the corpse how well they think the scene is going.


Context is key. When I watch Dog Day Afternoon, I don't want Al Pacino or John Cazale winking at the camera or doing dance numbers. When I watch Airplane, random breaks in and interplays with the fourth wall are one of the many things that make the film very enjoyable.

If I go to a DDT or Chikara (and to be honest, I'm only familiar with these feds through YouTube), I should be willing to accept a certain slapstick-style that's not WWE or TNA. To expect "high wrestling drama" is just silly, and to suggest it "exposes the business" when the business has been exposed for quite nearly two decades doesn't make much sense, either.

And frankly, these days I enjoy YouTubing DDT or Chikara far more than I've enjoyed the three Raws I watched last year - and, 6 years ago, Raw was must-see TV for me.

(edited by Leroy on 4.2.11 1000)
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by hansen9j
      Originally posted by Whattaburger
      As for Meltzer, sorry again if I don't give too much credit to such a "respected journalist" who never gave Bobby Heenan--the guy most would agree was the top manager of his time--a "Manager of the Year" award, and cited Andre/Hogan as the "Worst Worked Match" of '87 when it certainly fulfilled at least two of his requirements (draw/money and feud). Kind of makes whatever credibility he has or extends a bit thin.
    A) The awards are voted on, not selected by Meltzer. B) Money drawing and feud have nothing to do with how well the match was worked.


Heenan did finish second to Cornette all those times. The thing about the 80s WON readership was that it was very much a home team/away team dynamic with the NWA (yay the real wrestling) and WWF (boo wrestling killers), except the home team would always shoot themselves in the foot while the away team was really successful.

The indy comedy doesn't appeal to me either. Ahaha everyone is dancing ahaha a hamburger just won the world title ahaha classic.
Llakor
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Montreal, Quebec, CANADA

Since last post: 524 days
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#44 Posted on
When I was running shows for the IWS, I always found that a good comedy match allowed you to bridge between two serious matches, allowing the crowd to relax and cool down before heating them back up again. Otherwise you risk burning out your crowd before the main event.

Of course, in the process of doing that I helped book the first Beef vs A Bear match. (Beef Wellington vs. A Bear) which lead directly to the creation of www.interspecieswrestling.com and they are a complete travesty and a betrayal of all things wrestling, despite the fact (or perhaps because) they employ me as their absolutely terrible ring announcer.

(I frequently describe ISW as "X-Rated CHIKARA which succeeds at pissing off both promoters Quack and Rotchy. It's also been described as the wrestling show for people that hate wrestling.)

But if you don't like it, don't buy it or go out of your way to see it. It has absolutely zero impact on how the general public views wrestling and the WWE's chances of furthering their monopoly on the product and what the average person believes wrestling is or should be.



"Don't Blame CANADA, Blame Yourselves!"
odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 91 days
Last activity: 58 days
#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00
    Originally posted by Llakor
    When I was running shows for the IWS, I always found that a good comedy match allowed you to bridge between two serious matches, allowing the crowd to relax and cool down before heating them back up again. Otherwise you risk burning out your crowd before the main event.

    Of course, in the process of doing that I helped book the first Beef vs A Bear match. (Beef Wellington vs. A Bear) which lead directly to the creation of www.interspecieswrestling.com and they are a complete travesty and a betrayal of all things wrestling, despite the fact (or perhaps because) they employ me as their absolutely terrible ring announcer.

    (I frequently describe ISW as "X-Rated CHIKARA which succeeds at pissing off both promoters Quack and Rotchy. It's also been described as the wrestling show for people that hate wrestling.)

    But if you don't like it, don't buy it or go out of your way to see it. It has absolutely zero impact on how the general public views wrestling and the WWE's chances of furthering their monopoly on the product and what the average person believes wrestling is or should be.


If people hate the Portal clip, imagine how they would feel about Giant Tiger or wrestling zombies.



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
Llakor
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Montreal, Quebec, CANADA

Since last post: 524 days
Last activity: 516 days
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#46 Posted on
    Originally posted by odessasteps
      Originally posted by Llakor
      When I was running shows for the IWS, I always found that a good comedy match allowed you to bridge between two serious matches, allowing the crowd to relax and cool down before heating them back up again. Otherwise you risk burning out your crowd before the main event.

