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The W - Pro Wrestling - They've killed Chris Jericho, as predicted (Page 3)
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Mettwurst








Since: 22.3.02

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#41 Posted on
Ahem -

Test: Mediocre worker crappy mic man was only over because of the angle. The instant he was asked to do anything on his own, he showed all the personality of an overcooked clam.

Tazz: When were they even trying with Tazz? Did I miss his botched main event push?

Rikishi: Hey, remember that match where at the end everyone figured Rikishi was a possible future main eventer? Who was that match against? The world champ at the time, though I can't precisely remember who...

Of course Rikishi is too much of a fatass to work a match longer than eight minutes and is death on the mic. So of course it's Vince's fault he tanked as a topcarder. Or maybe it's HHH's?

Angle: I don't know how the hell you're counting Undertaker or even Scott Hall or Kevin Nash as top card, but not Angle. Even with the nWo being pushed hard as a unit, Kurt still generally gets more mic time than all three of them combined, and I'd be more than happy putting money down that Angle gets the world title again before either of the Outsiders. Undertaker's got his feud with Flair and'll maybe get to job to HHH at Backlash, but no one considers him at the Austin/Rock/HHH level at this point.


    Originally posted by spf2119
    First off, exactly how many new stars has Vince created in the last few years? Let's look at the topcard right now and about when they came up to main event status:

    Steve Austin - 1997
    Rock - 1998
    HHH- 1999
    Undertaker - 1991
    Hulk Hogan - 1983
    Kevin Nash - 1994
    Scott Hall - 1992

    Seems the well has gotten a touch dry lately.

    As for the other point about wasted talent, I'm thinking about guys who at some point were on the "tipping point" where they could have fallen into the top card for good, or been yanked into the midcard forever. Now just because I name these guys doesn't mean I like them or wish they had gone to the top. Just examples:

    Test - he was white hot and logic should have dictated a huge feud with HHH. IIRC, they had one match, HHH squashed him like a bug (gee, how familiar). Test has never come close to that point, because he was made such a bitch.

    Tazz - Perhaps a victim of bad timing, but still, a guy who for whatever reasons crowds always have reacted hugely to. But he was jobbed into oblivion and never truly recovered.

    Rikishi - Yes, people pop big for his ass. But there was a point in early 2000-mid 2000 when Rikishi was one big win over a top heel away from becoming a permanent part of the topcard and more than just the funny fat guy who dances.

    Kurt Angle - I put Kurt in here because I don't believe that there's much chance of successfully rehabbing him back to topcard status in the modern day WWF. He's always going to end up being the top of the bottom or bottom of the top. Capable of a fill-in at the top, but never really able to stick at the tip top. He could have had he gone over in a great way in the HHH/Steph/Angle triangle, but when HHH/Steph walked together with Angle looking beaten and confused in the ring, it was game, set match.

    I have no doubt others will be able to contribute their own case studies of misuse by Vince. Because while Vince wants to make money, he also wants everyone to know he's doing it HIS way and his alone. Anyone who doesn't quite fit into his picture of what SHOULD be a main eventer fails, unless they somehow by sheer force of will get so over they can change the face of wrestling, and yes I'm looking at YOU! Steve Austin.


spf
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Since: 2.1.02
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#42 Posted on
You say To-MAY-to, I say ketchup:

Test - Above average worker for someone his size. Seemed to be quite good at getting the crowd on his side during the angle. Not the most electrifying interview on earth, but then have you listened to a HHH interview lately?

Rikishi - No, rather I remember him taking a goofy gimmick and making himself so credible that he was able to make Scott Taylor and Brian Christopher viable parts of the hottest Raw main event ever. Enough stamina to work 3 matches at KOTR a couple years ago. Certainly in no worse shape than UT, Nash, Hogan. Gave one of the strongest interviews in a long time with the "I was the driver" interview.

Tazz - He got an enormous buildup, but I'll give you part of his was simply bad luck, what with the Radicalz coming days later. Though being booked to be a scrappy fighter against Big Bossman and Bull Buchanan didn't help.

