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The W - Pro Wrestling - "This is the most illegal thing I've seen in the history of wrestling!" (Page 2)
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Since: 10.10.02
From: New Hampshire

Since last post: 265 days
Last activity: 179 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Captaincuba
    Over - Under on Santino using it as part of The Cobra?

    CC


Not trying to sound cynical, but genuinely curious; did Santino lift The Cobra from somebody?
Hogan's My Dad
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Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 2 days
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#22 Posted on
    Originally posted by Whattaburger
    Watching all these videos, it makes me happy to know that none of these "wrestlers" will ever make more than $75 and a gift certificate to IHOP a month. And if they ever do, I will be so sad about the state of the industry.


Alberto Del Rio, the Royal Rumble winner and (probable) future Wrestlemania main eventer sold the cobra. Santino is now a tag-team Champion. Numerous tag-teams sell this move, which even by comparison to the People's Elbow and the Worm is fantastically fucking dumb. Also, a midget gave the F-U to Tyson Kidd. Considering that your whole attitude toward the business is anyone who's ever been in WWE > than Dave Meltzer (respected journalist), there are people doing dumb stuff like this for six figures now.








Quiet, Or Papa Spank!
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 130 days
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    Reminded me of this moment from CHIKARA, in which two wrestlers started competing in slow-motion, complete with slo-mo "THIS..... IS..... AWE..... SOME...." chants from the crowd.


That was great fun live.

Chikara, when I used to go monthly, was always good for a healthy dose of comedy. The Olsens bringing a magnifying glass to the ring to use on the Colony comes to mind as one of my favorites.



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Odessa Steps Magazine
ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
Whattaburger
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Since: 18.5.04
From: Badstreet USA

Since last post: 4 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.01
    Originally posted by SchippeWreck
    Say hi to CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, CHIKARA alumni, the next time you're at IHOP.

    On the question of "exposing the business", a comedy spot on the undercard of an indie show is far less business-exposing to me than Edge/Randy Orton/Shawn Michaels spending what feels like 20 minutes begging and pleading their opponent to get up off the mat, just so they can hit their finisher.


Yes, my whole argument--and even the specific example I cited--has been unfounded by those two exceptions. Yes, yes...well done. (Also, what does it mean to be an alum? Making a few gigs here and there, or wrestling there as your main organization?)

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say, as HMD suggested, that my attitude is, "WWE can do no wrong; Dave Meltzer sux lol!" That's not entirely accurate.

Do I think WWE is the top organization? Yes, but that doesn't mean I think they never do anything groan-worthy. But it is the top organization in the world and anyone who's there--regardless of whatever role they currently play (re: Santino, other comedy routines, short stints)--is there because they took their craft seriously and (eventually) understood the basic tenet of the business, which is about drawing money with three punches, a foot and a leg drop. (OR, since things have to be spelled-out, because they fill(ed) a specific spot.) Like some indie bands out there, maybe some wrestle purely for their own enjoyment. I'm just saying, because I've been around a locker room or two, that I think it's a bit disingenuous to be all "prozectay thezay buzsinezzesay," because you're all about the business, brah, and then go out and have that kind of match.

I know it's fashionable to think WWE has no grasp of the business anymore, but I think it'd be a safer bet to say that anyone who isn't already in that company isn't there for a valid reason. You don't become what that company has become by being oblivious to the talent and culture outside your door. Sure, you can say it's formulaic and cookie cutter but go ahead, Schippe, ask Punk*, Bryan, and anyone who, like them, probably cares about making a legit career as a pro wrestler--not playing one--where they'd want to be; it's not TNA, ROH or Japan. And even with the money and lighter schedule it wasn't even WCW, either. (No, I'm not saying everyone in TNA, ROH, Japan, etc. are playing wrestler.)

Also there's a big difference between doing a spot like the People's Elbow or The Worm and slo-mo wrestling for a few minutes and then going on about your match like normal. Sorry, I don't see the utility.

As for Meltzer, sorry again if I don't give too much credit to such a "respected journalist" who never gave Bobby Heenan--the guy most would agree was the top manager of his time--a "Manager of the Year" award, and cited Andre/Hogan as the "Worst Worked Match" of '87 when it certainly fulfilled at least two of his requirements (draw/money and feud). Kind of makes whatever credibility he has or extends a bit thin.

