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The W - Current Events & Politics - This is simply shameful
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godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

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#1 Posted on
After the endless repetition of "Saddam holds children in prison" - guess who's doing the same thing.

I eagerly await the chorus of justifications from the righties.
Promote this thread!
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#2 Posted on
Hmmm-
Child in camp X-Ray attempts to blow up our troops with a bomb.

Child in Baghdad prison refuses to join young Ba'athist Party.

No justification is needed. Common sense explains that one.


(edited by Pool-Boy on 22.4.03 0912)




Still on the Shelf #5
The Great Thomas
Sujuk








Since: 17.6.02
From: Miami, Florida

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#3 Posted on
(deleted by The Great Thomas on 29.4.03 0646)
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1081 days
Last activity: 878 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by godking
    After the endless repetition of "Saddam holds children in prison" - guess who's doing the same thing.

    I eagerly await the chorus of justifications from the righties.


Um...don't we lock up juveniles who commit crimes?




cokeman
Chorizo








Since: 12.4.03
From: nj (back from iraq)

Since last post: 3098 days
Last activity: 2888 days
#5 Posted on
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Hmmm-
    Child in camp X-Ray attempts to blow up our troops with a bomb.

    Child in Baghdad prison refuses to join young Ba'athist Party.

    No justification is needed. Common sense explains that one.


    (edited by Pool-Boy on 22.4.03 0912)



Pool-boy takes the words out of my mouth again. (just with better spelling)

(edited by cokeman on 22.4.03 1303)


godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3717 days
Last activity: 3663 days
#6 Posted on
Child in camp X-Ray attempts to blow up our troops with a bomb.

And the Geneva Conventions specifically state that minors cannot be considered enemy combatants. Under any circumstances. Period. They're frigging kids - they're not expected to have the judgement of an adult.

The kids are attacking your troops? Well, that's just tough. No, you don't get to treat them like ordinary enemy troops. Welcome to the wonderful world of being expected to act like an enlightened nation.

Um...don't we lock up juveniles who commit crimes?

Yes. Not that this is anything to be proud of, mind you. But then again, those juveniles got legal representation and a trial, as opposed to simply being held indefinitely in a prisoner of war camp with no charges being laid or indeed any reason given beyond "it's part of the war on terror".
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#7 Posted on
I thought the Geneva Convention didnt cover those in Gitmo because they werent "technically" prisoners of war.

Either way, I dont much care. They are getting fed, are housed, are allowed to practice thier religion. Besides not being able to actively train and plot on the overthrow of my nation, they are basically better off than they were before.
godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3717 days
Last activity: 3663 days
#8 Posted on
They are getting fed, are housed, are allowed to practice thier religion. Besides not being able to actively train and plot on the overthrow of my nation, they are basically better off than they were before.

I am officially speechless. The only way this could have been more jaw-dropping and patronizing is if you had referred to them as "towelheads" or similar.
cokeman
Chorizo








Since: 12.4.03
From: nj (back from iraq)

Since last post: 3098 days
Last activity: 2888 days
#9 Posted on

    Originally posted by godking
    Child in camp X-Ray attempts to blow up our troops with a bomb.

    And the Geneva Conventions specifically state that minors cannot be considered enemy combatants. Under any circumstances. Period. They're frigging kids - they're not expected to have the judgement of an adult.

    The kids are attacking your troops? Well, that's just tough. No, you don't get to treat them like ordinary enemy troops. Welcome to the wonderful world of being expected to act like an enlightened nation.

    Um...don't we lock up juveniles who commit crimes?

    Yes. Not that this is anything to be proud of, mind you. But then again, those juveniles got legal representation and a trial, as opposed to simply being held indefinitely in a prisoner of war camp with no charges being laid or indeed any reason given beyond "it's part of the war on terror".



Ok, so your saying that if some 13 year old kid is running at you with bombs on him. You would let him come up to you and blow you up. Sorry buddy but you got issues. i wuld blow his fucking head off. I would not want you as my battle buddy in a fox hole during A war.
Im in the army i dont give a fuck im not going to die cuz some piece of papper says that i cant shoot a kid. I bet you anyone will tell you the same thing. Exept your crazy ass.



godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3717 days
Last activity: 3663 days
#10 Posted on
Ok, so your saying that if some 13 year old kid is running at you with bombs on him. You would let him come up to you and blow you up.

No, I'd probably shoot him. I'm not crazy. (Although I'd probably try for a disabling shot if it seemed possible.) But I would expect to be tried for violating international military law.

Of course, you're setting up a straw man here - the point isn't that these kids were shot in combat (although far too many were anyway), but that minors, who are legally considered via an international agreement to which the United States is a signatory, to be incapable of forming the judgement necessary to be soldiers, and thus can't be held as prisoners of war or enemy combatants.