Angle - I'll make a bet for you. Angle won't see the belt before UT or Hogan, and will not hold it for a stretch of more than 4 weeks in the next 18 months. I accept cash only by the way.



"You used it to shove your miserable daughter down our throats week in and week out...not anymore!" - Ric Flair gives me hope, Raw 3/18/02

"I thought it was cool how HHH just tossed Jericho out of the ring and made him vanish, possibly into another dimension, at the end of the match." - Dr. Unlikely says the funniest thing I've ever read on Wienerville.

twoelitistsnobs, filling all your bitter pop culture reviewing needs
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Mettwurst








Since: 22.3.02

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#43 Posted on

    Originally posted by spf2119
    You say To-MAY-to, I say ketchup:

    Test - Above average worker for someone his size. Seemed to be quite good at getting the crowd on his side during the angle. Not the most electrifying interview on earth, but then have you listened to a HHH interview lately?



Yeah, he sounds, you know, believable. I'll grant you your average HHH interview these days is boring as hell, but at least he sounds like he legitimately believes what he says. Watching Test attempt to emote is laughable. He sounds like the understudy in a high school play. And again, Test was over because he lucked into an angle where all he had to do was stand around and be pretty. The second he was asked to do more than that, he fell flat on his face (and broke his nose). He's a good worker for his size, yes, but nothing spectacular enough to make up for his total lack of personality.




    Rikishi - No, rather I remember him taking a goofy gimmick and making himself so credible that he was able to make Scott Taylor and Brian Christopher viable parts of the hottest Raw main event ever. Enough stamina to work 3 matches at KOTR a couple years ago. Certainly in no worse shape than UT, Nash, Hogan. Gave one of the strongest interviews in a long time with the "I was the driver" interview.



Your kidding right? He was a dancing fatass with a neat finisher (before it got banned) until they gave him an incredibly well-booked match with an "I'm still willing to look vulnerable at this point" HHH, and the fans dug into him big time. His working 3 matches killed KotR that year, his "I was the driver" interview was good for him but nothing special (his "hey I'm a Samoan thug" voice is just annoying), and his match with Austin bit ass (though I'll admit that was largely due to Austin still recovering from his time off), and the only way to salvage the angle was to bring HHH in, effectively killing the brewing face turn and feud with Angle. Possibly he could have been something if they'd tried to ME him as a face instead of as a heel, but I'm pretty sure the novelty would have worn off right quick.




    Tazz - He got an enormous buildup, but I'll give you part of his was simply bad luck, what with the Radicalz coming days later. Though being booked to be a scrappy fighter against Big Bossman and Bull Buchanan didn't help.



I'll grant you Tazz could have been more than he is, but since he was never really pushed anywhere near the main event, I don't see how he fits into this discussion.




    Angle - I'll make a bet for you. Angle won't see the belt before UT or Hogan, and will not hold it for a stretch of more than 4 weeks in the next 18 months. I accept cash only by the way.



Ahem. Way to completely sidestep my argument. I never even mentioned Hogan, and I take it you're conceding my point about Nash and Hall?

Yeah, Hogan's getting a bigger push than Angle right now, that tends to happen when people decide en masse to spontaneously root for someone against their number one face. But I'll be honestly surprised if Hogan gets a title reign of any length, though. Same with Undertaker, who's pretty much reached "added attraction" status at this point.

How's this? Angle's total time as champion over the next two years will be greater than either Hogan's or the Undertaker's.
NEO
Salami








Since: 15.1.02
From: Texas

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#44 Posted on
I knew Y2J was screwed when he 1st won the titles. But in all fairness, he ALMOST pulled it off. Just when he was starting to gain a little credit (with the HHH beatdown w/sledgehammer), they take the titles from him. I've always said that he'd make a better IC champion or contender.

Now I think about it, wasn't he a co-champion at one time? That was real stupid. I think when Y2J was calling Stone Cold a slut, he was really talking about himself.