But that's just my opinion. Then again, maybe I've missed the point and Meltz evaluates all his categories based on the premise of, "If wrestling were real, then..."

*(Why does Punk wear that lip ring while he wrestles? Why wouldn't an opponent rip it out?)




This is all serious business.
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 4 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by Whattaburger
    As for Meltzer, sorry again if I don't give too much credit to such a "respected journalist" who never gave Bobby Heenan--the guy most would agree was the top manager of his time--a "Manager of the Year" award, and cited Andre/Hogan as the "Worst Worked Match" of '87 when it certainly fulfilled at least two of his requirements (draw/money and feud). Kind of makes whatever credibility he has or extends a bit thin.
A) The awards are voted on, not selected by Meltzer. B) Money drawing and feud have nothing to do with how well the match was worked.



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Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

Since last post: 374 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.62
It's entertainment. It's fun. It IS all about the crowd. Those crowds loved the hypnotized breakdancing and slo-mo wrestling. Thus, it worked. It's not any more complicated than that.



Lloyd: When I met Mary, I got that old fashioned romantic feeling, where I'd do anything to bone her.
Harry: That's a special feeling.
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Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73
    Originally posted by Whattaburger
    Do I think WWE is the top organization? Yes, but that doesn't mean I think they never do anything groan-worthy. But it is the top organization in the world and anyone who's there--regardless of whatever role they currently play (re: Santino, other comedy routines, short stints)--is there because they took their craft seriously and (eventually) understood the basic tenet of the business, which is about drawing money with three punches, a foot and a leg drop. (OR, since things have to be spelled-out, because they fill(ed) a specific spot.)


At the end of the day, in this era Vince McMahon's idea of what a star looks like is really the only indicator of what spots need to exist. There's not much else to it. Many backstage have advocated for Morrison who is outperforming everyone lately, and he's going absolutely nowhere because Vince doesn't believe in him. And hey, he's a crappy talker, granted. But that doesn't mean he can't draw money, and some question whether WWE saying "not top guy material" and then undercutting their own guys is questionable as far the value it has.


    Originally posted by Whattaburger
    Also there's a big difference between doing a spot like the People's Elbow or The Worm and slo-mo wrestling for a few minutes and then going on about your match like normal. Sorry, I don't see the utility.


Well there is no utility. I'm trying to say that moves like that are the hole in the boat that eventually leads to slow-mo wrestling. They're not the same thing, but they're in the same neighborhood.


    Whattaburger]As for Meltzer, sorry again if I don't give too much credit to such a "respected journalist" who never gave Bobby Heenan--the guy most would agree was the top manager of his time--a "Manager of the Year" award, and cited Andre/Hogan as the "Worst Worked Match" of '87 when it certainly fulfilled at least two of his requirements (draw/money and feud). Kind of makes whatever credibility he has or extends a bit thin.

I think that Roger Ebert has been way off a few times on films. I don't always agree with him, but I do think he has credibility. I think Meltzer's process, his turning out to be right most of the time are indications that yes, he is credible. I also think while the role he plays in the overall operation of the business isn't as big as the role say, a WWE main eventer plays, he is important. It is important to have someone who checks facts, reports lies, and occasionally, as he did in 1991, take a strong stand against the utterly tasteless. I think there's value in that and I think that's the perfect role for a journalist to play. So that the journalist isn't a bigger deal that the subject matter he covers is entirely irrelevant and that's the position you always fall back to. You did so as recently as the Royal Rumble thread. That's what I'm disputing. And for what it's worth, I agree with you on some things.






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Scottyflamingo
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Since: 23.6.10
From: Auburn, AL

Since last post: 464 days
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.77
The People's Elbow would be like Hurley doing something goofy on Lost. It is silly, but fits the character.

The Hypnosis or Slow Mo stuff would be like if JJ Abrams had been in the hatch writing the scripts.
ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

Since last post: 129 days
Last activity: 2 days
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.69
Is slo-mo wrestling or hypnosis any more ridiculous than WWE's continual so-called "comedy" with Hornswoggle, or what they used to do with The Boogeyman (or, going back farther, Papa Shango or Doink the Clown)?