Jesus, some shit is just wrong, okay? And just because things get tough doesn't make it right. The point of obeying the law isn't that you quit doing it when it gets hard!
Bizzle Izzle
Bockwurst








Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 58 days
Last activity: 58 days
#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by godking
    They are getting fed, are housed, are allowed to practice thier religion. Besides not being able to actively train and plot on the overthrow of my nation, they are basically better off than they were before.

    I am officially speechless. The only way this could have been more jaw-dropping and patronizing is if you had referred to them as "towelheads" or similar.



Yeh no kiddin. Let the underaged terrorists go!! Free the TaliBabies!!



'But if one is struck by me only a little, that is far different, the stroke is a sharp thing and suddenly lays him lifeless, and that man's wife goes with cheeks torn in lamentation, and his children are fatherless, while he, staining the soil with his red blood, rots away, and there are more birds than women swarming about him.' Diomedes, The Iliad of Homer

Maiden RULES!!!
godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3717 days
Last activity: 3663 days
#12 Posted on
Yeh no kiddin. Let the underaged terrorists go!! Free the TaliBabies!!

So, what's your clever plan, then? Jail them for the rest of their lives? I mean, at some point you theoretically have to let them go, unless you've decided that they are automatically future terrorists - and that's one slippery fucking slope you've dug right there when you're imprisoning minors indefinitely with no access to legal counsel and for no stated reason.

Incidentally, the United States is also in clear violation of the UN Convention On The Rights Of The Child:

Article 37

States Parties shall ensure that:

[...]

(b) No child shall be deprived of his or her liberty unlawfully or arbitrarily. The arrest, detention or imprisonment of a child shall be in conformity with the law and shall be used only as a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate period of time;

(c) Every child deprived of liberty shall be treated with humanity and respect for the inherent dignity of the human person, and in a manner which takes into account the needs of persons of his or her age. In particular, every child deprived of liberty shall be separated from adults unless it is considered in the child's best interest not to do so and shall have the right to maintain contact with his or her family through correspondence and visits, save in exceptional circumstances;

(d) Every child deprived of his or her liberty shall have the right to prompt access to legal and other appropriate assistance, as well as the right to challenge the legality of the deprivation of his or her liberty before a court or other competent, independent and impartial authority, and to a prompt decision on any such action.


Except, whoops, the United States is one of only two countries in the world that refused to sign that treaty (the other being Somalia), so I guess I know where the government stands on that...
Ffej
Boudin rouge








Since: 15.1.02
From: Flatwoods, KY

Since last post: 2134 days
Last activity: 443 days
Y!:
#13 Posted on
So godking- if thats your real name- what do think we should do with these kids that if released would blow up up a bunch people? You talk about it being horrible, deplorable, et alt- but you have yet to offer an alternative. So what should we do with young terrosists in training who have been brought up to kill us?

Just wondering.



WIENER OF THE DAY! July 6, 2002!

Fear can sometimes be a useful emotion. For instance, let's say you're an astronaut on the moon and you fear that your partner has been turned into Dracula. The next time he goes out for the moon pieces, wham!, you just slam the door behind him and blast off. He might call you on the radio and say he's not Dracula, but you just say, "Think again, bat man."
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#14 Posted on
Thank God we did refuse to sign it. Therefore, that whole exercise in quoting it is useless. We are NOT violating that treaty, as it is not binding unto us.

I am sorry, but that whole "minor" definition is ethnocentric in the extreme. These are not 6 year old children we have imprisioned- these are adolescent males who have taken up arms against us. There is a world of difference between them, and the poor young children who were imprisoned because they would not submit to brainwashing.

I am all for letting them go, but the problem is, no one is stepping up and taking responsibility for them. What I want to see is their home nation step up and say "You have a number of our nationals imprisoned. We aknowledge that they have committed terrorist acts against your nation. We do not support these acts, and consider them criminal. We will try them and punish them accordingly. We will also root out their cells in our nation, in an effort to end future terrorist attacks." Without that, there is no reason to release these terrorists. So if we do, what then? Do we provide for their transport back to their home nation, where they would immediatly rejoin up with whatever terrorist group they belonged to?

In my eyes, once a young man (or woman, for that matter) takes up arms for a cause, they are making an adult decision and should be treated as such. Children stay at home under the protection of their monther. Adults fight for their own causes. An arbitrary "Age of Majority" is meaningless.

The United States did not randomly enter homes and pluck innocent children from their Mothers' arms. To even equate Hussein's imprisonment of those children to the young men we have imprisoned is another reason folks accuse many on the left as being "Anti-American." You have gone out of your way to find an obscure example of some purported "evil" this country is doing in order to claim that this war is wrong. "You have terrorists under the age of 18, therefore we should not condemn Hussein for imprisoning young children for not submitting to brainwashing." The latter is outright wrong. There is a degree of moral ambiguity in the former, I admit, but it is in no way evil. If anything, it deserves serious debate, not the outright rejection by the vocal left, who are not motivated by the well being of this nation, or the people who are victims of these terrorists, rather, a need to regain political power.