As far as the other guys mentioned:
It's hard to argue about Rikishi, gotta call a spade a spade. I'm just glad he finally got a chance to show his stuff (not like that). He did the best he could do, I mean how many guys could get Too Cool in a main event, much less closing the show! He might do better if he got some kind of real wrestling gear. AND STOP DOING THE STINKFACE.

As for Test, at the risk of sounding like a dork, I like Test, I am a Test fan. May not be many but I see the potential in the guy. He moves really well for a big guy. That's the only guy I seen over 6'6 that can do a top rope elbow w/o killing anyone. His interviews kinda suck, but maybe that'll change since they are starting to bring managers back. Let someone else talk for him.

Kurt Angle, I don't think he's a midcarder at all. Not even an easy win. To me, he's like the Rock in a sense that he doesn't need a belt to get over. Not saying that he will never get the title again, but he really doesn't need it. Maybe he'll have a real angle now that Brock Lesnar is on TV.

Angle could really get him over big-time. I'm begging for them to work together. An amateur wrestling match to see what Angle really has, or a Tag Team to give Lesnar some personality sorta like Snow and Blackman.

Lesnar is one of the only reasons why I still watch wrestling. And of course Vince, he knows he's goin to hell and doesn't give a damn. I love that guy.



"NOW YOU GET YOUR WHININ ASS OUTTA HERE!!" Sid Vicious after slapping Bret Hart
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
Some people not mentioned:

Chris Benoit- He may not have been World Champion yet, but the WWF certainly made him a viable main eventer, both as a heel (when he won the WWF title against the Rock before a Dusty finish) and as a face, where he had little chance at the time of winning the title but that is basically because everyone knew that heel stone cold would hold it a little longer.

Chris Jericho- You know, the man this thread was about originally? He is fresh off his first World Title run, one very similar to heel Angle's first run over a year ago, very much like heel Rock's first run 3 years ago, and going way back, a lot like Bret Hart's first run in late 1992 (minus the "fighting champion" deal Bret had because Hart was a face). What will determine Jericho's future is how they follow up on the title run, and now it is too soon to make that judgment.

Kane- Came to the main event in 1998, had a one-day title reign, and has been an off-and-on main eventer for four years since.

Just remember, just because they are not regualar World Title contenders yet does not mean they are not main eventers.

Now, regarding some guys already mentioned:

Test- What, exactly, does Test bbring to the table? What does he do that we haven't seen in Kane, Taker, or Nash? He has to find something unique in his character, and maybe then he can live up to the potential the WWF seems to think he has.

Kurt Angle- Angle is still a newcomer. He's only been with the Fed for a little over two years, and he already is a two time champ, one as a heel and one as a face. He has already has accomplished more than most wrestlers in their entire career, and he still has several more years ahead of him. I bet he gets another title run as a heel before the year is out.

Tazz- Why is this man in this conversation? He was the top guy in a promotion full of relative nobodies. Sure he got lots of buildup coming to the fed, but there is no overlooking the fact that the man is 5 feet tall.

Rikishi- Do you watch the guy? Do you want that same boring routine in our main events each week? Your typical Rikishi match:
Get beat up for a while
Make a comeback and get your opponent down in the corner
Stinkface
Result of match (irrelevant; Rikishi is there for stinkface, not wins)
Dance



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
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Mettwurst








Since: 19.3.02
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#46 Posted on
Without getting into the debate about the others mentioned (for the record I think all of the ones list had some level of potential at some point) here are a few other not mentioned:

Al Snow - Does anybody forget the fact that he is incredible on the mic, an above average worker... and had a corny, but OVER gimmick in ECW. With a little tweaking, not the death touch it was given, Snow could've done a lot coming back.

Bradshaw - Remember how they kept saying he was going to be getting this big singles push, it seemed like over a year ago? Well, the split has now happened and maybe he'll get a push... and then again...

Any Cruiserweight used in the Cruiserweight Division - Do I need to give an explination

Dudley Boyz - Am I the only person who thinks that even though they have done a lot in the WWF since leaving ECW, they could have done so much more.

Raven - Somebody should write a book on how this guy gets underutilized. Awesome promo guy, very strong worker, the only thing I can think of is that he is on somebody's bad side, but that can't be true because there are never backstage kliq's in the WWF...