I think slo-mo wrestling during a match in an indy fed that's explicitly comedy-based is far less infuriating than Hornswoggle hitting the Attitude Adjustment on former tag-team champion Tyson Kidd, or winning the Cruiserweight Title, which was soon thereafter vacated and abandoned. Or beating Chavo Guerrero 75 million times in a row.



"I'm pleased that the imminent destruction of all organic life has improved your career opportunities."
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CruelAngel777
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Since: 7.4.02

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#30 Posted on
Is the Hypnosis spot and less exposing of wrestling than say, Kane being super kicked into a flaming dumpster then appearing on next week's Raw with a few scratches? Or Paul Bearer being buried alive in cement on a PPV only to return on TV years later only to be killed again by Edge? Or Edge being chokeslammed through the ring by UnderTaker after an HIAC match and then set on fire in the hole?

The difference between the CZW hypnosis spot and the other segments and spots I mentioned is that CZW has a strong fan base of fans who "know" the inside and outs of the business. Whereas the other stuff is from the WWE. Bigger fanbase and more casual fans who would probably demand their money back after seeing something so obviously outrageous and improbable.

It's funny and won't affect "the business" in any form.
ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

Since last post: 129 days
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.69
    Originally posted by CruelAngel777
    Is the Hypnosis spot and less exposing of wrestling than say, Kane being super kicked into a flaming dumpster then appearing on next week's Raw with a few scratches? Or Paul Bearer being buried alive in cement on a PPV only to return on TV years later only to be killed again by Edge? Or Edge being chokeslammed through the ring by UnderTaker after an HIAC match and then set on fire in the hole?


Or Steve Austin using a forklift to lift a car, containing Triple H, 20 or 30 feet in the air and then dropping it upside-down, and then having Triple H appear with a few scratches a couple weeks later?

Exactly.



"I'm pleased that the imminent destruction of all organic life has improved your career opportunities."
--Tali'Zorah nar Rayya, Mass Effect

Fan of the Indianapolis Colts (Super Bowl XLI Champions), Indiana Pacers and Washington Nationals

Certified RFMC Member-- Ask To See My Credentials!

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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 130 days
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00

I wonder how Mike Quackenbush feels about two of his home grown workers getting all this attention for CZW and not Chikara?



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Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 16 days
Last activity: 16 days
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
      Originally posted by CruelAngel777
      Is the Hypnosis spot and less exposing of wrestling than say, Kane being super kicked into a flaming dumpster then appearing on next week's Raw with a few scratches? Or Paul Bearer being buried alive in cement on a PPV only to return on TV years later only to be killed again by Edge? Or Edge being chokeslammed through the ring by UnderTaker after an HIAC match and then set on fire in the hole?


    Or Steve Austin using a forklift to lift a car, containing Triple H, 20 or 30 feet in the air and then dropping it upside-down, and then having Triple H appear with a few scratches a couple weeks later?

    Exactly.


Well, yes. No matter how implausible, shit like that COULD happen. HHH COULD have escaped with minor injuries. Paul Bearer COULD have been removed from that cement as soon as the show went off air (and in fact I think WWE put an article to that effect up after the show). Two guys supposedly competing against each can't simply start wrestling in slo-mo without the entire shebang being acknowledged as the playacting it is. It defies the accepted reality of pro wrestling.

Not that I agree with Whattaburger too strongly - I don't think this is killing prowrestling/disrespectful/smelly and uncouth, I just think it's goofy and betrays a lack of ambition on the part of these feds. They're one big inside joke, and you don't get people interested by excluding those who don't get what's funny about a distorted "this is awesome" chant.

Side note: I don't get the complaint about Hornswaggle hitting the AA on Kidd. Kidd was knocked silly by Cena's AA, so Hornswaggle could pretty much do whatever he wanted. And as evidenced by him actually, y'know, doing the move, it's entirely possible for a guy his size to pull it off. It's irritating, but not illogical.
Scottyflamingo
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Since: 23.6.10
From: Auburn, AL

Since last post: 464 days
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.77
What he said.

All that WWE stuff may be dumb, but it isn't breaking the fourth wall.

I'm talking the kind of stuff where Russo would have Buff Bagwell come out and acknowledge that wrestling was fake, but THIS time he'd be fighting for real.