      Of course, in the process of doing that I helped book the first Beef vs A Bear match. (Beef Wellington vs. A Bear) which lead directly to the creation of www.interspecieswrestling.com and they are a complete travesty and a betrayal of all things wrestling, despite the fact (or perhaps because) they employ me as their absolutely terrible ring announcer.

      (I frequently describe ISW as "X-Rated CHIKARA which succeeds at pissing off both promoters Quack and Rotchy. It's also been described as the wrestling show for people that hate wrestling.)

      But if you don't like it, don't buy it or go out of your way to see it. It has absolutely zero impact on how the general public views wrestling and the WWE's chances of furthering their monopoly on the product and what the average person believes wrestling is or should be.


    If people hate the Portal clip, imagine how they would feel about Giant Tiger or wrestling zombies.


Or Moohammad the Terrorist Cow or STEVE or Stinky the Homeless Guy

(No one could possibly HATE on El Hijo del Bamboo right?)

Oddly, the guys at ISW have always felt that CHIKARA overuses/overused Player Uno's pause gimmick.

(Uno sometimes wrestles with tights with a giant replica of the 8 bit Nintendo controller on the pants. Hilarity generally ensues.)



"Don't Blame CANADA, Blame Yourselves!"
Madame Manga
Kolbasz








Since: 16.1.02
From: Silicon Valley

Since last post: 140 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#47 Posted on
A wrestling show strikes me much more as an old-timey vaudeville variety show or a one-ring circus than a two-hour 'serious drama'. Just for one, the performers don't usually have what it takes to rivet anyone's attention to a single heavy-duty storyline for that long. (As always, there are exceptions. I like a good Iron Man match as much as anyone.)

So everything that goes on in that wrestling ring during an average show is necessarily broken up into short segments (matches, promos) and varies drastically in tone. Different performers have different strengths, and yes, you do need to give the audience a break between intense segments. This especially applies when you're watching a live show. At an indy show where there aren't long-term storylines established from TV and much of the audience may not know the wrestlers well, it's probably very difficult to sell major emotional engagement in one 15-minute match. I've only been to one indy show so far, but I remember spots from the campy six-man lucha libre tag match long after the big-man singles main event has mostly faded from memory.

Even at WWE house shows I've attended, campy wrestling is usually the highlight of the night. The wrestlers were obviously having a blast, the audience loved it, and what's more natural than comedy based on the wrestling itself? Certainly beats a lot of what I see on Raw...
DirtyMikeSeaver
Boudin rouge








Since: 19.5.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 56 days
Last activity: 29 days
#48 Posted on
    Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
    What he said.

    All that WWE stuff may be dumb, but it isn't breaking the fourth wall.

    I'm talking the kind of stuff where Russo would have Buff Bagwell come out and acknowledge that wrestling was fake, but THIS time he'd be fighting for real.

    I think the Chikara comedy stuff is fun, but it does more to hurt the indie promotion than help IMO.


How is this not breaking the 4th wall?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeiGMtzsNtw

Or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm7A09vbObM



Kevin Kelly: "Mr. Austin, would you like to comment on Wade Keller's Take that endorsing the XFL hurts your anti-authority character?"

Steve Austin: "Oh shit, he actually said that? I thought the boys in the back were ribbing me!"

Kelly: "No, he really said that. Did they tell you the part about you sitting in the stands, looking all skeptical?"

Austin: "AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah... oh man that was too much."
Scottyflamingo
Bratwurst








Since: 23.6.10
From: Auburn, AL

Since last post: 425 days
Last activity: 153 days
#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.77
    Originally posted by wannaberockstar
      Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
      I think the Chikara comedy stuff is fun, but it does more to hurt the indie promotion than help IMO.


    Just out of curiosity, how does it hurt? People are talking about it, no? Do you think people are more likely to go see a show where they see the audience having a good time and being entertained?
    (edited by wannaberockstar on 4.2.11 1138)


Because ultimately, what sells is the main event. Yeah, this clip gives CZW some attention and might sell a few extra tickets in the short term, but for a long term success they need main events that put butts in seats.

The best programs are the ones that make fans passionate. Fans have to have matches where they want to see one guy beat up another guy. We all lose ourselves in entertainment. We don't watch movies with no emotional reaction. Good wrestling is the same way.

When you do a kayfabe breaking match for laughs, you take the fans out of the emotional attachment. We are marks, and successful wrestlers should be trying to manipulate us into wanting more, not kissing our asses with smark humor.