Perry Saturn - Great tag team wrestler killed with one word... "Moppy!"

Val Venis - This guy COULD be the Rick Rude of the new millenium. Instead he's become another comedy routine.



Mr. Flugelman: Do you know what "nada" means?
Dusty: Isn't that a light chicken gravy?
- Three Amigos (1986)
Ubermonkeys
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Since: 2.1.02
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#47 Posted on
Test- What, exactly, does Test bbring to the table? What does he do that we haven't seen in Kane, Taker, or Nash? He has to find something unique in his character, and maybe then he can live up to the potential the WWF seems to think he has.

Well, see, he has no character anymore.

When Test was playing the All The Women Want Me (a gimmick fresh from Tough Enough 2: The Casting Special!) I actually found it to be pretty amusing because he'd find a new line or way to compliment himself that was just so (intentionally) cheesy, you couldn't help but laugh. Well, I couldn't.

Debaser... we need to talk. ("And again, Test was over because he lucked into an angle where all he had to do was stand around and be pretty.")

Have you SEEN the man? To me, his downright ugliness also made his come-on lines all that much funnier.

I think it's hard to blame a guy for not doing anything with his chracter when he's not given the opportunity to do so. It doesn't help that he'll no longer have Booker to play off of after the draft, though it did seem like T was becoming Angle's partner of choice- another team we won't be seeing again thanks to the Brand Extension.

And for those who say it's too soon to tell how Jericho's going to be handled now, Smackdown **spoiler** below....




HE BEATS UP FREAKIN' LITA TONIGHT.





Which doesn't seem like such a great endorsement. Unless he's going nuts or something.



I'M A TOOL, PLEASE KICK ME IN THE JUNK


Kokolums
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Since: 21.2.02

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#48 Posted on
You guys all forgot a rather -significant- main eventer
Vince created: Vince McMahon. You know, the guy who's
been #1 heel in the WWF since 1998 (with a short face run
prior to WM 16).

Notice that when the heels Rock, HHH, and Y2J (Foley?) won
their belts, it was with Vince helping. Because -he's- the
#1 heel. Angle, if I recall correctly, is the only heel to
win the belt on his own but has since become Vince's new
man servant replacing Brisco and Patterson.

Its -all- about Vince. The whole "attitude" era is rather
misnamed. Its the Evil owner Vince era. Its an era now.
This split is nothing more than a device for Vince to put
himself over yet again. This era has seen Vince
systematically go thru all permutations of face-heel feuds
between the 4 McMahons. That is what this era has been
about. Now that he's finished that, it seems perhaps the
next set of permutations is to feature 2/4 McMahons at
a time. First up was Vince and Steph. Now Steph is
removed and its Vince and Linda. Enjoy your s***
sandwich.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    Originally posted by Kokolums
    You guys all forgot a rather -significant- main eventer
    Vince created: Vince McMahon. You know, the guy who's
    been #1 heel in the WWF since 1998 (with a short face run
    prior to WM 16).

    Notice that when the heels Rock, HHH, and Y2J (Foley?) won
    their belts, it was with Vince helping. Because -he's- the
    #1 heel. Angle, if I recall correctly, is the only heel to
    win the belt on his own but has since become Vince's new
    man servant replacing Brisco and Patterson.

    Its -all- about Vince. The whole "attitude" era is rather
    misnamed. Its the Evil owner Vince era. Its an era now.
    This split is nothing more than a device for Vince to put
    himself over yet again. This era has seen Vince
    systematically go thru all permutations of face-heel feuds
    between the 4 McMahons. That is what this era has been
    about. Now that he's finished that, it seems perhaps the
    next set of permutations is to feature 2/4 McMahons at
    a time. First up was Vince and Steph. Now Steph is
    removed and its Vince and Linda. Enjoy your s***
    sandwich.



