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The W - Pro Wrestling - Theory
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PowerPB13
Morcilla








Since: 25.4.02
From: Belleville, IL USA

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 23 hours
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#1 Posted on
Was thinking, gee, WHY are the ratings down?

I remember a time when the WWF always pushed the strong face champion(on the thought line "send the fans home happy"), while WCW always pushed the strong HEEL champion(on the thought line "fans will pay to see him get beat up").

Guess which company's plan worked better(hint, the one that's STILL AROUND).

But what have the past few months been? On the Raw side(except for one month), heel Triple H reigning. On the Smackdown side, heel Brock, then heel Big Show, THEN heel Angle.

Maybe, just maybe, people are tired of waiting around for the big face win.

The 2000 and 2001 WrestleManias were the start of the downturn in that regard. WrestleMania had ALWAYS been the ultimate blowoff show, the show where, at least in the main event, the face won and all was right with the world. Even if it was a change of pace and unpredictable and a SWERVE~! and stuff, it hurt the fan perception of WrestleMania in that regard.

On the Smackdown side, anyway, things are likely to go right for Mania(superface Brock Lesnar beating heel Kurt Angle for the title). On the Raw side...well, I honestly don't know where they're headed once they get past Triple H vs. Scott Steiner.

The rumor I heard for the Raw side(I already forget the source) was that it would somehow end up as Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels, AGAIN. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing that match at Mania, but NOT with the belt involved...

-Patrick
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fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3178 days
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#2 Posted on
Could it be the fact that the shows have sucked more times then not for the past year? That they change directions at the snap of the fingers and pretty much say, the time you invested in these angles means nothing to us? Maybe its been beaten into their heads since 2000 that every single rising face they get behind never goes over HHH? That they're just wasting their time?

PowerPB13
Morcilla








Since: 25.4.02
From: Belleville, IL USA

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 23 hours
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#3 Posted on
Well, if you want to look at it THAT way...I apologize for attempting to pose an intelligent observation.

-Patrick

(edited by PowerPB13 on 30.12.02 1646)
TheCow
Landjager








Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

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Y!:
#4 Posted on
That is a good point, one I hadn't considered. Possibly they got too comfortable with the Rocky-esque "constant beating of the face" that led to Rock's huge babyface status (as the man up against impossible odds, etc.). However, maybe they haven't realized yet that it won't work with the talent they have now. (Or that it hasn't come around yet.)

Now, I can see Brock filling in a monster face role as the champion post-Mania. As for the RAW side... I'm not sure either. I can only hope that it's not Steiner or Michaels (Michaels because he's just going to collaspe in the ring one day, Steiner because I'd rather see him snap at a time when he's not champion), and I can definately hope it's not HHH (but he's not a face anyway, point moot). If built properly, they can make Booket or RVD into that face post-Wrestlemania, but I'm not sure if they'll be able to do it. It's only a few months, and RVD is still up near the front of the card (the last few times I've seen Raw, feel free to correct me). Booker's still got the tag belt, so that's out of the question.







Which Neglected Mario Character Are You?

Captain Ferret
Chipolata








Since: 14.9.02
From: Manchester

Since last post: 430 days
Last activity: 42 min.
#5 Posted on
Interesting theory. Only trouble is the fed died on its arse in the early 90's whilst trying to recapture what they had in Hulk Hogan with guys like Lex Luger. Neither method of championship match booking will take you very far if you don't have the right guys to play the roles.
Firecracker
Salami








Since: 26.6.02
From: Miami, FL

Since last post: 3497 days
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#6 Posted on

    Originally posted by Captain Ferret
    Neither method of championship match booking will take you very far if you don't have the right guys to play the roles.


I think they have the right guy in Brock Lesnar to do the monster face run. He's been getting crazy pops and is way over with the fans.



Yo, it's me, it's me, it's (points to self) P-A-B!
BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

Since last post: 3294 days
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ICQ:  
#7 Posted on
I think Ferret's got it right, it depends entirely on who is playing the role. I don't think the difference is the fact that the heels are champs or that the face isn't getting the big win, it's the fact that they haven't positioned anyone to be that top face that chases the big win. When Rock was the Corporate Champion, Austin's chase of the title was a huge success. The same could be said for Foley and then Rock's chase of HHH in the first half of 2000.

The heel champion isn't a problem. Promoters have believed for decades that heel champions make good business (ie. more money in the chase), you need look no further than the NWA title lineage of the 1980s to see that. When it doesn't work is when you don't have the strong faces chasing the title, and that's what WWE (at least Raw) doesn't have. I think you'll find come WrestleMania that Lesnar chasing Angle worked out just fine. The problem is that on Raw nobody has been built up as a credible challenger to Triple H. I have no doubt that the prospect of seeing HHH finally go down (losing the title for a month only to win it right back doesn't count) would generate interest --> the problem is that fans have no reason to believe that any of their Raw favourites will do it. Neither RVD nor Booker T. nor anyone else has been given any kind of real build as a top challenger. When Austin ('99) or Foley/Rock ('00) were chasing a heel champion they were conditioned such that it felt like it was only a matter of getting the shot and they would win the big one. No one believes for a second that anyone is going to win the big one from Triple H.