Yeah, I said it. And until I hear something other than "we should do nothing, because America (or the right, your pick) is so evil," and viable alternatives that address the issue at hand, instead of blanket rejections, I will continue to feel that way.





Still on the Shelf #5
Crip
Mettwurst








Since: 1.3.03

Since last post: 3706 days
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#15 Posted on
Anyone remember what your judgment was like when you were under 16?

Imagine for a moment if you will, all of a sudden you find your homeland being attacked by invading forces and your father and older brothers instruct you/or you volunteer to fight along side them, does that make you a terrorist?

It would be extremely difficult to justify holding minors under the age of 16 without trial or representation, especially in the case of a war where these minors may not have had a choice but to take part.

On the other hand there is the argument, we can release them, but where will they go and who will take responsibility for them, but that is another matter entirely.



Stablewars.com - Fantasy Wrestling, It ain't no e-fed.
cokeman
Chorizo








Since: 12.4.03
From: nj (back from iraq)

Since last post: 3098 days
Last activity: 2888 days
#16 Posted on
Donít they judge minors all the time as adults in the us if they commit a big enough crime?



godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3717 days
Last activity: 3663 days
#17 Posted on
So godking- if thats your real name-

That's awfully cute, "Ffej".

what do think we should do with these kids that if released would blow up up a bunch people?

Let them go.

You can't prove that they would blow up a bunch of people. It's really that simple. Jailing people for crimes they might commit in the future is utterly deplorable, no matter what the motive, and completely at odds with the ideals upon which the United States was founded. Once you define a principle as absolute - like freedom of speech, freedom of information, or in this case right to representation - you just don't get to say "except in this case." That's the best thing about the Constitution.

The logical extension of your proposal is to jail all Muslims in the United States, because they might become fundamentalist Islamic terrorists.

So what should we do with young terrosists in training who have been brought up to kill us?

See, and that's the other part - we have no idea if these minors are young terrorists in training, or merely stupid kids who wanted to play soldier, or, hell, family members of other "enemy combatants" that the government just wanted to hold on to, because the US government won't tell anybody why they're holding them.

Pool-Boy:

Thank God we did refuse to sign it.

Yeah, because somebody might have otherwise forced the United States to observe the rights of children! Lucky America!

Therefore, that whole exercise in quoting it is useless. We are NOT violating that treaty, as it is not binding unto us.

But the US is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, which forbid the taking of minors as prisoners of war.

To even equate Hussein's imprisonment of those children to the young men we have imprisoned is another reason folks accuse many on the left as being "Anti-American."

Fine. Let's leave Hussein out of it entirely. I only mentioned it because the "jailing of children" rhetoric was so prevalent from the right in the past few weeks and the hypocrisy was particularly galling to me.

The United States is detaining minors for an indefinite period of time, refusing to explain why these minors are being detained, refusing to give these minors legal counsel, and claiming that since the minors are not being detained specifically on US soil, that the protections of United States law do not apply to them.

Defend that.

You have gone out of your way to find an obscure example of some purported "evil" this country is doing in order to claim that this war is wrong.

I didn't even mention the war. Hell, the war is over. Now I can get back to serious things, like George Bush trampling the United States Constitution - arguably the single most important document in the history of mankind - and its associated principles into the dirt.
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#18 Posted on
Eh. Soon, here, they'll be declared "Jim Henson's Unlawful Combatant Babies". Then we can do whatever we want to them, whenever we want, for however long we want. Because we're the US of A! We don't have to follow the rules! We're RICH!

(edited by Nate The Snake on 22.4.03 1907)


Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
cokeman
Chorizo








Since: 12.4.03
From: nj (back from iraq)

Since last post: 3098 days
Last activity: 2888 days
#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
    Eh. Soon, here, they'll be declared "Jim Henson's Unlawful Combatant Babies". Then we can do whatever we want to them, whenever we want, for however long we want. Because we're the US of A! We don't have to follow the rules! We're RICH!

    (edited by Nate The Snake on 22.4.03 1907)



That's a fucked up point of view.



Net Hack Slasher
Banger








Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

Since last post: 3401 days
Last activity: 1821 days
#20 Posted on

    Originally posted by Ffej
    So godking- if thats your real name- what do think we should do with these kids that if released would blow up up a bunch people? You talk about it being horrible, deplorable, et alt- but you have yet to offer an alternative. So what should we do with young terrosists in training who have been brought up to kill us?

    Just wondering.



Maybe they can work for the Bush administration. They'd fit right in.



cause there's limits to our liberties.
'Least I hope and pray that there are,
cause those liberal freaks go too far.

I'll crush all opposition to me
And I'll make Ted Kennedy pay
If he fights back, I'll say that he's gay
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