While this is true, I don't think it is a bad thing. Here's why:

1)While they had Vince's help, recent main event heels still first developed their own heat, independent of Vince.
2)Vince gives some of the best interviews in the WWF
3)Vince is a smart man. Steve Austin doesn't want to look bad, so he goes home pouting. When it's time for Vince to look bad or get his ass kicked, he is more than willing to do it (see the match with Flair, the cage match with Austin, etc). He, more than any of the wrestlers, know his role on the show.



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
Travis
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Since: 7.3.02
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#50 Posted on

    Originally posted by Ubermonkeys
    And for those who say it's too soon to tell how Jericho's going to be handled now, Smackdown **spoiler** below....




    HE BEATS UP FREAKIN' LITA TONIGHT.





    Which doesn't seem like such a great endorsement. Unless he's going nuts or something.


In a perfect world that would constitute a face turn. I mean, it gets him points with *me*.



"And the lesson is...never try."-HJS

I can now say I'm associated with Tom Zenk. I can finally die happy.
Kokolums
Linguica








Since: 21.2.02

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#51 Posted on
While this is true, I don't think it is a bad thing. Here's why:

1)While they had Vince's help, recent main event heels still first developed their own heat, independent of Vince.


I agree.


2)Vince gives some of the best interviews in the WWF


I don't think there's really much justification for the
promoter putting himself over for 4-5 years, especially
when the main-event pool is so crowded. Do you realize
he's essentially burying Angle, a wrestler in his prime,
just to put himself over?


3)Vince is a smart man. Steve Austin doesn't want to look bad, so he goes home pouting. When it's time for Vince to look bad or get his ass kicked, he is more than willing to do it (see the match with Flair, the cage match with Austin, etc). He, more than any of the wrestlers, know his role on the show


Ah, but that's just it. Vince -never- gets his true
comeuppance. He's keeps coming back and its the same old
Vince. Instead, Vince allows angles to spiral down into
oblivion. Vince should have been defeated by Austin
2-3 years ago and he should've been off TV or repackaged.
Instead, Vince keeps winning and its been ruining every
storyline for the past 2 years. Vince is -afraid-. He
wants to squeeze every last drop out of the evil owner
Vince angle. Its gonna kill the fed because he doesn't
know how to switch it off. The solution to everything is
"add McMahons" to him.

Here's a way to illustrate the situation:

Austin vs VKM was an angle. Austin the wrestler was
fighting evil owner Vince. 4 years later, Vince is
still the evil owner, unaffected by Austin. Austin's star
has diminished since then. He is no longer the focus of
the fed. He is no longer the fed champ. Evil owner Vince
has essentially brushed him aside. Vince won the feud.
Vince put himself over.

I don't see how Vince jobs to Flair in this split angle
if he wouldn't to Austin.

(edited by Kokolums on 28.3.02 0904)
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 103 days
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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
The Austin/McMahon feud was played out in different phases:

1)Vince doesn't want Austin as champ. Vince got what was coming to him when Austin kicked his ass then beat the Rock for the title (the one thing Vince didn't want) at Wrestlemania 15. Round 1 to Austin.

2)Vince briefly turns face, helping Austin retain the title at Backlash 1999. Later, Vince is revealed to be the higher power, as he was just trying to screw Austin and get back at him for winning round 1. Austin loses the title to Undertaker, but gets it back and then forces Vince to leave WWF TV by beating Taker at Fully Loaded. Round 2: Leaning towards Austin, but it's a push because Vince was back on TV fighting Triple H within 2 months.

3)Austin turns heel to side with Vince. Not really much to say, but Austin was basically Vince's bitch here. Round 3 to Vince.

4)Vince brings in the NWO, who have stated that their goal is to destroy Steve Austin. Round 4 is undecided.