Having one dominant person in the company who is a country mile ahead of everyone else does not work. It worked once, in the 1980s with Hulk Hogan. That only worked because it was Hogan people paid to see. Wrestling fans have never paid to see the heel. They pay to see the heel lose. If there's no reason to think that's going to happen, no one pays and no one watches.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 19 hours
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54

    Having one dominant person in the company who is a country mile ahead of everyone else does not work. It worked once, in the 1980s with Hulk Hogan. That only worked because it was Hogan people paid to see. Wrestling fans have never paid to see the heel. They pay to see the heel lose. If there's no reason to think that's going to happen, no one pays and no one watches.


You could say that to a much lesser extent, this also worked with Bill Goldberg.



"If you go out with a girl and they say she has a great personality, she's ugly. If they tell you a guy works hard, he can't play a lick. Same thing." -- Charles Barkley
joecollins
Chorizo








Since: 2.1.02
From: Lititz, PA

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#9 Posted on
I think on the Raw side of things, Booker T just has to get a shot at the World Title come 'Mania and take it. I can't imagine them doing anything else (which of course means they will).



http://www.joecollins.net/
BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

Since last post: 3294 days
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ICQ:  
#10 Posted on
I don't agree, for two reasons. First, Goldberg's character may have been dominant, but the only time during his push when he was involved in the company's predominant angle was heading into Starrcade '98 when he lost the championship to the booker. He may have been the most popular character but Hogan's storylines (Rodman/Malone, Jay Leno, The Warrior) always received more attention than Goldberg's feuds (Hennig, Giant, Page) at any given time.

Second, let's say for the sake of argument that Goldberg was the dominant guy in WCW in 1998-99 in the same vein that Hogan owned the WWF in the 80s --> it was during this period that the WWF surpassed WCW for good. Was that Goldberg's fault? No. But the way he was used, ultimately, didn't work, because WCW fell to #2 during that time.

I think the Goldberg situation could be well summed up by something Eric Bischoff said on Off The Record in February 1998 (the same day he bet the host five bucks that the WWF would never pass WCW in the ratings again). Keeping in mind that this was right when Steve Austin was starting to hit stride and win his first WWF title, Bischoff said that Austin was only a big fish in a small pond and would never be more than a midcard player in WCW. Stated otherwise, Bischoff ignored the fact that Austin was unbelievably popular because in his eyes alone Austin couldn't main event. This is quite similar to what happened with Goldberg. Despite his overwhelming popularity and the fact that he did get the belt, Goldberg was stuck in the midcard. Bischoff completely ignored what the fans were telling him they wanted because he himself wanted something else (Hogan). I suppose if you want to make this relevant to the initial point of this threat, the WWF is doing the same thing to a lesser extent. While I don't know that Booker T. or RVD would ever be as popular as Goldberg was at his peak, they are the most popular guys the company has, possibly on either show (with the exception of Lesnar). And yet, they remain in the midcard beneath a guy (HHH) that the boss loves and has decided to push despite the fans clearly saying they'd rather have something else.

Chalk that up to another WCW mistake that Vince refuses to learn from, I suppose.

(edited by BigVitoMark on 30.12.02 2257)
Mild Mannered Madman
Toulouse








Since: 1.3.02
From: Westminster, CA

Since last post: 385 days
Last activity: 103 days
#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    Having one dominant person in the company who is a country mile ahead of everyone else does not work. It worked once, in the 1980s with Hulk Hogan. That only worked because it was Hogan people paid to see. Wrestling fans have never paid to see the heel. They pay to see the heel lose. If there's no reason to think that's going to happen, no one pays and no one watches.


*ahem*
Bruno Sammartino
Bob Backlund




Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.74

    Originally posted by Mild Mannered Madman

      Originally posted by BigVitoMark
      Having one dominant person in the company who is a country mile ahead of everyone else does not work. It worked once, in the 1980s with Hulk Hogan. That only worked because it was Hogan people paid to see. Wrestling fans have never paid to see the heel. They pay to see the heel lose. If there's no reason to think that's going to happen, no one pays and no one watches.


    *ahem*
    Bruno Sammartino
    Bob Backlund



You can add Austin to this list also. YES, Austin was a heel but the fans made him a face.