I think the Chikara comedy stuff is fun, but it does more to hurt the indie promotion than help IMO.
InVerse
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Since: 26.8.02

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#35 Posted on
Did you guys know that back in 1994, Vince McMahon publicly testified before the United States Congress that professional wrestling was fake? I'm pretty sure that takes the cake for exposing the business.

Bitching about comedy spots in comedy feds exposing the business is fucktarded. Nobody is going to see that video and then decide to avoid going to indie events because of it. On the other hand, lots of non-wrestling fans have seen that video and found it far more entertaining than anything that has ever been put on mainstream wrestling television and might consider going to a show at some point as a result. (It reminds me of the time my father took my half-sister to a show when her mom was too sick to go. The only thing he enjoyed the entire night was Delirious. He was still talking about him weeks later.)

What's more likely to hurt the business is if a casual/non-fan were to stumble across this thread. They'd see the fat basement dwelling virgin stereotype being reinforced ten-fold and be mortified at the thought of being in a crowd predominantly comprised of such people.
Amos Cochran
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Since: 28.8.09

Since last post: 16 days
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.89
Holy God, missing the point massively. Everyone knows wrestling is fake, of course.

Everyone also knows DEXTER is fake. HOWEVER, this would not excuse the showrunners deciding that Michael C. Hall should work in a dance number during a murder then discuss with the corpse how well they think the scene is going. Could they do that? Sure. Would it be interesting? I guess. Would it pretty much nullify the show as a piece of engaging drama? Totally.

wannaberockstar
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Since: 7.3.02
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by Scottyflamingo
    I think the Chikara comedy stuff is fun, but it does more to hurt the indie promotion than help IMO.


Just out of curiosity, how does it hurt? People are talking about it, no? Do you think people are more likely to go see a show where they see the audience having a good time and being entertained?

I think that if the fans are having fun, who cares! At the end of the night, that's really who it's all about.

Also, on a semi-related note: I don't really know that much about the indy feds, but if that was Combat Zone Wrestling (like the ring apron said) then I'm confused, because from the various things I've read I thought that CZW was a plunder/violence thing (honestly I'm interested in seeing more indy stuff - that just confused me).

(edited by wannaberockstar on 4.2.11 1138)
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 130 days
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.00

I have no problem with liking both serious companies (Mid-South, All Japan) and not so serious companies (Chikara, Osaka Pro), much in the same way I like superhero comics and indy comics.

It seemed to me that the Chikara audience (at least a couple years ago) were kids who liked the comedy, parents of those kids who were along for the ride and the smarky 20-something guys who were in on the joke.

Presumably, wrestling fans full of the WHY SO SERIOUS attitude avoided Chikara, except the douchey segment of ROH fans who would "lower themselves" to go to a show to see someone like Danielson on the card.



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2P4E
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Since: 4.1.05
From: SE12, London, UK.

Since last post: 446 days
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#39 Posted on
    Originally posted by Amos Cochran
    Would it pretty much nullify the show as a piece of engaging drama? Totally.


I agree with you in principle, but whether it breaks the fourth wall or not, I question whether men in little pants slapping each other can really be considered on the same level of engaging drama in the first place. A more apt comparison would be a cartoon character referring to "last episode" rather than saying "last week", which happens all the time.
samoflange
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Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

Since last post: 374 days
Last activity: 366 days
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.62
    Originally posted by 2P4E
    I agree with you in principle, but whether it breaks the fourth wall or not, I question whether men in little pants slapping each other can really be considered on the same level of engaging drama in the first place. A more apt comparison would be a cartoon character referring to "last episode" rather than saying "last week", which happens all the time.


You hit the nail on the head for me right there. During the sport's most popular era there were guys wrestling as barbers, zombies, policemen, and medieval warlords. Pro wrestling is not high drama, it's a live action cartoon. Maybe some people don't like the really zany stuff, but that doesn't make it any less valid.



Lloyd: When I met Mary, I got that old fashioned romantic feeling, where I'd do anything to bone her.
Harry: That's a special feeling.
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I seem to remember hearing about something like this several years ago, when a theatre that was showing a WWF PPV ended up showing a few minutes of porn right after the show.
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