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
Texas Kelly
Lap cheong








Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

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#53 Posted on
I'm gonna preface this post by saying I'm not the biggest Scott Keith fan in the world, but I do read his stuff regularly. I would like to draw your attention to this paragraph in his rant on tonight's Smackdown, and to pay attention in particular to the parts I've highlighted:

- Chris Jericho v. Matt Hardy. To the shock of no one, guess who got all the blame for the HHH-Jericho feud sucking (hint: Jericho) and guess who got all the credit for "saving" it (hint: Stephanie)? So the bookers job him out for months before winning the title, put the title on him via massive interference, make it known that he can't even beat Rikishi without cheating and/or getting outside help, turn him into Stephanie's coffee boy leading into the biggest show of the year, job him cleanly to HHH at said show, and thus it's JERICHO'S fault that HHH couldn't get over as a babyface. Keep that sort of logic in mind if you?re ever in line for a job with the WWF - it'll serve you well. Matt attacks to start and pounds away, and catapults Jericho to set up a yodelling legdrop for two. You'd think he?d be so upset with Jericho that he wouldn't have time to go "AAAAAAaaaaah!" before the legdrop, but there it was. Jericho hangs him in the Tree of Woe and stomps away, but Lita comes in with the rana and Matt gets some uranage-type-thing for two. Jericho reverses a sunset flip into the Walls, but Matt shoves him into Lita my accident. Jericho goes low and into the Walls again, and Matt taps at 2:12. Maybe they should have done that sort of thing WHILE HE WAS CHAMPION. *

This is so damned spot-on it makes me cry, and it sums up PERFECTLY what went wrong in the HHH/Jericho feud, why Jericho is NOT going to turn out fine (it's going to take him MONTHS to recover in my view, and that's IF the Fed gives him the chance to), WHY I'm so goddamned-pissed off at the Fed and why I'm frustrated at wrestling in general right now.

And UNDERTAKER is allegedly getting the title shot at Backlash.

Okay, Vince, today's game is called Russian Roulette... with one key difference. Five bullets instead of one.

(edited by Texas Kelly on 28.3.02 2232)

Being The Bookerman (No Way Out)
Grading The Bookerman (No Way Out)
Worship Your God And Mine

CRZ NOTABLE QUOTABLE OF THE MONTH:
UNDERTAKER: The Hell you were threatened with as a child is no longer an option, it is a reality - a living, breathing reality. And you all are right in the middle of it. Yes, Hell has relocated to Earth.
CRZ: My friends, *Hell* is watching THIS crap take place before my eyes.
-- WWF Raw is War, 1/11/99

deadbeater
Morcilla








Since: 12.2.02
From: Parts unknown

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#54 Posted on
You guys are aware that for the past six months, Angle, UT, Rock, and Austin, the so-called big 4, have but a Hardcore title among them. The WWF are rotating stars to see who can get the fan's interest.
cfgb
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Ottawa, Ontario

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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.87
You guys are aware that for the past six months, Angle, UT, Rock, and Austin, the so-called big 4, have but a Hardcore title among them.

Over the past six months The Rock has held the WCW World Heavyweight Title twice, Steve Austin has held the WWF World Heavyweight Title twice, and Kurt Angle has held the WCW United States Heavyweight Title as well as the WWF World Heavyweight Title.




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spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#56 Posted on
TexasKelly, you know had Jericho just done a better job of running with the character of completely helpless wrestler running errands for Steph, maybe his reign would have been more of a success. Had he shown a bit more fire while tying up Lucy to that bumper, or while getting Steph hand lotion, the crowds would have gotten into it more. He blew his chance at being job boy to the stars, and it's just right that someone else gets that chance. Poor HHH is going to have to work that much harder now to get people to root for him. Maybe what they should do is make Jericho fight HHH in a 3 way which is all about Steph and HHH and what will happen between them, and at the end Jericho can be thrown out of the ring like stinky refuse and never appear again (possibly due to interdimensional travel)...oh wait, they did that too.



"You used it to shove your miserable daughter down our throats week in and week out...not anymore!" - Ric Flair gives me hope, Raw 3/18/02

"I thought it was cool how HHH just tossed Jericho out of the ring and made him vanish, possibly into another dimension, at the end of the match." - Dr. Unlikely says the funniest thing I've ever read on Wienerville.

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Believe it was the latter though some say he wanted to go to the WWE, but he couldn't due to the lawsuit. FWIW, Pope and Sarita have been removed from the TNA roster page, but so was Devon at one time.
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