You are Silver Surfer!

redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 395 days
Last activity: 395 days
#13 Posted on

    Originally posted by Captain Ferret
    Interesting theory. Only trouble is the fed died on its arse in the early 90's whilst trying to recapture what they had in Hulk Hogan with guys like Lex Luger. Neither method of championship match booking will take you very far if you don't have the right guys to play the roles.






But remember: Luger was never the champ. Yokozuna was having the longest heel run by a champ since Billy Graham at the time (look through WWWF/WWF history at the time, up until Yoko, Graham was the only heel champ to last more than a month with the belt.) The NWA Champ was a heel for the primary reason that he would defend the belts in other territories. Now, if your in Florida, will a face world champ defending against Kevin Sullivan make money, or a heel against Dusty Rhodes. A heel in Texas (yes, I know Adams had a match with Flair in World Class, exception that proves the rule, and both were heels anyway) facing a traveling face world champ would not draw much. Heel Flair or Race coming in to face a Von Erich boy would draw big money though.
Vince's target audience was trained to see a face world champ overcome the odds to win and retain the belt, and if a heel won it, it would be moved to the next long term face champ: (Bruno/Morales/Bruno/Backlund/Hogan/Savage/Hogan/Warrior/Hogan, with only Graham being a substantial champ in between) and the crowd would see how that champ could manage to hold the belt against all odds. Long term heel champs break the mold of what the company's fan base was accustomed to.



I want you to know, I agree with everything I've just said.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3178 days
Last activity: 3178 days
#14 Posted on
*cough* Diesel *cough*

That was the last attempt at it really and we all know how that one turned out.
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 1 hour
Last activity: 3 min.
AIM:  
#15 Posted on
WrestleMania was originally established, and was for many years, the event where all of WWE's storylines payed off and sent the audience home happy. In the more recent years, WWE hasn't concluded or resolved many of their storylines and has instead gone for the "tradition sucks" approach, trying to bring in some new era. Well, those "new eras" have sucked.

I think the heel finish to WrestleMania 2K was definitely the "Jump The Shark" moment for the WWF. About a month ago, Dr. Unlikely gave probably the best description of all of the elements involved to make that moment such a colossal striking blow to the WWF. That post can be accessed here.

The fans are still waiting for their payoff. Isn't that pathetic?

Of course, it's more than just WM2K. The course of WWE has gone off on such a tangent where they make mistakes weekly, and I see no sign of things getting back onto any path to success. Brock Lesnar may be getting big pops now, but that doesn't mean he has a character that will end up being marketable in the longrun.

I like Lesnar, but he's not that big of a deal. Lesnar, to me, is just another Goldberg. A big guy positioned by the promoters who beats up a lot of people and gains momentum until he burns out. The fact that Brock's only aiming for 1/2 of two world titles also takes away from his story.

The only difference I see is that Lesnar has an amateur background and that Goldberg had better connections to Hollwyood. You tell me who the bigger star is. :)
Dahak
Frankfurter








Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 1942 days
Last activity: 1595 days
#16 Posted on

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Could it be the fact that the shows have sucked more times then not for the past year? That they change directions at the snap of the fingers and pretty much say, the time you invested in these angles means nothing to us? Maybe its been beaten into their heads since 2000 that every single rising face they get behind never goes over HHH? That they're just wasting their time?




I think a big problem with all wrestling in the last 5 years is the internet. Not the IRC but that the feds read the wrestling websites. Now WCW was the worst about this. Killing angles 2 weeks later because they sucked. Sure they sucked but killing them and replacing them with another different crappy angle made things worse.
HHH is a different problem. He is banging the bosses daughter. He was a good wrestler 2 years ago and could really help out the company and still be #1 or at worst #2. But he always comes out on top. Lose a match to someone other than his pot smoking buddies or La Roca every once in a while.
I mean look how they made RVD look like a total douche. He couldn't beat HHH with HBK cheating for him. They could have let RVD win the match then have Bischoff strip him off the #1 contendor spot or something. Then HHH would have a feud for the next 2 months. But now we have a crippled champ with a feud with a crippled challenger. When roids clash. God help us.



Marge I am just trying to get into heaven not run for Jesus.
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 395 days
Last activity: 395 days
#17 Posted on

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    *cough* Diesel *cough*

    That was the last attempt at it really and we all know how that one turned out.









Actually Michaels pre-lost smile was the last shot they took at it, as they had him going against all odds to overcome the 4,393,848 people attacking him in Syracuse to become champ, then going over bigger guys for the better part of the year. Of course, this did almost as well for business as the Diesel World Title Run of Cyanide.



I want you to know, I agree with everything I've just said.
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Instead of "Will Jessie lose her smile" how about Jessie grow a backbone and NOT run off to the bathroom and start cying because Ivory told her to stop smiling like a moron. Ugh, I hope she gets eliminated and fast For next week...
- Busyman14, Tough Enough 2: 7.3.02 (2002)
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