Wrestling comes from the old carnival. You wouldn't see a carnie showing you that the milk bottles were nailed down, then laugh and give you a bear anyway since you paid your money. He'd sell it. He'd make you feel like you were close to winning. He might even put some unrigged bottles up and let you win a round. But he's not gonna let you in on it.
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

Since last post: 19 days
Last activity: 19 days
#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

Because in that one, the 4th wall is breaking Carlito.

(edited by Mr Shh on 4.2.11 1719)


You askew my mirror. I askew yours.

Behold, my plunger.
InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 8 hours
Last activity: 5 hours
#51 Posted on
    Originally posted by Scottyflamingo

    Because ultimately, what sells is the main event. Yeah, this clip gives CZW some attention and might sell a few extra tickets in the short term, but for a long term success they need main events that put butts in seats.



No, what sells is entertainment. People want to be entertained. There are very few people with an age or IQ above 12 that are there because they're emotionally invested in a show, especially in the main event.

That might hold true for WWE, who has 5+ hours of television a week to get their stories across but it's irrelevant to indy feds who do a show a month. Those guys are there because they want to entertain people and the people are there because they want to be entertained.

The one WWE event I've attended, the matchups had little to nothing to do with storylines. There was no emotional investment in the show. And the main event was Batista vs Great Khali. Nobody was emotionally invested in that match. But everyone was entertained by the show as a whole, despite it only having one decent quality match all night.
It's False
Scrapple








Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.37


I don't care what anybody says (or said back then), Ron Simmons could walk in, once-per-show for the rest of my life, say "DAMN" while wearing a "DAMN" T-Shirt and it would never, EVER get old. This needs to come back.




"Going up the stairs and going down the stairs and going up the stairs and going down the stairs! And going up the sideways stairs!"
StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 37 days
Last activity: 4 days
#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.20
For those of you who hated this, I feel sorry for you, because that clip is getting a ton of press now, including a segment during the showdown today on Around the Horn.

For the rest of us: yesssss!!

- StingArmy
SchippeWreck
Banger








Since: 26.3.03
From: Glendale, CA

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 4 hours
#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.84
    Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
    Because ultimately, what sells is the main event.

There really isn't a "main event" in the truest sense anymore. Most episodes of Raw begin without the audience knowing what the big match of the night will be (unless it's one of those occasions where the match is made the week before). Even the biggest show of the year, Wrestlemania, doesn't have one, clear main event match. Fans and wrestling reporters still spend the final hours leading up to the show guessing what match will go on last. That would have been unheard of 20 years ago.

The spectacle as a whole is what sells.



"It's magic! We don't need to explain it!"
odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 91 days
Last activity: 58 days
#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00
    Originally posted by Llakor
      Originally posted by odessasteps
        Originally posted by Llakor
        When I was running shows for the IWS, I always found that a good comedy match allowed you to bridge between two serious matches, allowing the crowd to relax and cool down before heating them back up again. Otherwise you risk burning out your crowd before the main event.

        Of course, in the process of doing that I helped book the first Beef vs A Bear match. (Beef Wellington vs. A Bear) which lead directly to the creation of www.interspecieswrestling.com and they are a complete travesty and a betrayal of all things wrestling, despite the fact (or perhaps because) they employ me as their absolutely terrible ring announcer.

        (I frequently describe ISW as "X-Rated CHIKARA which succeeds at pissing off both promoters Quack and Rotchy. It's also been described as the wrestling show for people that hate wrestling.)

        But if you don't like it, don't buy it or go out of your way to see it. It has absolutely zero impact on how the general public views wrestling and the WWE's chances of furthering their monopoly on the product and what the average person believes wrestling is or should be.


      If people hate the Portal clip, imagine how they would feel about Giant Tiger or wrestling zombies.


    Or Moohammad the Terrorist Cow or STEVE or Stinky the Homeless Guy

    (No one could possibly HATE on El Hijo del Bamboo right?)

    Oddly, the guys at ISW have always felt that CHIKARA overuses/overused Player Uno's pause gimmick.

    (Uno sometimes wrestles with tights with a giant replica of the 8 bit Nintendo controller on the pants. Hilarity generally ensues.)


I thought Uno got rid of those pants, either when he started teaming with Dos/Stup or when he lost the weight.

On a completely unrelated note to Uno, how did Flip D Berger become Moohammed's slave? was that hypnotism or just stockholm syndrome?



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by StingArmy
    For those of you who hated this, I feel sorry for you, because that clip is getting a ton of press now, including a segment during the showdown today on Around the Horn.

    For the rest of us: yesssss!!

    - StingArmy


Whoa, those arbiters of cool? This is now as huge as the time a squirrel ran on the field during a game of sports.
Llakor
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Montreal, Quebec, CANADA

Since last post: 524 days
Last activity: 516 days
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#57 Posted on
Flip D. Berger lost a "Winner Eats the Loser" match to Moohammad and was held captive by the Terrorist Cow for a while until Moohammad turned him into a rabid Vegan activist slave/lackey (and changed his name just to Flip) which led to Flip's feud with Stinky his former partner in The Lady and the Tramp.

Yeah Uno retired those pants a long time ago. To my recollection he did the Pause spot once in Montreal and the Contra code spot once in Montreal. In CHIKARA, it seemed like he was doing it every show for a while.




"Don't Blame CANADA, Blame Yourselves!"
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 442 days
Last activity: 442 days
#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.84
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by StingArmy
      For those of you who hated this, I feel sorry for you, because that clip is getting a ton of press now, including a segment during the showdown today on Around the Horn.

      For the rest of us: yesssss!!

      - StingArmy


    Whoa, those arbiters of cool? This is now as huge as the time a squirrel ran on the field during a game of sports.






If that squirrel could have only formed a faction, they'd be main eventing TNA next month.
jwrestle
Lap cheong








Since: 4.4.03
From: Nitro WV

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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.16
Do you want wrestling or entertainment?

Yes, stuff like this totally shatters the fourth wall with a bull dozer but how long has "kayfabe" been on life support or dead? Some 30 years since Vince pretty much openly admitted the winner of matches are predetermined so he could benefit from not being under state athletic board jurisdiction.

"The business" has changed. Not everyone agrees it for the better but knowing quite a few guys, who have worked there tail bone off in the indies, who can put on spectacular matches but all the "the business" wants anymore is the next gimmick.

So what it all boils down two is one simple question.

Where's the beef?





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Alessandro
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Worcester MA

Since last post: 47 days
Last activity: 3 days
#60 Posted on
    Originally posted by Leroy
      Originally posted by Amos Cochran
      Everyone also knows DEXTER is fake. HOWEVER, this would not excuse the showrunners deciding that Michael C. Hall should work in a dance number during a murder then discuss with the corpse how well they think the scene is going.


    Context is key. When I watch Dog Day Afternoon, I don't want Al Pacino or John Cazale winking at the camera or doing dance numbers. When I watch Airplane, random breaks in and interplays with the fourth wall are one of the many things that make the film very enjoyable.

    If I go to a DDT or Chikara (and to be honest, I'm only familiar with these feds through YouTube), I should be willing to accept a certain slapstick-style that's not WWE or TNA. To expect "high wrestling drama" is just silly, and to suggest it "exposes the business" when the business has been exposed for quite nearly two decades doesn't make much sense, either.

    And frankly, these days I enjoy YouTubing DDT or Chikara far more than I've enjoyed the three Raws I watched last year - and, 6 years ago, Raw was must-see TV for me.

    (edited by Leroy on 4.2.11 1000)


This is a good point ... The "art" of professional wrestling should be considered like any other entertainment medium - comic books, for example, can no longer be defined as solely "large muscular men in tights punching each other", but rather can tackle any kind of subject matter (comedy, drama, biography, etc.).

In the same manner, there are all kinds of ways for wrestling shows to "branch out" and deliver their own specific style of show (ROH for more "traditional" wrestling, Kaiju Big Battel for Japanese monster movie style craziness, etc. etc.).




Also, I don't know if this YouTube clip is from the exact match I'm thinking of, but watching those guys reminded me of the old hypnosis spot from the Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling:





"All RAW is these days is a cheap version of Saturday Night Live, so if you wanna tune in to watch the amazing star power of Al Sharpton and Nancy O'Dell, go ahead! Who's gonna host next week, Big Bird? Wow, that's must-see TV!" - John Morrison (10/16/09 Smackdown!)


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For a match containing JoJo, replicant E.V.A & Cameron, it wasn't the worst match in the history of wrestling. So it exceeded my expectations.
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